Same as 7 million dollars for 30 sec air time for commercial during Super Bowl, ridiculous.

Promotion probably plays a bigger role in enabling profit than engine, though.

Whether it should may be a different issue.

Discovery is a major reason why so many people use Steam.

That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever. They even pioneered returns after you played the game...

As a user, I've never once been mad at Steam.

The only thing I get mad at Steam about is that the client updates (baseless accusation incoming) WAY too often and/or desperately needs to have some sort of incremental update system. I am, however, not a game developer. But as a consumer it's been very good.

> They even pioneered returns after you played the game...

They were forced to do so by the Australian government, so it was hardly "pioneering".

Feels very apple-esque when people spin up compliance to government regulations as "pioneering". Then Epic has the same spin every other company does and they are ground to dust in the internet discourse.

But yeah, difference is Valve knows to be good to consumers (mostly) but make dev support a nightmare if you're not big enough.

Note that this was after Valve was taken to court and was ordered to pay fines for violating consumer protection laws by not offering refunds.

> Valve must pay a fine of AU$3 million (about £1.6m/US$2.3m/€1.8m) for misleading Steam users in Australia by stating they were not entitled to refunds for faulty games on Steam

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/australia-fines-valve-over-...

Australian laws do not apply to the rest of the world - and a $2.3m fine is pennies anyway. So no, that is not why people in the US can get a refund after playing a game for up to 2 hours...

>So no, that is not why people in the US can get a refund after playing a game for up to 2 hours...

okay, here's the EU part: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/new-valve-refund-poli...

not brought to court but that right-to-return law put another fire under their butt for sure.

> That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever.

I think like many new things it got off to a rocky start in 2003 and 2004 (especially with the launch of Half-Life 2). I only started using Steam on 2007 I think and I've never had an issue.

Other features steam develops for you with that 30% cut: Multiplayer friends list apis, cloud save apis and space, wide open VR apis (that get turned into Unreal Engine apis, game streaming, voice chat (though it's terrible by today's standards), workshop (modding and UGC) apis storage and management, Free keys to give out on other platforms which actually decreases that 30% cut depending on how much you use that functionality, built in "markets" for in game items, steam remote play apis and functionality, remote play together api (streaming gamepad stuff over networks without needing any crazy configuration or special programs), the new input system which is just incredible and can basically eliminate any work an individual game developer has to do to support powerful input tools and accessibility, free selling games on linux with very little dev work needed to support it and way less demanding bugs from linux users, built in customizable (but purposely bad) DRM if you only care for a minimal implementation, etc

"Steam" is not just a game store. It's like if walmart built an entire industry around maintaining, supporting, and extending anything you sold through them. 30% is a lot, but Valve is the only company out of basically the entire retail industry actually providing value to sellers and buyers alike, rather than just a storefront.

The CS:GO child gambling problem is HUGE though, and unconscionable. I don't know how Gabe feels about that, but I don't care. It should be exceptionally illegal to give a child access to a "gambling like" game that ever touches real money.

Friends list and matchmaking APIs are also provided by Epic Online Services, and work on consoles, multiple engines, and multiple stores, for free.

That 30% cut still seems egregious. Those features are all nice but none of them can be used to make a game.

Unity is even cheaper, at 2.5%.

Evidently it's not egregious to the people putting games on the platform, so agree to disagree I suppose.

I’m fairly certain Microsoft and Sony both take a 30% cut too.

Yes. They knowingly put things on the platform with the 30% cut in mind because it is worth it to them, ergo they do not find it egregious.

It can be worth it to them and still be egregious. At 50% it’d likely be worth it (to the extent it’s still a viable business) because that’s where the largest market of PC gamers are. It doesn’t necessarily mean anyone would be happy with the fee.

Minimizing the value of utilizing steam to those two things is ridiculous (ly disingenuous).

Is 30% fair? I don't really have an opinion, but putting your game on steam isn't required for game development.

Oh, thanks for reminding me to claim my free game from Epic Games this week.

Valve has done a massive favor to us Linux folks with their work on Proton and other Linux-related development. That’s also worth something.

30% does seem a bit too high, though. I’ll grant you that.

Actually they have done a massive favour to the games industry, keep targeting Windows and get Linux for free, what a deal.

They also host the game download and all its updates allowing buyers to (re)download whenever they want.

30% is the standard retail cut if I’m right. So if you sell your game at Walmart, they take 30% too.

yea, I don't get how people complain about Valve. Google, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft all take roughly the same.

The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in. I'd rather by a game on Steam vs Gog. Consider that. DRM free, but people prefer the lock-in. That's because Valve is nailing it.

Imagine people saying the same about Microsoft, Epic, EA etc.. Nope.

Many games on Steam are DRM free. You have to download the game through Steam... but from Gog you have to download the games from Gog too. One uses their app as a gatekeeper and the other uses a website. KSP is an example just off the top of my head where you can download the game, delete steam and keep playing. Not all games implement Steam DRM.

But also yes. Steam has made the gaming on linux process so much easier. Using steam is the easiest way to game now and I definitely prefer all my games to be there.

They all do. You can argue it's too high but the issue is that they all own those platforms and the hardware you develop on (except Google). Valve, not so much.

>The difference is people actually like using Steam. They actually want to be locked in.

yup, and that's where the danger starts. People like being locked into Apple as well. the consoles all conditioned people to being locked in. I understand it, but don't think it's a good thing.

Microsoft does technically have a lock in with PC, but they have enough historical lawsuits on those issues that they are lax on what is hosted on Windows. The reckoning for Apple/Google is definately coming, though.

> but the issue is that they all own those platforms and the hardware you develop on (except Google). Valve, not so much.

Console manufacturers charge a separate per unit royalty for every game published for their consoles, typical in the range of 10-20%.

That’s how they make most of their money before online stores - the console is sold at near break even typically but they do earn on extra accessories.

The store charges are separate and independent.

> People like being locked into Apple as well.

I don't. I just use Windows and Linux occasionally and that reminds me why I prefer Mac OS.

It's easy to get lock in effects when the alternatives are crap wrt usability. Even if you can get larger numbers for less money on the spec sheet.

On one level, it's evil lock-in. On another, it's all-products compatibility with very tight integration.

I don't like being locked into Apple, but I can't argue with the extraordinary convenience of doing it their way. New iPhone or iPad? Just set it next to your old one and it will pull everything over. New Mac? You can clone from a backup of a different Mac. I started with an iPad, got a Mac a few years later, and finally got an iPhone after Google released the amazing (loved the fingerprint reader on the back for unlocking) but disastrous (the battery would decide to go to hell one day, no warning, and you were losing 30+% of power per hour) Nexus 6P.

I don't remember the details but I thought they clamped down on the CD key work-around in the last year or two.

No. Valve was never against legit developers using their infrastructure for games sold elsewhere even if Valve dont get any cut. If you have game that sold 1000 copies on Steam you can still generate 10,000 keys for selling elsewhere.

What they clamped down on was developers who built $0.01 game for trading cards farming. Now Valve just have some fair usage rules so developer of game that sold 10 copies on Steam can't request 1,000,000 keys for it.

Disclosure: I am indie game studio co-fouder so Steam keys is something we deal with.

I found it - in February 2023 it looks like added some limits and are enforcing that Steam customers don't get a worse deal than customers who use CD keys.

But yes they have clamped down on the fake games for trading card farming too.

It was a news in February 2023, but Steam had this as part of their ToS for decade or more. Basically Valve want you to run the same discounts on Steam as you run on other stores.

AFAIK it's perfectly fine to temporary run something like lowest-ever price outside of Steam on a condition that within some timeframe (not sure about timing) there will be similar sale on Steam.

Yeah, probably the reason why it’s not only forum and screenshots? Don’t know.