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Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:02AM (#37997901)
The UK is very worried about Scottish Independence. Mr Murray is a very vocal supporter of that, and an active figurehead in the independence movement.

I don't know, but I'm assuming that his support of Hamas is a nice pretext for the British Establishment to have another pop at him.

As we predicted when the UK proposed these monstrous laws: they are being abused to go after anyone who annoys the establishment. That's what they were always intended to do. The whole "terrorist" thing was a way of getting popular support for them, just like the popular fears of child abuse have been used to pass yet more police state surveillance laws.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:12AM (#37998012)
How does this look in practice? I’m not saying you’re wrong but your formulation suggests that some faceless people at the British Establishment Country Club put down their whiskeys, ordained that mr Murray be bullied and so it went.

That’s the stuff of movies and dictatorships, right? Do random UK civil servants really abuse the system to this extent for personal or political gain?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by coldtea on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:39AM (#37998301)
>but your formulation suggests that some faceless people at the British Establishment Country Club put down their whiskeys, ordained that mr Murray be bullied and so it went.

Whole departments are set up to work on internal "enemies of the state". Pressure from foreign governments (cough) also points to their undesirables. People above a certain station can trivially tell what is the establishment political winds, short and long term, and which are the "annoying" people that go against them. They also know that furthering the cause against them looks good to their superiors. They can and do build organizational "vendettas" and keep tabs, harass, prosecute them, for years, or even decade.

This goes all the way. Judges and prosecutors making decisions on such cases know who can help their career and what can hurt it, and so on. No explicit coordination needed, though there's a lot of that too - e.g. some established enterpreneur calling their favorite politician and asking them to "do something about that person", special interest groups created ad hoc, and so on. Check a comment by someone called Scott in TFA.

>That’s the stuff of movies and dictatorships, right?

Oh, sweet summer child.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by denton-scratch on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:59AM (#37998565)
> faceless people at the British Establishment Country Club

That's roughly it.

The British Establishment (leaders of the main parties, intelligence officials, senior judges, senior police) wanted to make an example of him, because of his persistent exposure of their arbitary persecution of Assange. He was charged with contempt of court, for "jigsaw identification" of a witness in another case, that of Alex Salmond. That charge was prosecuted before a single judge, who was very much a member of "The Establishment", and he got 6 months in the slammer.

It's still not clear which remarks he made on his blog that contributed to jigsaw identification. Maybe it was a commenter on his blog that made the troublesome remark. But apparently other, more-mainstream journalists had been much more explicit, and most of the Scottish political class knew who the witness was from those sources, not from Craig's blog.

Basically, he was fitted-up for loudly espousing Scottish independence.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by throw310822 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:28PM (#38008446)
> charged with contempt of court, for "jigsaw identification" of a witness in another case, that of Alex Salmond

Worth mentioning a couple of details about that case.

Alex Salmond was the leader of the Scottish independentist party.

Arrested in 2019 with the accusation of 14 instances of sexual abuses from 8 anonymous women.

The subsequent trial cleared him of all charges.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @11:42PM (#38008904)
And there's evidence (as Mr Murray documents, which was obviously his "real" crime) that this was all a fit-up by the current SNP leadership to discredit Mr Salmond so that they would be free from criticism from him about the lack of movement on independence and the SNP pivot from independence to culture war issues.

Also, probably, the reason that the SNP leadership are now pushing for jury-less trials for sexual abuse cases.

If true, it's a staggeringly cynical abuse of the Me Too movement, feminism and the wave of popular support for sexual abuse victims.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by throw310822 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:40AM (#38009885)
I am struck by the fact that you can be publicly disgraced while your accusers remain anonymous, and remain such (and I bet suffer no consequence) even after their accusations against you are proven false or irrelevant.

I don't know the details, but when 8 separate individuals accuse you, all without cause, it's hard to believe it's a coincidence.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @06:05AM (#38011155)
It wasn't a coincidence, it was a carefully co-ordinated campaign (as Mr Murray documented).
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by krageon on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @11:00AM (#38000143)
Yes, but you can strip "UK" away from that. People habitually and casually abuse their power in almost any instance they have it. If this sounds outlandish to you, that's really nice and you probably shouldn't take that naivete away from yourself. It won't improve your life to know otherwise.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by RajT88 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:35PM (#38008481)
> some faceless people at the British Establishment Country Club put down their whiskeys, ordained that mr Murray be bullied and so it went.

I don't mean to go off-topic, but the last few years have shown that this is how power and influence really works in our world. There is no other way to explain (for example) why no clients of Jeff Epstein's brothels have as yet been named and prosecuted. Conveniently, a few have identified themselves through their actions. But they are all free men still, with no signs of any pending comeuppance, or really even an investigation into their involvement.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:55PM (#38008621)
It's the same as any other large organisation. Someone at the top says "oi, so-and-so has been a real pain lately huh". Someone one level down says "is there anything we can do about so-and-so?". Someone the next level down says "well, let's start a file on so-and-so, see if he's up to anything, no harm in that". And then since UK antiterrorism law is terribly written (or brilliantly written, depending on your perspective) such that essentially everyone with even a vague interest in politics breaks it all the time, and the surveillance state means the proof will be a couple of keystrokes away, once you look for a reason to go after someone you find one.

Probably no-one sat down and designed the system to work like this. But it works well for everyone involved, so...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by Terr_ on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:26AM (#38010562)
I wonder if something for just this scenario exists in the archives of the political comedy Yes [Prime] Minister. It feels like there should be.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:24AM (#38013143)
See also Private Eye. Just because it's funny doesn't mean it's not true.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by niemandhier on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:46AM (#37998409)
Can you give an example of him supporting hammas?

I could not find any.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by ddmf on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:59AM (#37998569)
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by oarfish on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:06AM (#37999348)
What did it say? Tweet seemingly was removed.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by derivagral on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:25AM (#37999594)
Not sure how formatting will go, from desktop twitter:

Craig Murray - @CraigMurrayOrg To be entirely plain. I have always viscerally opposed war. I have dedicated my life to conflict resolution and reconciliation. But in the coming Gaza genocide, every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support. If that is a crime, send me back to jail. 7:24 PM · Oct 14, 2023 · 167.9K Views

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by peyton on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:10AM (#38011541)
Dang, he forgot to mention that one in the article…
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by jjgreen on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:26PM (#38019670)
Section 1 extends the offence of inviting support for a proscribed organisation in section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 to cover expressions of support that are reckless as to whether they will encourage others to support the organisation;

according to https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism

So the question is whether "I will support Hammas" constitutes "inviting support". That's not clear-cut to me. Probably be able to get him on section 12 though, "reckless" is a movable feast.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lobocinza on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @09:30PM (#38020636)
A bit dishonest from him, right? Given his background, he should know better and probably did.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by xdennis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:47AM (#37998412)
His support of Scottish independence is very old. His endorsement of Hamas' terrorist actions is recent ("every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support").

Humanity shouldn't wait for another holocaust. These people should be investigated immediately.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by pipo234 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:09AM (#37998692)
I see why that sentence is considered over the line, but in context it does not sound like he's endorsing another holocaust.

> To be entirely plain.

> I have always viscerally opposed war. I have dedicated my life to conflict resolution and reconciliation.

> But in the coming Gaza genocide, every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support.

> If that is a crime, send me back to jail.

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/171333500612114051...

I think he's clearly very angry and upset about the violence inflicted upon Gaza population and it's difficult to keep heads clear and calm.

But let's not jump from "armed resistance" to "another holocaust".

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by Thiez on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:23AM (#37998847)
Wait for another holocaust? Israel is inflicting one on the people (mostly children!) in Gaza right now. I think it's in rather bad taste to yell holocaust when an occupier faces resistance from a people they are violently oppressing.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by philwelch on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @11:56AM (#38000988)
That “resistance” took the form of indiscriminately murdering and raping over a thousand unarmed civilians, including Israeli Arabs, in their homes, in the streets, and even at a music festival for peace.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:15AM (#37998756)
Given recent events, I consider support for Hamas to be on extremely shaky moral ground, and in very poor taste. Still, I don't think that verbal support for Hamas calls for investigation. (Material support? Sure, investigate that.)
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by hwillis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:58AM (#37999263)
Murray wrote Zionism is Bullshit in 2017. It's just as old as his pro-independence stuff.

> Humanity shouldn't wait for another holocaust.

Agreed. An international coalition must militarily intervene to repeal rules such as Military Order 158 (blocking construction of water infrastructure), rebuild important infrastructure (like the airport blown up by israel), restore critical life services like hospitals (which have been bombed 62 times), stop the murder of civilians, destroy checkpoints, walls, sniper nests and other infrastructure imprisoning the people who have lived here for millenia. The murder, displacement, apartheid, and genocide that has occurred for the past 70 years must be stopped before the terrorist ethnostate finally fills the last graves of those who did not flee their homes.

The people responsible for these atrocities -which stand alongside My Lai, the Rouge, Rwanda, the Kulaks, etc- must be held to an international trial, and should never see a life of freedom ever again. God forbid that the murder should escalate to the true eradication of the Gaza strip- if those millions were exterminated, there would truly be no event that could even be compared except for the Holocaust.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by xdennis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @01:37PM (#38002499)
His endorsement of Hamas terrorism is from a few days ago. You have no idea what you are talking about.

> blocking construction of water infrastructure

Does the UK have any water pipelines for France? Israelis are being generous with the Palestinians and when they stop because of terrorism they're accused of "holocaust" by people like you. Disgusting.

> rebuild important infrastructure (like the airport blown up by Israel)

It was destroyed because it was used to attack Israel. They have the right to defend themselves.

> restore critical life services like hospitals

Everybody knows that Hamas hides in hospitals. Even Wikipedia admits it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital .

The only solution for this is for Israel to annex Hamas. Abandoning it in 2005 was a mistake. Instead of becoming Singapore they became a haven for terrorism.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by hwillis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @03:29PM (#38004130)
> His endorsement of Hamas terrorism is from a few days ago. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Murray is one of the most obnoxious, most vocal anti-Zionists on the planet. He has been doing it for-fucking-ever. You have no idea what you're talking about.

> Does the UK have any water pipelines for France?

Complete non-sequitur. I said Military Order 158: since 1967 (56 years) the Israeli military has used force to prevent Palestinians from building water supplies in their own country.

Israel does not provide water out of generosity. They do it so they can shoot anyone who tries to supply water. It's despicable to call this generosity.

> It was destroyed because it was used to attack Israel.

This is an outright lie. Israel closed the airport was during Intifada and for two years nobody was allowed to use it until it was finally bombed.

> Everybody knows that Hamas hides in hospitals.

There are soldiers in hospitals during any war, to prevent the hospitals from being taken over or destroyed, and because soldiers tend to be shot at. Even Russia does not do this to hospitals.

It's also illegal to kill combat medics. They are ACTUAL MEMBERS OF HAMAS; it's still wrong and illegal to kill them. Your mind is so warped that you just do not care.

> The only solution for this is for Israel to annex Hamas.

Israel has made it clear it will not end this peacefully, so yes they should give citizenship and equal rights to all Palestinians and end apartheid.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by dash2 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:51AM (#37998474)
I'm from the UK, and my instant reaction is that this is an evidence-free conspiracy-theory. If you have anything to back it up, other than vibes, feel free to say so.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by matthewdgreen on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:17AM (#37998781)
Well, it's also possible they read his Tweet and looked at his background and said "this dangerous person really is going to conduct violent acts in this country, we have no choice but to thwart him by seizing all his electronic devices using the most powerful law in the land, even if it de-legitimizes our use of this law for more serious matters." But since that hypothesis is so obviously cartoonish, it's hard to blame folks who look for more rational explanations like "the government is harassing a political opponent" (whether they're right or wrong.)
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by xdennis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @01:24PM (#38002301)
> it's hard to blame folks who look for more rational explanations like "the government is harassing a political opponent" (whether they're right or wrong.)

No, it's not, because he's clearly being investigated for supporting Hamas' actions (which classified as a terrorist organization by the UK).

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by matthewdgreen on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @02:19PM (#38003100)
I don't know anything about this person other than what's on his Wikipedia. And what that says is: he's a 65-year old former diplomat and noted human rights activist with (as far as I can tell) zero history of violence or terrorist acts.

If the government seriously thinks he's capable of following through on violent acts because he wrote a Tweet saying "I support Hamas", I suspect the government is badly mismanaging its anti-terrorism resources. If the government doesn't think he's going to follow up that Tweet with action and is "merely doing it because the law says they can", that's pretty much the definition of harassment.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by SemioticStandrd on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:21PM (#38007997)
You can’t be that naive, can you? It’s obviously not the Tweet they’re worried about. They think the Tweet is indication that he supports Hamas enough to aid or promote them secretly. “If this guy is this outspoken publicly for his support of Hamas, what must he be doing to support them behind closed doors? Does he donate to them? Organize for them?”

Whether or not that’s enough to search him is another debate, but that’s what their thought process was when they decided to detain him.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:16PM (#38008368)
No, I think that the tweet is an excuse that allows them to hassle him more, because he's a prominent supporter of Scottish Independence. I don't think this has anything to do with Hamas itself.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:47PM (#38008567)
> They think the Tweet is indication that he supports Hamas enough to aid or promote them secretly. “If this guy is this outspoken publicly for his support of Hamas, what must he be doing to support them behind closed doors? Does he donate to them? Organize for them?”

If they think that then why just him and not the thousands of other people tweeting similar things?

The thought process is evidently "oh, it's that bloody git again, have we got anything we can pin him for this time?"; if you don't see that it's you who's being naive. (I'm agnostic about whether it's specifically about Scottish independence, the Assange case, or something else; one way or another he's a thorn in the side of the powerful, and that's why the book is being thrown at him)

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by ahoka on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:58AM (#38011843)
Probably if Mary-Sue from Idaho, a shop clerk tweets this it’s not exactly the same if a former diplomat with international connections and public influence does it?
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Thursday October 26, 2023 @10:11PM (#38033907)
You're grossly overselling his influence. He doesn't have the ear of the powerful or the mob. Even if he were to explicitly call his followers to take up arms - which is a long way past the quoted statement - I very much doubt any of them would.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by permo-w on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:42AM (#37999079)
your "instant reaction" is just as unhelpful as the proscribed "vibes"
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:56PM (#38007836)
> If you have anything to back it up, other than vibes, feel free to say so.

Just read the history of his recent legal hassles, which are a farcical misuse of legislation intended for other purposes. He went to jail for (basically) pointing out all the flaws in the prosecution's case against Alex Salmond.

As the old joke goes; It's not paranoia if they actually are out to get you ;)

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by kmlx on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:59AM (#37998559)
> that his support of Hamas

say what now? is there any proof he supports those terrorists? in which case, it's pretty clear why he was detained.

edit: found it: https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/171333500612114051...

yup, terrorism charges incoming. from the same guy that did this: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/11/former-ambas...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by MyFirstSass on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @02:08PM (#38002954)
Looks more to me like he's a human rights activist that has been targeted by the security state as Naom Chomsky et. al comments in the just posted article.

His own comments are about desperate measures when carpet bombed.

That you want to swiftly send him to jail tells me totalitarianism is becoming fashionable again.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by boffinAudio on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:25AM (#38010555)
>That you want to swiftly send him to jail tells me totalitarianism is becoming fashionable again.

Every single human being alive has the capacity to manifest the totalitarian-authoritarian personality. We are not immune to it as individuals - our only safety from this viral meme is social. It is only when we have a social order that provides more motivation to eschew the totalitarian-authoritarian personality, at an individual level, that we are actually free of it. The irony is, this personality also arises when an individuals' own personality is challenged by society.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by kmlx on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @06:56AM (#38011458)
> That you want to swiftly send him to jail tells me totalitarianism is becoming fashionable again.

where did i write that? he'll have a fair trial according to the law. he can then convince the judge he doesn't actually support a terrorist organisation (as it's illegal to do that in the UK).

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by vintermann on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:59AM (#38011858)
> he'll have a fair trial according to the law.

Yes, according to the law, his trial will be fair. The law doesn't around admitting it isn't fair.

But what do you know, I looked under the robe and wig of the law, and would you believe it was just a person! An ugly, naked, shameless person at that.

In reality, there will be no fairness if smirking people like you get your way.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by kmlx on Thursday October 26, 2023 @06:17AM (#38023738)
> But what do you know, I looked under the robe and wig of the law, and would you believe it was just a person! An ugly, naked, shameless person at that.

you did what now?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by smsm42 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:32PM (#38021021)
He said every act by Hamas is justified, a week after Hamas murdered 1400 people. As terrorism support goes, you can't be any clearer. He's not "human rights activist", at least human rights of murdered Israelis don't concern him a single little bit. He's pro-terrorist activist who is open and brazen at calling on terrorists to murder more civilians right after they murdered 1400 of them. He's not some innocent bystander. He specifically thrust himself into this on the side of terrorists.

I am not sure I want to give the government the power to prosecute even such disgusting people, because I can't trust the government with such powers. But pretending like he is completely uninvolved and it's just random out of the blue thing when he specifically endorsed terrorists is bullshit.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by firen777 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @08:55PM (#38020374)
Man, the more I looked into this guy and his co., the more I learnt what a piece of work this guy is.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by smsm42 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:24PM (#38020964)
If he goes to pro Hamas rallies days after Hamas started war with Israel it's kinda hard not to make this conclusion.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by jen20 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:55PM (#38008219)
Is it? Most members of the Conservative Party would be overjoyed at Scottish independence - it would give them a permanent majority (or at least, would have done had they not had their ridiculous dalliance with Liz Truss).
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:14PM (#38008353)
The Conservative Party have always been against the breakup of the United Kingdom. I'm not a member so I don't know why, but I suspect any/all of the following: loss of North Sea Oil rights, history, weird effect on the monarchy, reunified Ireland immediately afterwards, Scotland rejoining the EU leaving England and Wales as this weird little bit of non-EU island.

I don't think there's any PM who wants to be the PM who allowed the UK to break up.

Luckily for them, as Mr Murray's blog details, the SNP is very comfortable being Westminster MPs and aren't that interested in actually doing anything about independence.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by anonzzzies on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @01:14AM (#38009378)
Pro Palestine doesn’t necessarily mean pro Hamas. It usually doesn’t, but of course some people (pro Israel usually) always manipulate/turn it that way. So please let us know where it shows he is pro Hamas vs pro Palestine (and actually against Hamas, which is what I would expect he is).
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by olalonde on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:22AM (#38009775)
He explicitly stated his support for Hamas and Hezbollah in this tweet: https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/171333500612114051...
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by anonzzzies on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:39AM (#38009874)
Ah indeed he did. Jikes, he gets his wish then.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by smsm42 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:37PM (#38021053)
[delayed]
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by blibble on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:59AM (#38010756)
these days Murray is an embarassment to anyone he associates with

if anything the UK gov would want him freely associating with the SNP

not locked up where he's prevented from embarrassing them

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by marcus_holmes on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @05:53AM (#38011082)
He's pretty anti-SNP these days
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by M2Ys4U on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @06:47AM (#38011390)
> The UK is very worried about Scottish Independence. Mr Murray is a very vocal supporter of that, and an active figurehead in the independence movement. > >I don't know, but I'm assuming that his support of Hamas is a nice pretext for the British Establishment to have another pop at him.

Murray is also a crank and conspiracy theorist, who has been a vociferous supporter of Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian regime.

Saying this is about Scottish independence is hilarious.