But yet it exists on the Apple App store where I am sure Apple has inspected it.

I guess the Android version could be a lot different, but why?

Why wouldn't apple let software just work as a proxy between the drone and dji?

You don't need camera access, location services, etc when the drone does all of it onboard.

I got a mavic early on and sent it back because you needed the app and an account to activate it and fly it, even manually.

I'm not sure if you're joking. Apple's business depends on them bending the rules for China.

I’m not sure how that is any more true for Apple vs Google? Every tech company relies heavily on China for business.

Google is banned in China while Apple is not (because they bend their own rules to get that sweet Chinese cash).

Google Search, Alphabet's main business, doesn't exist in China.

Google has famously made a stand and fussily exited China. Since then its stock underperformed competitors that didn’t.

Is there actual evidence that Apple is bending the rules for them? If true, that would be quite a scoop!

Yes, the CCP published on their website that Apple is collaborating with them.

Of course there wouldn't be any evidence.

What people allege is that Apple being successful in China is suspicious.

Apple’s strict on App Store rules but gives WeChat a free pass (2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36882467

Of course there is no smoking gun but you'd have to be dumb to believe it's not happening. Apple want to make phones in China and sell phones to China Wechat (China) is allowed a free pass on the app store.

iOS does not allow sideloading. Android does. That would be enough difference. You can still enforce app permissions on apps outside the store on Android, like location and cameras etc only when using the app and so on.

Is this a new thing?

I had the original Mavic Mini and installed the DJI Fly App (v1.2.1 on my phone now) from the Play Store.

edit: here's the listing: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dji.go.v5

Though it doesn't show up in search from the web.

edit 2: The Android download on their site is definitely an APK and not a Play Store link: https://www.dji.com/downloads/djiapp/dji-fly

Why in the world would they need to do this?

Even their play store app downloads a bundle of files to run after you launch it for the first time, which is against Google ToS.

Is it? Pretty much any serious game on Android does this.

I don’t have any of these, but is the software some apk you download, and at that point can’t that be inspected?

Who inspects APKs?

The Play Store has all kind of automated and manual processes to detect malware and vulnerabilities. It's why I don't enable side-loading on my phone.

Please tell me you're joking or missing the sarcasm tag.

The Play Store is notorious for allowing absolute garbage apps in, regardless of the "risks" of sideloading.

That's not incompatible. They do a lot for security, even if malware still manages to get there. One would assume that the most popular apps get more attention.

The APK is a thin shell that downloads even more code to execute, from the internet. So, what you download and inspect isn't what's executed, and what you execute now might be different in 5 minutes.

Ok understood. That was the context I was missing. Thanks

One easy (albeit a little costly) solution here is to use the DJI Android-tablet remote (DJI RC / RC 2).

If you use their controller, you no longer need the app on a phone (e.g. to fly in restricted locations)? That would be nice.

>>It doesn't exist in the Google Play Store, to avoid inspection.

I think the real issue is more complicated than that, but, whatever.

I use their software only for administrative tasks - updates, etc. For routine use I would recommend something like Litchi.

Fwiw, Litchi is based on their SDK, so you're not really avoiding their software by using it.

True, but you ARE getting a google play store app for those that find that comforting.

Good point that I hadn't thought about in the situation.

https://flylitchi.com/help is only available for older models, not for the Mini 3/4 models.

DJI is fully compliant with China's policy of civil-military fusion. Anyone flying anywhere sensitive should not use them. They're beaming back home whatever they want, and China is using both tech and data to give an asymmetric advantage to allies like Russia in the Ukraine war.

>They're beaming back home whatever they want

This claim is always thrown out like a life preserver without ever anything to back it up. Do you have anything to support this claim?

They're cloud based, aren't they? So regardless of what they're doing with the data, it's true that they're (figuratively) beaming it back, although parent is admittedly implying more.

I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country, so I would buy that they have access to drone data.

with how they are executing tick tock and making a mockery out of the USDS system, I would not put this past them at all

> I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country

So just like the US ?

They're not cloud based as far as I would define it. I have one and fly mostly on areas where there is no internet signal. The drone beams back video to your phone and unless you're syncing the cache videos with their cloud nothing its stored other than flight meta data. You can avoid even that by using a totally offline controller/phone.

How does the drone communicate with the phone?

Via the remote over RF.

Does the app function without an encrypted connection to DJI controlled servers?

If so, then there is nothing else needed. People forget how sketchy closed source software is.

You can turn off all the phone radios or you can block all network traffic and the app still works fine. You only need a connection to get an unlock code in certain airspace.

Given the history of China and its tech companies, the burden of proof shifted to their shoulders.

So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that.

Someone may not like it, but China now has a very, very bad reputation among people in the West. Especially after the last pandemic and how they handled it.

> So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that.

Can Google and Apple prove that their stuff is surveillance-free, though?

No, because it isn't.

No, but US reputation is way better than China's.

In the absence of a surveillance-free device, people prefer the one with the better rep.

>us reputation is way better

Where? Maybe in the west, certainly not in the rest of the world. China didn't start a war that killed 1million people not even 20 years ago. Westerners don't care about that but that's to be expected.

You are right, Chinese govt didn't kill only 1 million.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

The US military complex is beyond dirty and its grip on govt power makes everyone sick in the West and the East.

But reducing the US to that and then doing a comparison with the Chinese government and ideology is unfair, in my opinion.

> occurred between 1959 and 1961

This doesn't qualify for "not even 20 years ago".

bit of a random comparison. You're comparing one country's propensity to invade/ bomb other countries and kill their citizens to another country's internal famine. You could say the Chinese gov was incompetent then, but that famine isn't an example of foreign interference, like the US wars etc. dont think the comparison here holds

Replace 'China' with 'USA' in your post, and for most of the world both would be identically true.

The thing is: a lot of people want to live in the US. That's not true for China.

Have you ever been to China and the US?

You may think they're equally awful, but a LOT of people disagree.

China's reputation is in really bad shape among people in the West. Despite also being under surveillance, that's why many prefer American or European tech.

Not saying it's all of it, but could some of this reputation be from propaganda and attempts to smear chinese tech? Seems like a pretty common MO from the USA

Horse shit. If you can’t show specific data traffic flowing from Mavic software back to China that could conceivably be drone footage, this claim is bogus and borderline libelous.

It would be trivial to prove this to be true, and there is zero of that proof. Hell, at this point it would be valuable to even see small phone homes by Mavic software from the last year, but I doubt you even have that.

There are plenty of other reasons not to buy this drone, so the lies are completely uncalled for.

You are looking at a simplistic perspective.

Surveillance doesn't always run 24/7 for every device. The signal/noise ratio would be extremely low.

To keep a high ratio, it's selectively switched on for high interest targets.

There's no reason for a drone flying on my backyard to send any data to China. Their privacy protection is inexistent. You can ask it to be conceivably whatever horse shit you like, I don't care. I don't want any bytes sent there.

Nothing simplistic about asking for evidence that this is occurring. Yes it’s not easy, but without evidence you’re spewing speculation, and when you claim speculation as certainty it ventures into the realm of bull shit.

There's plenty of evidence that the CCP forces Chinese tech businesses to do surveillance:

1. https://www.google.com/search?q=ccp+chinese+tech+surveillanc...

The word you're trying to find is not "speculation", but "suspicion":

1. a feeling or thought that something is possible, likely, or true.

2. cautious distrust.

You may like China or think there's no difference between the US and China. But saying there's no reason to be suspicious of a Chinese device is putting you in the realm of unreasonable...

That’s too broad. The claim is specific, so the evidence needs to be specific.

I never claimed I “liked” China or equated China to the US at all, nor did I say suspicion of Chinese made electronics was without merit. What I said was the specific claim being made was unsupported by evidence that would be trivially collectable if the claim were true.

And no, my word choice was intentional. You seem to be arguing against the common criticisms of your position, but you are ignoring my actual issues. I recommend rereading what I wrote and trying again.

After Snowden, can you affirm that any US tech company is safe to use as a non us citizen? Or even one in some cases.

I'm not saying US tech companies are surveillance-free.

What I'm saying is China's reputation is way, waaaaay worse than the US' among people in the West, in general.

That's why they prefer American or European technologies and products.

While I myself still wouldn't ever use DJI because of this reason, no can ever provide any concrete claim. Quite hilarious.

What concrete claim are you looking for? Is it not enough that Huawei was banned by the US? Do you know the reason why it was banned? The same reason could broadly apply to every Chinese company. TikTok is the software counterpart that isn’t allowed on any government phone.

DJI does not produce infrastructure pieces so it hasn’t reached the same urgency to the US, so it’s still allowed.

at this point then NULL hypothesis should be that China is using consumer grades products to spy on its perceived enemies including the USA.

Since Snowden it's pretty clear that the USA is spying on even its citizen. I don't see how it would be surprising that China does something similar.

> Do you know the reason why it was banned?

For the infrastructure, for legit strategic reasons (without even considering they are abusing it, you generally don't want to rely on foreign infrastructure on your territory).

For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor.

> For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor.

Big competitor of what? There’s no popular Android phone OEM in the US. Sounds like you’re making stuff up.

To... Apple. First time I heard about a Huawei ban of smartphones was also the year where I heard that Huawei was about to sell more than Apple in the US, if I remember correctly.

Many people around me liked Huawei because they were seeing it as the Android brand that "is closest to Apple".

> Sounds like you’re making stuff up.

Don't get me wrong: I am not part of the US government and I was not part of the official decision. I'm just sharing my opinion :-).

Huawei was on a trajectory to become the biggest smartphone vendor in the world, when they were kneecapped in 2019, mostly by blocking their access to Google services (which cratered their sales outside of China).

https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/canalys-global-smartphone-m...

US vendors slept on 5G, and Huawei prepared end-to-end gear, from backend systems through antennas to handsets. This resulted in Huawei getting a lot more deployment in 5G, and triggered less than open retaliation. The handsets themselves were minor issue compared to possibility of China eating US' lunch on 5G.

Huawei was starting to be a serious player in 5G, and their handsets were eating Apple's lunch.

US understandably wants their spyware in the world's infra. The rest of the planet might not see it that black and white.

I dont trust either but I trust the Chinese less. But again, I dont trust the US as a citizen. CBDC's and social credit apps (already in China) are going to be an end game scenario for a corrupt elite keeping control in the US.

> Is it not enough that Huawei was banned by the US?

They are in an economic war and are competing about whose spyware people use. I dont see how given that you can take this as a sensible metric.

Not arguing against your main point though, your line of reasoning is just flawed. The US would have reason to behave like this even if Chinese spyware wasnt a threat.

How do Ukrainian operators avoid exposing their own positions? Do they install custom firmware on their drone?

Yes they root the device and set operator coordinates to 0,0 so they are not picked up by aeroscope, etc

Its not impossible that DJI could have failsafe phone home systems in there that'll still send info back home after rooting. My guess is that the products they produced before the Ukraine war were more naive and now that they've learnt consumer drones will be used in warzones no matter what, I'll bet they have started incorporating such failsafes. Imagine being able to know where every mavic in the frontlines are and selling that info to the Russians.

You can operate the drones without a connected device. Operator location is done by locating the radio source. It would be better to have repeaters and cable transmitter to them to avoid direct strike.

Tech people are usually paranoid by the most unlikely scenarios. A soldier with an antenna can pinpoint the operator location much easier than trying to get this kind of info from china without leaks.

jailbreaks.

Good luck using my backyard data to fight in Ukraine…

Both fronts use DJI drones[0][1], although DJI suspended its activities in both Russia and Ukraine as of April 26, 2022[2] and contractually forbids[3] any sales by dealers to either country and for combat use.

However, other actors are entering the war business, like Parrot[4].

[0]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NtgseODXGSAomx6G5Efw...

[1]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/16/ukraine-russia-war-dron...

[2]: https://www.dji.com/uk/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-sales-...

[3]: https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-dji-relat...

[4]: https://www.lesechos.fr/weekend/high-tech-auto/henry-seydoux...

Not so long ago there was a post / comment here that said Ukraine's going through around 10K DJI drones per month

Link?

They still use mostly DJI drones by burning an older firmware and using an anonymizer to hide takeoff and pilot's position from a potential aeroscope. DJI's are pretty cheap and really good at what they are doing.

Not surprising from a Chinese company

I downloaded the apk file and installed it, but for some reason I can't fly app to work on the S20. It just says can't connect to controller.

>It doesn't exist in the Google Play Store, to avoid inspection.

I thought that was because the company was sanctioned by the US, and therefore google can't work with them?

investment exclusion list. DJI is not a publicly-traded company.

Huh, they used to exist.. It's almost as if some OS SDK changed that restricted what hardware could do.. weird.

also, the software will run fine w/o internet...

Honestly if I was as large as DJI I would avoid publishing in the play (and Apple app if it were possible) store as well and save the wasted time of the constant pointless review rejections.