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Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by throwawaaarrgh on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:19AM (#37642047)
Most Metro areas do not have enough affordable housing. It's well established that local governments cannot build enough new affordable housing, partly because any contractor that bids goes way over the value of a private housing venture.

The idea that there's enough housing but "in the wrong place" is like saying there's plenty of jobs, they're just in third world countries and Scandinavia.

The idea that the solution is "play Robin Hood with the global economy" is literally a fairy tale.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jmclnx on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:45AM (#37642246)
>Most Metro areas do not have enough affordable housing.

Not only that, the definition of "affordable housing" is skewed. In the big metro area near me, "affordable housing" means 1500 to 2000 USD per month. That is not affordable to any normal person. To me, affordable rent should be below 1000 USD.

You think this homeless crises is bad, wait 30 years and then you will see Cities with large slums like many "third" world countries have.

And yes, it is the Gov. job to fix this, but the politicians wants to continue receiving their "bribes" from companies, some of which are buying up rental properties as fast as they become available. Ever see "cash for your house" ? Those properties are probably being bought up for use with AirBNB or being turned into rentals for around 3000 USD.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by no_wizard on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:49AM (#37644750)
ProPublica did a whole series on one of the larger "Cash for your house" type businesses. It seems they're really trying to extract cheap homes from distressed sellers with pressure tactics[0][1][2][3]

[0]: https://www.propublica.org/article/ugly-truth-behind-we-buy-...

[1]: https://www.propublica.org/article/behind-the-scenes-of-we-b...

[2]: https://www.propublica.org/article/state-federal-laws-do-lit...

[3]: https://www.propublica.org/article/want-to-sell-home-for-cas...

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:17AM (#37645243)
The other side of this "scam" is that people are being sold how to "get rich quick" in real estate for $5k seminars (which boil down to "offer people 30% below market value and hope you get people who are dumb/desperate enough to sell").
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by somewhereoutth on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:48AM (#37642274)
Let's take SF as an example. If a significant number of new units were built (somehow without detracting from the character of the city), would it really lower prices much? Likely not - instead prices would dip just enough to make it viable for large numbers of high income people from outside SF to come to the city (which by massing effect may make SF even more desirable, so actually higher prices!)

Wealth taxes are not a fairly tale, though of course they are a nightmare for the excessively wealthy! In the UK we used death duties to finish off the aristocracy.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by zemvpferreira on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:03AM (#37642384)
This is a bizarre idea contrary to how many housing affordability crisis were actually solved in the past. Would SF's housing prices go down if you were to build 10,000 new units? You're right, probably not that much. Would SF's housing prices go down if you were to build 1M new units? No doubt.

Shenzhen grew from 100,000 people in the 1980s to 13M now with no housing affordability crisis...by building. The whole pearl river delta region is essentially an 80M people megacity with no housing problems...because they continuously built. Tokyo is also a classical example of continuously building infrastructure to support millions more people per decade.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by zug_zug on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:40AM (#37643647)
Are you sure it's profitable to build 1million units in Soma (or whatever portion isn't protected historic houses limited to 3 stories) ?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by eropple on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:56AM (#37643867)
"Profitable" and "necessary" might sometimes be at odds.

That's why we have governments, though.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by IKantRead on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:59AM (#37643913)
> Shenzhen grew from 100,000 people in the 1980s to 13M now with no housing affordability crisis...by building.

I wouldn't use China as an example of solving the housing problem by simply building. There's currently a large oversupply problem [0] and, not entirely unlike the US (but more extreme), excess supply of housing has lead to people simply owning more than one property as an investment strategy.

0. https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-smaller-cities-struggle-...

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by anthonypasq on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:15AM (#37644126)
yeah thats because the building was centrally planned, which is always a worse choice than just allowing the market to work itself out. It doesnt detract from the mind numbingly obvious statement that increasing supply decreases prices.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by prewett on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:08PM (#37646183)
Increasing supply doesn't necessarily decrease prices. Increasing supply above demand is required for prices to decrease.

Unrelated to the above, but China's excessive building isn't actually from central planning, but because real estate is the one of the only viable investment methods in China, and because selling land to developers is one of the only ways local governments can raise revenue. Chinese cities are quite expensive to live in (especially if you have Western standards)

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by somewhereoutth on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:11PM (#37649905)
> mind numbingly obvious statement that increasing supply decreases prices

Only in idealised markets. Housing markets are often not like that.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by anthonypasq on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:36PM (#37650268)
can you explain how and when this wasnt the case barring regulatory interference?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by selectodude on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:31AM (#37644426)
This idea among residents of San Francisco that all 8 billion of us humans want to live there and it’s impossible to build enough housing to satiate demand never ceases to crack me up.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:51AM (#37644801)
Shenzhen and Guangzhou are some of the least affordable cities in the world when it comes to housing prices. Yes, rents are actually not that bad and many units are vacant being just used as investments, but the cost to buy is astronomical given the Chinese housing bubble.

Tokyo is an example where houses are torn down every 39 years so a new one can be built. Also, given the lack of population growth in Japan as a whole, the growth rate in Tokyo is anemic. Tokyo metro area has even been losing a small amount of population in the last three years: https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/21671/tokyo/population

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by coryrc on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:25AM (#37645378)
Houses often are torn down, but not apartments.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:57AM (#37645971)
Apartments are torn down every 40-50 years instead of 30.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by helen___keller on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:16PM (#37646298)
Tokyo capped out and is now declining in population because there isn’t a backlog of millions of people who wanted to live there but couldn’t or had to move out because rent is 3x in Tokyo compared to Osaka.

Rent is maybe 30% higher in Tokyo, even less if you live on the end of a train line. Can you imagine how many people would move to Bay Area CA or New York City or Boston or Seattle if their rent was only 30% higher? Pre pandemic my 3 bedroom in Boston area was 3500/mo. Since the pandemic rents have gone even higher. We have bidding wars of people trying to win a rental unit. Bidding wars. It’s ridiculous.

Also I don’t see your point about houses being torn down. If anything that should make it more expensive (since buying used and not rebuilding is cheaper). Realistically rebuilding is vital (in conjunction with subdivision) because that’s how you increase density

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:30PM (#37647545)
> but couldn’t or had to move out because rent is 3x in Tokyo compared to Osaka.

Osaka and Nagoya are losing people also. The changes are for metro areas, not city cores.

> If anything that should make it more expensive (since buying used and not rebuilding is cheaper).

It simply means that you can't compute new housing very easily by new housing construction rates (you have to subtract old housing demolitions).

Density currently isn't increasing (you tear down one three story narrow house and replace it with another three story narrow house, you need to buy a bunch of SFHs to make a new apartment building).

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jjav on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:56PM (#37653340)
> Would SF's housing prices go down if you were to build 1M new units? No doubt.

Where could you built 1M units in San Francisco? It is less than 50 square miles surrounded on 3 sides by water.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by sokoloff on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:51AM (#37642299)
If it works temporarily, but gets consumed by induced demand, then do it again. And then again. And then again.

This is a good thing. If SF is so great, many more people will be able to go there.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:54AM (#37644842)
So you are claiming that if SF becomes as dense as Manhattan, it will be as cheap as Manhattan? Or maybe Hong Kong’s density and housing affordability is the target here?

The ideal situation is Tokyo, where a lack of culture in speculating on housing coupled with population decreases leads (going down in the metro area for the last three years) to housing affordability.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by sokoloff on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:01AM (#37644970)
I'm claiming that the balance of supply and demand affects housing prices.

If you increase the supply by enough, that will tip the balance to where the market clearing price will go down.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:27AM (#37645424)
The real underlying problem is that you have X million people who want to live in the quaint version of San Francisco. It's literally impossible; the quaint version dies at some point as more and more people are piled in, even if the resulting city is world-class and quite desirable.

Just like the entirety of Los Angeles couldn't move to Santa Barbara without Santa Barbara being changed forever.

The closest reasonable equivalent we can do is maintain the quaint "old town" and build a "real city" around it where people actually live and work, and the old town remains as a tourist destination, basically.

This is the case in much of Europe. The Paris you visit and the Paris people live in are often mixed, but they're noticeably different.

Rapid mass transit to city centers can hide the distinction.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jwestbury on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:58AM (#37642341)
> Most Metro areas do not have enough affordable housing.

There's no such thing as affordable housing[0]. Just housing. You can certainly argue that building a house is too expensive -- and due to NIMBYism, discriminatory policies, and anti-density regulatory environments, this is often true -- but affordability is not an intrinsic value of a building, and the problem is generally that housing stock simply doesn't keep up with demand in places which demand lots of housing (e.g., San Francisco, Seattle, NYC, London, etc.).

0. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/1/3/theres-no-such-...

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:06AM (#37643133)
That's a pithy, contrarian slogan, not a statement of fact. "Affordable Housing" is a term of art with a specific definition, and yes, it really exists, all over these United States.

Also, if you want to use it colloquially, then housing is, by definition, affordable for most of the people who live in housing and are not running a spending deficit.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by diogenes4 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:10AM (#37643192)
What is that specific definition? It seems in many cases the term is used to AVOID being pinned to any specific definition.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:20AM (#37643329)
Affordable housing is defined by the U.S Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) as housing that does not require a household to spend more than 30 percent of its gross monthly income on housing costs. For rental housing, these costs include monthly rent and utility payments; for owner-occupied housing, these costs include mortgage payments and additional expenses associated with homeownership. A household that spends more than 30 percent of its gross monthly income on housing costs is considered “cost-burdened.”
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by pjmorris on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:35AM (#37643566)
It appears to me that the definition is compatible with the poster's notion 'affordability is not an intrinsic value of a building' in the sense that the definition depends on income as well as the housing itself. Problems could be addressed by increasing housing or by increasing household income, or by decreasing price, or some combination thereof.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bandyaboot on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:56AM (#37643865)
That definition really has no value outside the context of analyzing a given household’s situation. In the context of housing regulation, zoning, etc it really isn’t helpful since all housing is both affordable and unaffordable. Schrödinger’s housing.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:53AM (#37645908)
> all housing is both affordable and unaffordable. Schrödinger’s housing.

Ah, more pithy, meaningless slogans.

Surely municipalities and landlords know the median gross incomes of households in the areas they serve. Surely there are bands of income where certain types of housing are classified as "affordable" and then "cost-burden", and the quantity of households which fall into these bands are well-known to those who serve them. Landlords set the market rent based on what the market will bear. HUD sets the allowances according to market rent as well.

Yes, to a homeless bum, all housing is unaffordable. To George Soros, it's all affordable housing. But you need to remember that the definition is proffered by Housing And Urban Development, a US Government agency which does things like subsidize rent and help people purchase homes, so I doubt that the state of feline vitality is entirely unknown to them.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:16AM (#37645219)
That's explicitly the problem with the definition.

You can "solve" the equation by reducing housing costs, but it is also possible that the "problem" isn't housing costs per se but wage depression, and that the "real" solution is to fix the gross monthly income.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:50PM (#37651848)
> the gross monthly income

"The" gross monthly income, as if there is one blob of income that we could turn a knob and increase, by say, 10%? Are we doing this across the board, from migrant farmworkers to the Fortune 500 C-levels? Does this dovetail with UBI so that people who earned $0 + entitlements, lose their entitlements and begin receiving cash instead?

If rental housing is the #1 monthly expense for the working class, or say, the socio-economic class who needs Affordable Housing, and you "fix" their income (which I think you mean raise it, rather than the financial term of art) if you raise their income by a given amount, and housing costs stay constant, then more people get housed?

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:54PM (#37652926)
That's the "affordable housing" twist - housing could be 99% affordable in an area, and due to lack of supply, there could still be a housing crisis.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Tuesday October 03, 2023 @04:38AM (#37749352)
Have families considered living with one another, rather than constantly splitting apart at first blush and divorcing at drop of hat? Who doesn't hate it these days when Uncle Billy has to move back into the garage? He's your uncle, think about it.

I mean, the 50s/60s promoted the Nuclear Family for some reason, and it was probably intended to blow up extended family ties, which can make a populace harder to track and control, and because Nuclear Families tend to drive up demand for discrete housings, and also any and all household goods and resources that can no longer be shared. Hmm.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by diogenes4 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:29PM (#37653186)
> Affordable housing is defined by the U.S Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) as housing that does not require a household to spend more than 30 percent of its gross monthly income on housing costs.

This is fantastic, and I do think this definition is meaningful, but what legally binds this definition to what politicians and interest groups discuss? Without a legal binding the term "affordable housing" will continue to be a floating signifier indicating housing that is somehow affordable to all people, conveniently without defining the mechanism by which this will be delivered.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by NoZebra120vClip on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:58PM (#37654145)
Every year, HUD establishes the ceilings for rental payments, plus utility allowances. Let's say that the ceiling in Houston is $1,800 for a 1BR apartment. That means that landlords who charge $1,800 or less to rent such a unit, are the only ones eligible to participate in the HCV (Section 8) program.

Therefore, people will colloquially refer to HCV-participant communities as "Affordable Housing" because if a landlord charges $1801.00, they're not eligible to receive HUD payments and HCV holders literally can't afford to live there.

Therefore, the landlords are presented with a bright-line; either they're in this public housing "project" or they're not.

Speaking of Projects, the "old way" was for HUD to build the buildings and HUD more-or-less directly managed the Project Housing, and the way it's gone with commercial landlords is a relatively new development, if you will.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by J_Shelby_J on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:49AM (#37643772)
Building any housing is building affordable housing.

Adding one home at the top of the price range, increases the number of affordable homes for someone, somewhere, by at least one.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by adra on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:34AM (#37644470)
Come tell that to the residents of Vancouver. We've had countless luxury condos made year after year for two decades and we're at around 3k/mo for a 1br.. tell us more about how building units that "regular" people can never afford that it's always helping them.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by JumpCrisscross on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:04AM (#37645021)
> tell that to the residents of Vancouver. We've had countless luxury condos made year after year

Developing in Vancouver is outrageously expensive. Its voters chose a lengthy approval process for new housing. High housing costs are a political choice.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:05AM (#37645044)
It's like induced demand, but for houses! "Just one more house!"

At some point the market would flood and there wouldn't be as much demand anymore, but if every single person in Canada wants to live in Vancouver everyone is in for a world of hurt until Vancouver has 30 million dwelling units.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by coryrc on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:24AM (#37645357)
Your population is booming. You're not building as much as you think you are.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by adra on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:23PM (#37649201)
A little bit dated (probably by a year) https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230613/dq230...

The building of dwellings has outpaced immigration so that alone is unlikely a silver bullet.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by onepointsixC on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:35PM (#37648503)
Where exactly do you think the people who afford those luxury condo live right now? In the woods? And just because "countless" have been built doesn't meant that there have been enough to meet demand.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by rendang on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:22PM (#37650057)
Canada also has one of the highest immigration rates in the world
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by macNchz on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:01AM (#37644973)
It’s exasperating how many people will fight this. I believe it has been supported by research as well. Anecdotal, but I experienced it firsthand:

Several years ago I was living in a lovely, historic, but no-frills apartment in a desirable area (Cobble Hill, Brooklyn) when several new “luxury” apartment buildings opened nearby, all around the same time. They were only a bit more expensive but offered lots of amenities (doorman, elevator, gym etc) that my building didn’t have.

The impact was remarkable: when other apartments in my building went on the market they sat unrented for weeks, when they’d previously rented in hours. The landlord actually lowered the rent on them! In NYC! Our lease was up soon after, and we managed to negotiate that they gut renovate our kitchen in exchange for extending our lease.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by blharr on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:48PM (#37654077)
>They were only a bit more expensive

Not to be a doubter, but it seems like this note completely changes the context of the problem they stated. A slightly more expensive housing is competitive with the current housing you had. A higher-end luxury building being built costing 10x as much would likely have different effects.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by throwawaaarrgh on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:51PM (#37647860)
> affordability is not an intrinsic value of a building

Value is, by definition, "An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return." Having the money to buy a house (for its advertised value) or not is what determines if you can afford it or not.

If you can't afford a house it's not affordable. If your city has housing, but a large population who can't afford said houses, then you have unaffordable housing. If you don't have any housing at all, you still don't have affordable housing.

This isn't really something worth debating. Affordable housing is a very well established part of the governance of cities, regardless of what contortions a blogger wants to use to reframe a discussion away from economic inequality.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by diogenes4 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:10AM (#37643188)
It would help if there were any consensus on what actually constitutes affordable housing.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by FuriouslyAdrift on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:11AM (#37644069)
Rent/Mortgage under or equal to 28% net income.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by diogenes4 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:12PM (#37653052)
That's hardly a consensus.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by EMM_386 on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:24AM (#37644301)
Each state will calculate them differently, for example, New Jersey offers Excel spreadsheets to show exactly how they calculate it.

> The calculators below are for use by administrative agents and developers of affordable housing to determine the initial sales prices and rents for affordable units in compliance with the Uniform Housing Affordability Controls (UHAC).

https://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/lps/hss/calculators.html

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by diogenes4 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:12PM (#37653051)
taps the lack of consensus sign
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by fifticon on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:25AM (#37643396)
I wonder why the Robin Hood issue is never a problem when money is moved in the opposite direction :-)
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:41AM (#37643659)
Did anyone force all those students to take student loans?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by voisin on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:57AM (#37643877)
Education has traditionally been a primary method for upward economic mobility. Once student loans became a thing, colleges jacked up tuition to put it out of reach of anyone but the super wealthy unless student loans were used.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:57AM (#37643888)
But no one forced those people to take on those loans.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by voisin on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:33AM (#37644462)
Not explicitly but the choice is “stay in your economic class or invest in the only thing reliably proven to improve your future”.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:35AM (#37644503)
And those who do not want to deal with the risk of going through school and not getting a better job to pay for the onerous loans can just remain in their economic class.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by HPsquared on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:12AM (#37645165)
People basically did remain in the economic class though. The school doesn't have much to do with it. Has class mobility significantly increased since the adoption of mass tertiary education?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by slt2021 on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:44AM (#37645718)
and why people invested noname colleges with degrees in psychology, english lit, gender studies?

and then act surprised when they get out with zero useful skills

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by Daishiman on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:11AM (#37645155)
No one forced me to not try the one thing everyone says will keep you out of poverty.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:21AM (#37645296)
Did you consider that everyone might have been making a mistake when they equated taking on large loans with getting out of poverty?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by Daishiman on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:44PM (#37663954)
I consider a society in which people are not given sufficient information to make intelligent choices for the future to be pretty dystopian.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @08:47PM (#37668155)
Are you able to do arithmetic?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by ohyes on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:59AM (#37643912)
Yes. They literally have to or they’ve got no chance at competing in the job market.

They’re screwed either way, might as well get 4 years of college out of it.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:00AM (#37643935)
Anecdotally, I can name plenty of people near me who hold full time jobs without needing a four year degree.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by ebiester on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:22AM (#37645328)
Certainly. I see them around here too.

They make 12-15 dollars an hour. That's 2400 dollars a month. That means at 30% of income (rental maximum in most areas), they can afford $720. (This assumes that they can work 40 hours. Their hours are often variable because they need two jobs - places mostly hire part time to avoid needing to give out health care.)

There are only a handful of apartments in the area that will rent a two bedroom for 1400. (I assume a roommate.) So, considering a moderate cost of living area, you are unlikely to ever make it out of sharing an apartment as nearly every job paying more than $30 an hour in this city requires a bachelor's degree.

Look around your job. How many people don't have a four year degree? It is near impossible to make it up the ladder without one.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:25AM (#37645372)
The people I know making lower wages typically rent or live in places with not such a high expense. Their apartments are not as upscale as others are, but they are certainly livable.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by ebiester on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:34AM (#37645530)
I live in one of those places. This is a medium cost of living area. That's how much rent has gone up in the past decade in most places that they've raised the de facto minimum wage to 11 bucks, and I wasn't even counting those who live at the real edges. I'm talking about people who are doing reasonably but not excessively well for themselves with high school degrees.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:44AM (#37645716)
Inflation where I live has driven entry level job wages much higher than 11 bucks. I haven't seen rent rise quickly to match it - where I've seen the most price gouging in response has generally been on car payments and electricity.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by kergonath on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:15PM (#37651454)
Anecdotally, plenty of people win the lottery. It does not make playing a sound strategy or something that works on average.

Sure, some will be alright. However, looking at statistics, the best way of not falling behind in terms of income is to get a good degree. Because that’s what we are talking about: average wages have been increasing more slowly than inflation for quite a few decades now. So we are talking about a generation falling behind, not a greedy generation.

It’s less and less the case that a degree is the best path forward (depending on the field), but still.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:10AM (#37658767)
Going for a college drop is analogous to the lottery, because losers will end up further behind those that skipped the expensive degree and lost money to inflation.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:21AM (#37645295)
This is the bill of goods sold by the for-profit colleges themselves (all colleges are for-profit even if non-profit, the people profiting are the administration and staff, which balloons to consume all revenue).

We could reduce student usury by demanding that all loans be paid back at a maximum percentage of income for a set number of years. If the degree isn't worth 5% of expected job salary for 15 years, too bad. Obviously the numbers can be adjusted but the whole sale pitch is "spend $X, get a leg up on the pile and make twice $x yearly". Just codify that, and suddenly the loan companies are on the hook for $500k loans for basketweaving degrees that produce baristas.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by scottLobster on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:25AM (#37644319)
Uh, in my upper middle class DC suburb you were socially looked down on if you didn't go to college, and no one taught us even basic finance. I have friends who's parents literally put the forms in front of them, told them to sign it so they could go to college. They didn't know what they were signing, now they're possibly on the hook for the rest of their lives

So "forced"? Not with a gun to their head, but when every authority figure, parent and friend you've ever trusted tells you to do the thing at 17...

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:28AM (#37644363)
The parents knew what they were getting into, still. They were making a decision knowing the consequences.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by wibbily on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:37AM (#37645589)
So, if the parents are at fault, how is it appropriate to let the children shoulder the consequences?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:40AM (#37645654)
If one could make a case for it, I wouldn't mind in these specific scenarios of parents coercing their children to sign contracts that the financial burdens be transferred to their parents (parents who often tend to help pay such bills anyway). But is that what people generally propose as a solution?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by unethical_ban on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:31AM (#37644419)
Their parents, society, etc.

I won't convince you because you've got your anecdotes. Though I'd say if a public school counselor, parents and teachers all tell a 17 year old it's "college or bust", it's laughable to argue "ah, those teenagers should have been rational, informed consumers of professional training and eschewed the advice of every trusted adult in their life".

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:33AM (#37644451)
It does not take professional training to see the price tag of a student loan and to question if one can reasonably pay it off in the future. Certainly, someone equipped with the skills needed to be accepted into a college that costs so much should be able to do the math required on that calculation.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by unethical_ban on Monday September 25, 2023 @10:35AM (#37644492)
I disagree.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by kjkjadksj on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:58PM (#37647021)
Covering compound interest isnt even a requirement in high school
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:02PM (#37647083)
Compound interest shouldn't be the primary factor in rejecting a four to five digit loan when you have low or zero income.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:59PM (#37648856)
> four to five digit loan

Bro, when did you last look at the cost of college, the 70s?

I went to a community college and then transferred to a state college that was also in my town, so I didn't have to pay absurd dorm expenses. I worked 30-35 hours a week while going to college.

I still came out with ~$45K in loan debt.

And you're proposing even the possibility of a four-digit loan?

> when you have low or zero income.

Have you missed the part where adults are lying to children and telling them that the high salary their degree will earn them will pay for the loan?

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:35PM (#37649375)
I think a four digit loan is already on the high end when one also needs to get a car, find a place to live and to rent, with no savings. You arguing that it is consistently much higher makes my case against taking loans stronger, not weaker.

>Have you missed the part where adults are lying to children and telling them that the high salary their degree will earn them will pay for the loan?

Lying to teenagers who should, at some point, use their own judgment. You signed a paper for the loans, yes? Were you able to calculate that it would equal 45K or more of debt? How did you, yourself, think that you would manage to climb out of that debt with a job that you did not have, and would only have a chance of getting four years after graduating?

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by ericjmorey on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:13PM (#37647285)
The point is that the majority did question it. It's a very uncertain proposition which is why they sought after the advice of people they trust with more life experiences and knowledge.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by thatguy0900 on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:44PM (#37648634)
I think the fact that student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy is a nod to the fact that everyone involved knows that the people taking them are largely uneducated about what they are.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by bombcar on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:23AM (#37645356)
If you change "sell yourself into loan slavery for 30 years" with "create pornography" or "drink alcohol" or "enlist for war" or "buy guns" or "any number of age restricted things" suddenly everyone is all up in arms about how the 17 year old cannot be trusted to make an informed decision.

But when it's in the service of the finance industry - bam; all gone!

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jklinger410 on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:18AM (#37645251)
They absolutely did. And once you realize that, you will have reached a new level of emotional and intellectual maturity.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:21AM (#37645311)
Who forced these students to take the loans, exactly? Do you have a list of names?
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jklinger410 on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:39AM (#37645621)
Their parents and an entire propaganda machine coming from the school system, local, and federal governments.

Children were told "you can be anything you want to be" and also "in order to get a good job you have to go to college" which, in effect, forced children who otherwise didn't need to go to college, to go to college.

In the same way a child cannot consent to sex, a child cannot fight social pressure coming from every institution they have access to. Your insistence on the word force is manipulative, pointless, and in bad faith.

It's like birthing an animal in captivity and setting up a snare trap outside the only exit to their cage and then claiming you are hunting when they step on it. Truly disgusting.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:43AM (#37645702)
I was told such things too. I also can process numbers. I knew that taking on an extra cost I could not pay would not be worth it without a guarantee of a high paying job, which is not something offered by going to school.

The younger generations certainly seem capable of that reasoning. They aren't taking on nearly as many student loans.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by jklinger410 on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:57AM (#37645970)
> I knew that taking on an extra cost I could not pay would not be worth it without a guarantee of a high paying job, which is not something offered by going to school.

Except this was exactly what was offered. Schools used to brag about placement rates. This message came from your parents, the staff at your school, etc.

Setting up, I repeat, a literal trap for children to fall into, and then getting on this stupid high horse about how you didn't fall for it. I cannot begin to express how depraved that concept is, and I know you can't begin to comprehend it. Maybe one day you will.

> The younger generations certainly seem capable of that reasoning. They aren't taking on nearly as many student loans.

That is because they have the mistakes of 2 previous generations as an example and the rhetoric has died down dramatically.

Grow up.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:07PM (#37646165)
The trap the schools set is nasty. But it meets the nasty expectations people had that the economic boom of the 40s-50s, where everyone could just keep going to college and getting a high paying job and living it good forever. Some lessons you can only learn the hard way.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by JTbane on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:11PM (#37648157)
100% agree. Also, to a young adult, student loans are a nigh-irresistible way to get away from your parents and gain independence, while worrying about the costs later.
Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:55PM (#37648787)
This is a bad faith question.

Sure, nobody forced them to take out loans, but for me, the propaganda all throughout high school was "If you want a high paying job, you need to go to college!" and then was told not to worry about the costs and student loan payments, the higher paying job will pay for itself.

Four years of every adult you trust. Your parents, teachers, counselors, and other school faculty. The same message. Go to college. Go to college. Go to college. Don't worry about the loans, the higher salary will pay for it. It's an investment. It doesn't even matter what you get a degree in, employers just like to see you had the discipline and sense of responsibility to complete it.

And then we get out of college, and then we find out we've been lied to. We were children and the adults that we were supposed to trust were lying to us. The degree didn't guarantee a job by any means. Worse yet, many jobs require the degree, but then pay $20/hr, while you're trying to pay $700+/month in student loan payments.

And then dickheads like you come in and pour salt on the wounds.

In short, people with an attitude like yours need to get fucked. Children are being lied to by the adults they trust, and then getting blamed for not being able to handle the responsibilities they took on based on the lies.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by c_crank on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:59PM (#37648848)
Why keep calling these people children past the age of twelve? There's a term for that period. Adolescence. It's supposed to imply some level of growth in independence and the ability to discern reality.

Yes, these adults gave these teenagers terrible advice. But the fact of the matter is, they can see exactly how much they would have to pay, with a job that they had no guarantee of. Teenagers of the current age have stopped listening to that advice. If you are stuck with the loans now, all you can do is call out mom, pop, and teachers for misleading you, but also yourself for believing them.

Re:Baby boomers are becoming homeless at a rate not seen sin... by Werewolf255 on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:34AM (#37643550)
"One day -I- will be Sheriff of Nottingham, so it's in my interest to sell out my neighbors to King John."