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Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Fatboyrunning on Thursday July 06, 2023 @12:57AM (#36611470)
The absence of real applications incorporating this stuff is damning.

Where are the killer apps?

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by getmeinrn on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:37AM (#36611718)
I think we're just scratching the surface of apps. As we figure out how to integrate this technology in novel ways (not just "here's my app + AI!!!!"), it will open new doors.

Shameless self-promotion, I'm trying to build some of those intermediary pieces. I have authored an open source library[1] that lets businesses externalize LLMs to their users, so that users can use natural language to query their data in your database. The goal is to try to simplify UIs to have more natural language components, without needing to send your data to an LLM.

1. https://github.com/amoffat/HeimdaLLM

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:32AM (#36611687)
ChatGPT is the killer app. It’s a Google killer. It is better than the SEO listicle garbage filling the internet. Even if it’s not always accurate it’s still better in a lot of circumstances. There’s a reason Sundar rushed Bard out of the gate even though it is clearly inferior.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by distortedsignal on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:55AM (#36611843)
I’ll push back on this, at least in its current iteration. I just asked it to list some restaurants near my apartment (major intersection in San Jose) and it wasn’t particularly close. While there are several restaurants less than half a mile from the intersection, ChatGPT listed restaurants from several miles away.

Given the “weights in a matrix” architecture of ChatGPT, I’m not sure it’s possible to store enough data to make the query practical to answer. Say there are a couple hundred intersections in my city. You have to store the token of “restaurant name” “close to” “intersection” for each intersection. I don’t know the size of Google’s Maps DB, but I would guess it’s several Gigabytes per city. From my understanding of the theory, you would need to store BOTH the LLM weights AND the Maps data for ChatGPT to have a shot at generating good answers for that type of query.

I’m happy to be wrong here. If I’m misunderstanding something, please let me know.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by literalAardvark on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:07AM (#36611938)
You're not wrong at all, it doesn't know everything.

But it does know a lot of things and can be super useful. Personally i think search engine is a terrible use case, unless you use the Bing enabled version, or bing chat.

I've used it to write pretty complicated scripts where I had no idea what I was doing, rebuild crusty httpd configs from first principles, explain disassembled code, explain regular code, explain configs, read dmidecode and lspci for me and make a pcie slot report... It's bloody brilliant.

Other: read and translated my blood tests. Accurately!

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Nerada on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:08AM (#36611945)
Tangentially related, I had GPT-4 plan the sightseeing on my latest holiday.

It both picked out the interesting places of note, and then I asked it to plan them in such a way that made sense walking-wise (so I wasn't backtracking) and it did so without a hiccup.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:45AM (#36612195)
Well you’re right since ChatGPT isn’t hooked up to the internet, so certain queries aren’t good use cases. Adding maps info to a language model would be a pretty bad idea (even if it didn’t hallucinate) since it can change at any time, which would require more (expensive) training.

What Bing does is to use your query to search the web and use the top N search results in the context window for the chat.

However I’ll push back on your pushback. ChatGPT doesn’t need to be perfect to be a killer app. It is highly flawed. Maybe it was a bit to strident to say ChatGPT will kill Google search, but it’s strictly better for a lot of squishy queries that don’t have a factual basis.

How can I convince my boss to give me a raise? gets you a listicle on Google and a highly specific response on ChatGPT. And if some of the advice doesn’t apply, you can continue directing the conversation. It’s an idea generator, even if some of them are bad or don’t make sense.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by jnsaff2 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:22AM (#36612043)
Step 1. Humans write copy for humans to buy their garbage, humans counter by tuning out and switching channels

Step 2. Humans write SEO copy for machines to rank them higher.

Step 3. LLM writes copy for machines to rank them higher.

Step 4. Human uses LLM to try to distill the LLM generated SEO spam for any remaining signal.

Also to your point:

> SEO listicle garbage filling the internet.

the feeling that the LLM is better than what you described is going to be very temporary, then the mountains of LLM generated bullshit is going to overwhelm even LLM to make meaningful sense of.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:00AM (#36612292)
I’m not following. If ChatGPT gets worse, OpenAI can simply not update it. Or revert to a previous version.

For Google, they’re at the mercy of whatever the internet has.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by jnsaff2 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:27AM (#36612485)
ChatGPT is also at the mercy of whatever the internet has. Including more and more of what it was used to generate.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:21AM (#36613329)
It isn’t though. Like I said, if the model gets worse OpenAI can simply not release a new version.

You also have to consider the money angle. As using ChatGPT and other chatbots becomes more popular, people will stop producing garbage internet articles because they will be less popular and therefore less profitable. Bloggers who enjoy writing will continue to do so because it was never about the money, they just enjoy writing.

Further, the internet is only one small portion of information available to train on. There’s a lot of other data out there, including real-world conversations.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by jnsaff2 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:51AM (#36613570)
I understand what you are saying but to me it sounds very handwavy and (not to be disrespectful) naive.

How would LLM upstarts be able to counter the massive commercial interests? As with google they will also succumb to prefer money over usefulness at latest when they have a wide user base.

There is also an even less proven way of distinguishing spam from signal with LLMs.

And not updating a model means that they will be stuck in COVID-19 era forever.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Volundr on Thursday July 06, 2023 @10:42AM (#36616678)
> Like I said, if the model gets worse OpenAI can simply not release a new version.

So now it's got great information about the Model T Ford but knows nothing about our new mars colony?

I don't think "just don't update the model" is a likely option.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:47PM (#36620867)
You don’t update models to add new information. That’s extremely inefficient and susceptible to catastrophic forgetting. If you want the model to have new information you update an offline knowledge base. So yes you can simply not update the model.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Volundr on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:50PM (#36621812)
Huh? You won't update the model you'll just give it new information? The exact concern is that the new information will be garbage aimed at pushing the model to produce certain output. Much like SEO spammers do to manipulate Google search results.

"Just don't update the model, only feed it new information" is exactly how to get to the outcome of concern in this thread.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by janalsncm on Thursday July 06, 2023 @10:00PM (#36626048)
Yes, updating the model is different from updating the knowledge base the model uses.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Volundr on Thursday July 06, 2023 @11:26PM (#36626719)
Great, so you've updated your knowledge base, it's got garbage targeted to make it attractive to the model, and now your model is outputting garbage. It's the exact same problem Google has fighting the SEO spammers. Now the model is significantly less useful, exactly as suggested.

We've already seen exactly this happened with search. There's no reason to believe that LLMs are immune.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by friend_and_foe on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:03AM (#36612311)
You're missing the point. If we want to know something, we won't even have to google it; we will just ask an LLM. There will be no market for websites full of it because we can just directly ask it to answer our questions.

The only "if" to all this is if we will destroy the LLMs by feeding them their own diarrhea. I expect a sort of natural selection here to play out, especially in the open source space. Ones that are trained on LLM generated blogspam will probably, I expect, get outperformed by ones that are trained on genuine information, or at the very least ones made using new techniques that adequately filter noise.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by mcphage on Thursday July 06, 2023 @08:52AM (#36615001)
> If we want to know something, we won't even have to google it; we will just ask an LLM. There will be no market for websites full of it because we can just directly ask it to answer our questions.

How will it learn anything new?

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by mrguyorama on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:21PM (#36621389)
But there's still no way to get an LLM to only output "fact", because that's not a property of language.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by ben_w on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:24AM (#36628355)
That's also true of a web search engine; but an LLM can (in principle, not saying it's there yet) be able to spot inconsistencies in the source data, to notice disagreement.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by jmye on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:46PM (#36623541)
> Ones that are trained on LLM generated blogspam will probably, I expect, get outperformed by ones that are trained on genuine information, or at the very least ones made using new techniques that adequately filter noise.

Yes, humans are notorious for only seeking out high quality, accurate data, especially when it conflicts with our priors.

To say nothing of our ability to assess the accuracy or truthiness of information in the first place (look at how many people take, on faith, that Chat GPT isn’t wrong as often as it is right).

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by thefz on Thursday July 06, 2023 @04:06AM (#36612737)
> ChatGPT is the killer app. It’s a Google killer. It is better than the SEO listicle garbage filling the internet.

And yet it hallucinates URLs when I ask it to cite its sources. It's still Google search with a little patience for me.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by MattPalmer1086 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @04:34AM (#36612965)
It is not a direct replacement for search engines, but it will seriously dent their market share.

If you are looking for a location on the internet, use a search engine. LLMs do not memorise the data sources verbatim.

If you want to know how to do something, it will normally give you a better answer than you would find by googling around multiple blogs. No location on the internet needed.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by potatoman22 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:32AM (#36611688)
They'll come as more engineers understand how to integrate LLM tech more effectively into products.

Also, killer app: ChatGPT. Fastest growing website ever IIRC.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by flangola7 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:39AM (#36611736)
> Where are the killer apps?

Even though it is just a bare kernel (LLM), GPT-4 is a better teacher than any I've ever had. Who can I ask at 3AM on a Saturday night to explain ancient Greek philosophy using dwarf fortress mechanics? And iterate with infinite patience and focus on any follow up questions?

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by klipklop on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:40AM (#36612566)
This is one of the most compelling use cases. It’s dramatically reduced research time on certain topics for me. If I have a “question” I don’t go to google first anymore.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by bombcar on Thursday July 06, 2023 @08:13PM (#36625189)
You must reveal the results. Armok demands it.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by riku_iki on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:31AM (#36611680)
to me potential killer app is the search, you already now can find better answers fast in many verticals asking chatgpt than going through the tons of seo spam at google.
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by spaceman_2020 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:52AM (#36611821)
Health and medical queries are a big one for me. The top results in Google are the same cookie cutter responses from the same 5-10 domains. There is no expertise there - just an article ghost written by a freelance writer with a random doctor’s name attached to it.

With the right prompt, chatGPT gives me far better insight and can even point out academic papers to back its claims.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by jmye on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:51PM (#36623593)
There are no health issues that anyone should ever be using Chat GPT for - the hallucinations are very real, and often severe. Not that you should be googling your symptoms either - there’s a reason we put medical folks through more than a few minutes of training.

LLMs are absolutely worthless for medical information.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by ben_w on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:27AM (#36628376)
I wouldn't trust them with my life, but out of curiosity I did put some medical notes into 3.5 a few weeks back.

It said basically the same thing as the actual doctor.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by riku_iki on Friday July 07, 2023 @11:46AM (#36633498)
> LLMs are absolutely worthless for medical information.

chatgpt gives you initial hint/direction, and then you can research specifics by finding actual information in search engine and see if it is hallucinated or not.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by spaceman_2020 on Sunday July 09, 2023 @02:48AM (#36652228)
I’ve gone to multiple doctors for my problems and most of them have only made it worse. Most doctors I’ve met get dumbfounded when the problem is anything more complex than a straightforward case.

And I say this as someone married into a family of doctors.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by mcphage on Friday July 07, 2023 @12:14AM (#36627015)
> can even point out academic papers to back its claims

Please, please tell me you at least read these academic papers to make sure they claim what ChatGPT said they're claiming?

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by Dalewyn on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:14AM (#36611543)
Where are they? Anything involving creativity.

There is a reason most creative professionals are screaming to the nine high heavens of hell for dear mercy, because they are in the best position to see the writing on the wall.

The current deconstruction of intellectual property rights is damning and must be rectified, but even putting that aside "AI" is still going to eliminate the vast majority of creative occupations because a supercomputer is still cheaper than a human on the payroll or invoice.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by threeseed on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:42AM (#36611759)
Adobe Photoshop, Canva, Final Cut Pro, Notion, Microsoft Office etc.

AI is popping up all over the place if you actually pay attention to the products.

Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by rajnathani on Friday July 07, 2023 @05:41AM (#36629354)
* * *
Re:My small, no name company has lost its mind with AI by spaceman_2020 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:50AM (#36611808)
Chat GPT is already a killer app for me at least.

I’ve used it to code, learn, generate tweet threads, create upwork job posts, summarize large amounts of text.

With the right prompt, its a far better search engine than Google, especially for coding and health related queries.

If you can be a Google killer, you don’t need any other killer apps.