News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by akira2501 on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:29PM (#36544047)
> This version of the Internet is starting to suck. :(

The internet is fine. The highly centralized businesses that built themselves on the technology are meeting their inevitable end.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by tourmalinetaco on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:37PM (#36544130)
If anything, nature is healing. I’ve noticed at least 1 community return to forums due to all of this (https://mholdschool.com/), and while unfortunately AFAIK there isn’t any good FLOSS software for it, it’s certainly a start.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by goldenkey on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:44PM (#36544219)
What happened to vBulletin by Jelsoft? Needs to be open sourced.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by rafark on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:04PM (#36544430)
People use xenforo now, which was created by some former developers of vbulletin so it’s very similar.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by goldenkey on Tuesday July 04, 2023 @08:45PM (#36594316)
Will have to check it out, thanks!
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Jenk on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:01PM (#36544396)
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by fatfox on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:43PM (#36545852)
Woltlab are still around as well. IIRC Burning Board was vBulletin’s fiercest competitor at the time
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by gbear605 on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:45PM (#36544227)
PhpBB is GPLv2, and it still works just fine. Discourse is also GPL, if you’re looking for a more modern look. There are a number of others too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_s...)
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by rodolphoarruda on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:48PM (#36544901)
The UI looks the same after all those 20 years.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by gaius_baltar on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:53PM (#36544946)
And this is a feature!
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by agent281 on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:32PM (#36545778)
Literally feel waves of nostalgia looking at that layout. It's perfect!
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by ekianjo on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:05PM (#36545584)
Which means it works?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by rodolphoarruda on Friday June 30, 2023 @11:00PM (#36545981)
Good question. It seems to be a half empty/full glass situation.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by leereeves on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:45PM (#36545425)
Does PhpBB have an adaptive layout? I've used several older forums that require scrolling sideways because they don't.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by qup on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:25PM (#36545727)
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by zappchance on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:46PM (#36544239)
[dead]
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Jenk on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:02PM (#36544417)
Umm..

> Discourse is the 100% open source discussion platform built for the next decade of the Internet

Are you thinking of Discord?

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by jasonmp85 on Sunday July 02, 2023 @06:23PM (#36566437)
I am, thanks. But also Discourse is so terrible that it should be excluded too.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by greggh on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:31PM (#36544697)
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by animesh on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:37PM (#36544769)
Zig community at reddit was closed recently and they decided to make its discourse instance as the primary discussion center.

https://ziggit.dev/

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by brabel on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:24AM (#36547236)
Discourse is going to pull the same shenanigans as Reddit and Twitter, you can be sure of that. No one is going to host millions of users for free, forever, they'll all come around to get their investment back one day.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by proto_lambda on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:43AM (#36547372)
What? Discourse is free software, they aren't "hosting millions of users" at all, nevemind for free.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by brabel on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:43AM (#36547747)
Someone is going to have to host users.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by proto_lambda on Saturday July 01, 2023 @04:49AM (#36548138)
Yes, the respective projects themselves. If you can't trust a project not to fuck over its users, why are you so concerned about the hosting of their discussion platform in particular, rather than just about everything else?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by chienandalou on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:09AM (#36547540)
Are you thinking of Discord?

https://discord.com vs https://www.discourse.org

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by udev4096 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:40AM (#36547729)
Think before you speak. Discourse is a self-hostable solution
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by brabel on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:45AM (#36547759)
Do you think self-hosting means "it's free to host"? Do you understand someone is paying the costs of hosting, and that someone can do whatever the hell they want to recover such costs?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by justcool393 on Sunday July 02, 2023 @05:31AM (#36559827)
usually those costs, for a specific community, are not very high. not sure about discourse specifically, but you can serve thousands of users for relatively cheaply.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Roark66 on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:56PM (#36544353)
Bingo! It's only a matter of time another service takes over. I would be extremely surprised if at any given time there wasn't at least two startups in the dark trying to be the next twitter. Just waiting for the right moment for a large group of people to get pissed off at twitter to launch their service to the public.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by jasonmp85 on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:00PM (#36544387)
To not know of any is sort of weird. To believe a for-profit enterprise should replace the last is unspeakably dumb.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by 7e on Friday June 30, 2023 @07:59PM (#36544374)
Why are centralized businesses doomed to fail? It’s been the primary organizational mode for the last 10,000 years.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by grugagag on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:14PM (#36544520)
Pressure to squeeze out profits continously until there’s nothing but a husk left.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by mr_00ff00 on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:38PM (#36544787)
Except weren’t all these services running at a loss?

How would smaller companies do better?

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by keldtin on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:48PM (#36544900)
The key here is that the environment of near-zero interest rates these services proliferated in is over, so there is a drive to wall up and monetize their content more aggressively. That will probably fail, because all value they had was in community interaction. Who would want to train an LLM on post-2023 twitter content?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Parmenidea on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:07AM (#36546792)
Why do you think ZIRP won’t come back eventually?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by rglullis on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:29PM (#36545284)
By actually charging for their services?

For every gmail, how many independent email providers do you think exist out there?

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by mr_00ff00 on Friday June 30, 2023 @11:51PM (#36546334)
Right but isn’t that what they are claiming would drive people away from the big companies?

Why would you choose to not pay for the big tech products and then pay for a smaller version?

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by rglullis on Saturday July 01, 2023 @06:33AM (#36548649)
Because Big Tech demands big profits. They can not exist in worlds where they can not have a monopoly or oligopoly.

Smaller companies and ISVs, on the other hand, will be better off if their market is commoditized. They won't have to spend so much to compete in R&D, they just need to find each the best way to serve their (comparatively) small customer base.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by gpxyz on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:49PM (#36544911)
Genuinely curious: which centralized businesses existed in 8000 BCE?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by z2h-a6n on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:58PM (#36545004)
And more to the point, what fraction of centralized businesses in the past 10,000 (or even 1,000, or even 100) years did not eventually fail?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by roughly on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:06PM (#36545074)
As the saying goes, the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay liquid - everything eventually falls, but Twitter's not on the long side of "eventually" here.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by djbusby on Friday June 30, 2023 @11:49PM (#36546316)
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Nemo_bis on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:27AM (#36547648)
I would bet that the first multinational organization to corner an intercontinental market was the apostolic church of Rome.

If https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_international_trad... is right, the necessary technology for international trade was not available before 4000 BCE (horse riding ~3700 BCE, long-distance sea travel ~2000 BCE).

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by roughly on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:04PM (#36545050)
Two notes on this:

One is that centralized _business_ has certainly not been the primary organizational mode. You can talk about centralized _government_ (of whatever variety you'd like), but the distinction there is that the centralized government had some sense of itself in an ecosystem - a citizenry, a land, a future, etc. - and businesses do not.

The second is that centralized entities sure wrote a bunch of stuff _down_, but it's hard to say they were the primary organizational mode for any but the last 50-200 years - the reach of serious centralized bureaucracies has only really begun to match their propaganda in the industrial and now computer age. Until extremely recently, the actual effective reach of a centralized bureaucracy was a day's horseback ride - control degrades rapidly as one leaves the core. "Heaven is high and the emperor is far away", as the saying goes.

Edit: With regards to the second note, "Against the Grain" by James C. Scott is a solid read.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Dalewyn on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:10PM (#36545102)
It's not centralized businesses that inevitably fail, it's businesses that become top dog that inevitably fail.

If you own a company and want it to last through the ages and you aren't literally the only guy in town, never become number one. Aim high, but don't hit the top.

The same can be said for countries and practically any organization or group. You stay an underdog if you do not want to ever fail.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by dizhn on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:48AM (#36547401)
This doesn't make intuitive sense. Are you sure you're not seeing the results of survivorship bias? Or is there a mechanism in place that kills top players?
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Dalewyn on Saturday July 01, 2023 @05:51AM (#36548426)
It's because once you're top dog, you stop aiming high and start maintaining your top spot. You stop being ambitious and innovative, instead you start being anxious and wearing rose colored glasses.

That leads to complacency, corruption, and delusion, ultimately leading to failure.

Everyone and everything from mundane individuals to megacorporations and empires have all fallen from grace once they became top dog. No exceptions.

If you want to last, aim high but don't become top dog.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by hgs3 on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:27PM (#36545256)
> It’s been the primary organizational mode for the last 10,000 years.

For most of human history, most businesses were small ma and pa shops operated by a few local people. These days large business chains are the norm. You could say that centralized big business killed the decentralized small ma and pa shops.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Jenk on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:02PM (#36544406)
> This killed nitter.

I suspect that was the intent.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by jonathankoren on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:46PM (#36544881)
Yeah. Honestly, at this point you have to think the ketamine isn’t being microdosed[0], or the whole Twitter escapade is an intentional op to burn down an account independent forum that has frequently been a source of pain for those in power.

I suspect the later. We’ve seen billionaires do it countless times.

[0] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by labster on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:54PM (#36544960)
Man, you don’t need the special K to see that Elon is not great at non-engineering things.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by wombatpm on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:48PM (#36545443)
An admitted Aspie not getting SOCIAL media. Color my surprised.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by halostatue on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:40PM (#36545827)
Elon is not great at engineering things, either. The main thing that he’s great at is self promotion and convincing people that they should give him (even more) money.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by photonerd on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:47PM (#36544893)
Likely more of a bonus. I doubt anyone at Twitter factored nitter into any business decisions.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by lucb1e on Friday June 30, 2023 @08:49PM (#36544915)
Nah, how many people are using Twitter without being logged in compared to how many people legitimately change every link they receive to Nitter?

I used the 'redirect to nitter' Firefox extension and Android app but it got quite unreliable and nobody else that I know uses nitter at all. I think Nitter users would be a tiny, perhaps even immeasurable minority compared to casual readers that now are incentivized to either log in or fuck off (but... FOMO).

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by Jenk on Saturday July 01, 2023 @12:05PM (#36551572)
I didn't mean nitter _specifically_ but rather all forms of alternative/anonymous UIs for twitter (that strip all of the engagement/ad/tracking stuff from twitter.)

Of anything I suspect Elon saw what happened woth reddit and had a "wait, we should do that!" Moment.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by calebcannon on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:48PM (#36545437)
The internet is most definitely not fine. There is an incoming tsunami of chat gpt generated bullshit that is going to make most open discussion sites more or less useless. Twitter requiring accounts and Reddit shutting down apis are both related: chat gpt et al are a threat to the social media business and ironically made possible because of the social media business. TBF I think we should all be exercising extreme (even more than usual) skepticism on any discussion sites any more.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by mark_l_watson on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:31PM (#36545766)
+1 your concern is valid.

A potential saving grace: I bet within a year or so it will be easy to self-host LLMs that are easy to fine tune and run. Then there will be a few open source tools that you can use yourself, privately, to capture your level of interest while reading, and periodically make a reader/summarize/filter agent.

This is not scary if people can fairly easily run it all themselves, keeping their data private. It would help wade through crap, and there is some irony in using LLMs to have personal filtering and summarization.

Compared to future versions of ChatGPT, Bard, etc. the models that individuals can self host will be much weaker, but I think that they will be strong enough for personal agents and eventually be cheap to run, and affordable to fine tune.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by berniedurfee on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:35PM (#36545799)
And don’t forget net neutrality. ISPs haven’t!

The clock is ticking until you’ll need to decide which internet package you prefer, based on content providers and limited by region.

At least Yahoo will probably come free with the base package.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by matt_s on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:19PM (#36545682)
Social media companies are acting like a drug user who was getting their dope for free but now has to turn tricks behind the dumpster. Easy money (aka low loan rates) has dried up or much harder to justify so companies that have used their user population as a means to profit are realizing they need to charge money for things like blue check marks or API usage when all the VC's won't give them a hit anymore.

Publicly free content from users devolves to garbage content. I think the Chat GPT effect is they're realizing its easier for companies/entities to generate garbage that is at or exceeding the intelligence of comments by actual people (a low bar). Sure there are pockets of usefulness but this is tiny amongst the firehose of garbage.

If all that is publicly available on social platforms is just garbage nonsense, people will just stop going if any barrier is thrown in front of them. The internet as a technology stack is fine. This is how social media dies (hopefully).

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by hext on Friday June 30, 2023 @09:52PM (#36545480)
Right, if you aren’t already doing this, you’re about to have to screen every single comment online in a fucked up game of ‘human or robot’
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by XorNot on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:10PM (#36545618)
I mean this has been true for a while: we've all laboured under the fiction that any given screen name maps 1:1 with a human being.

On every large platform, this hasn't been the majority for a long time.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by KronisLV on Saturday July 01, 2023 @03:02AM (#36547493)
> Right, if you aren’t already doing this, you’re about to have to screen every single comment online in a fucked up game of ‘human or robot’

Hah, this might mean that we'd be one step closer to the dead internet (conspiracy) theory actually being reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory

What an interesting concept.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by safety1st on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:44AM (#36547379)
Sounds to me like the Internet is, in fact, fine. It's only those "open" discussion sites which are having trouble.

Those sites never fit my definition of open anyway (free, permissively licensed technology and content). The ones that do are smaller, aren't a monoculture and seem to be pretty untroubled so far. No one wants to scrape the little Mastodon or Lemmy instances or other small community sites I pay attention to.

Big deal if something is a threat to the social media business. The social media business is a cancer which should be destroyed anyway. Go outside and engage in real socializing instead of the depression-spawning, teen-girl-murdering version peddled by Zuckerberg and Musk. It's much better and once you change your habits you'll never look back. Maybe it has something to do with all the vitamin D you get from being outside.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by MisterBastahrd on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:17AM (#36547191)
Wait until you realize that highly centralized businesses are a feature, not a bug.

We've BEEN through federated platforms before. We've even been through PROTOCOLS before. They're all horrible. The successor to any platform that currently exists will have slight improvements to what already exists, and that's IF they're able to do so.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have over 30 years of being around social media platforms on the internet.

Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by thowawatp302 on Saturday July 01, 2023 @02:31AM (#36547284)
Every time someone says this they forget the internet itself is a federated platform.
Re:Twitter now requires an account to view tweets by MisterBastahrd on Monday July 03, 2023 @02:17AM (#36569477)
Every time someone says this it's because they don't have a credible counterargument to the central premise.