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Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by babuloseo on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:42AM (#36516760)
But where will these new people stay? There is not enough housing being built for people, you are going to see people come here only to leave when they realize that they can't afford the housing for their families there.

Net migration is probably pretty high in Canada right now and will increase once people figure out that there is not enough density or proper housing for them.

Check out these two top threads thread at canadahousing subreddit:

[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/canadahousing/comments/13jl3gf/came...

[2]https://www.reddit.com/r/canadahousing/comments/147p0tx/onta...

I am waiting to see what the cabinet shuffle looks like, but we are probably going to run some billboard campaigns or do some fundraising soon to address the housing crisis if the government is not tackling this properly. If you are Canadian or have interest in this space on addressing these social issues, hit me up.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by hackly on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:51AM (#36516829)
Billboards have run before (“Can’t afford a home? Have you tried having rich parents?”, etc). A protest was organized but very few showed up. None of this work when the ruling class is benefiting from the lack of housing.

You need something more attention grabbing. Something Titan-like that the media will run with for days. Something like what started the Arab spring or similar movements. Not advocating for self-immolation, but it has to be dramatic enough to wake people up.

There are too many incumbents benefiting from the status quo that it’ll take a monumental effort to turn things around.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by dmix on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:17AM (#36516996)
If the primary issue is the wealthy controlling housing then why is the brand new Toronto mayor, a representative of the working class party (NDP), have zero stuff about reforming housing policy like zoning and height limits, or anything about anti-NIMBYism? Basically the stuff that's very obviously been holding back development forever.

Chow would probably be at the front of any Arab Spring type protest in Toronto championing housing.

Yet her whole website is the same shit we've been sold as solutions since the 1970s: city wide rent control that has repeatedly resulted in a long term reduction in housing supply, a small set of new gov built skyscrapers that will take a decade to build and come in at twice the cost of budget, doubling down on disincentivizing renting properties by 2xing the amount of legal worries property renters have to go through when dealing with bad tenants, some weak stuff about city spending $100M to buy homes off the market so they don't get renovated (so basically 10 homes), etc, etc.

https://www.oliviachow.ca/plan

Is the NDP the party of the wealthy elite in Toronto? Over valuing protecting a small amount of exclusive neighbourhoods with old Victorian homes at the expense of the rest of the (very large and varied) city and only ever allowing expensive skyscrapers to be built?

The answer to that might be yes. But it's hard to disconnect those critiques from the language and policies of municipal politics here in Toronto... and almost every major western city. Which always sounds the same, while conventiently blaming someone else.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by nvy on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:18AM (#36517408)
>Is the NDP the party of the wealthy elite in Toronto?

Always has been.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by light_hue_1 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:42AM (#36517581)
> If the primary issue is the wealthy controlling housing then why is the brand new Toronto mayor, a representative of the working class party (NDP), have zero stuff about reforming housing policy like zoning and height limits, or anything about anti-NIMBYism? Basically the stuff that's very obviously been holding back development forever.

I have no idea what you're complaining about. All of the policies you want are what she is promising. And has done.

She made it so that you can now build four story, four unit multiplexes. It's right there on the website you linked. This already happened a few months ago.

And she says "Olivia would streamline, coordinate and simplify the approval process for housing so we can get more built, faster."

And she wants to put a wealth tax on those expensive homes you don't like.

You can complain that the city could move faster. But, all of the things you want are what she is doing.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by dmix on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:09AM (#36520561)
> Olivia would streamline, coordinate and simplify the approval process for housing so we can get more built, faster

Those are generic sentences without substance. Of course the city wants to be efficient. But unless I hear specifics I'm extremely skeptical.

> She made it so that you can now build four story, four unit multiplexes

Good, but city approval for heights is probably the most boring and lowest hanging of my complaints. Zoning reform and NIMBYism is 90% of what reduces supply and kills off meaningful development.

This is a multi-decade crisis, it's not a minor policy debate in city council.

Even if they can get approval for a 4 story multiplex the fact 90% are building skyscrapers instead of other (legal) arrangements happen because it's the only one people are willing to risk $$$ on. It's extremely risky to run a development project in the city, because a) where you can build is severely capped so you have to build as high as possible and b) if you're going to navigate all of roadblocks and NIMBY backed lawyering you better be getting a property who's ROI can fund teams of lawyers and support years of development, often well before any construction start.

If we actually want to solve the housing crisis we literally need to start razing whole blocks of single family homes, industrial areas, old office buildings, etc and build high density housing.

This is radical stuff. Nothing about what Chow is proposing is anywhere close to addressing the crisis.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ZoomerCretin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:22PM (#36523550)
Four unit multiplexes is a joke. No city with a population above 100k should have any restriction on height or density of any kind. With the cost of acquiring a house and the permitting BS, I'm sure very few of these multiplexes will be profitable to build.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wk_end on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:44AM (#36517595)
Why would you expect anything different? Left-NIMBYism is a real - and unfortunate - thing, especially among older members of the left, and Chow's been in politics for 30 years.

I'm a pretty boring social democrat in most regards, so saying this as someone who generally holds fairly leftist views on many things: the leftist ideology, very roughly speaking, believes that government intervention results in better results for the common man than a capitalist market left to its own devices; this gestures directly towards price controls, zoning laws, every kind of regulation, and socialized housing. Leftists are deeply skeptical of market-based solutions; even basic economic principles like supply-and-demand are viewed with skepticism by association with Economics as a field, which tends to be viewed (not totally or necessarily wrongly) as a false science that's more of an ideological tool of capitalists than anything. They view profit-making and companies that seek to make profit - like developers - as fundamentally impure and in need of reining in. And because of decades of urban sprawl in North America, they associate development with environmental destruction, even though, ironically, one important way we could help save the environment is by densifying the hell out of our cities. And don't get me started on fears of gentrification - although there we're beginning to blur the line between "progressives" and leftists, but those lines are already pretty blurred.

I know enough left-NIMBYs to know that their intentions are pure - it's not a case of ladder-kickers. Just a particularly bad strain of thought that's - like you said - pretty widespread in municipal politics. Probably because NIMBYism transcends ideology in a way - there's different kinds of NIMBYism across the spectrum, always with the same outcome, and many voters will happily cross party lines to keep their neighbourhood just the way it is, thank you very much.

Happily, in my experience younger urbanists - even the left-wing ones - tend to (though don't always) recognize the excesses of left-NIMBYism.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by TulliusCicero on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:26AM (#36517836)
They're absolutely ladder-kickers, because they're kicking the ladder.

That they may have nice words and ostensibly good intentions doesn't change the fact that they're kicking the ladder and will continue to do so.

They're only "not ladder kickers" in the same way typical Republicans "aren't sexist" but continue to keep voting for the sexist party.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wk_end on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:59AM (#36522239)
I suppose I should've said they not intentional ladder-kickers; quite the opposite: they genuinely believe that their policies, and only their policies, will actually lead to more affordable housing.

This is in comparison to more conventional NIMBYs, who don't really care - they feel entitled to "preserve neighbourhood character", say things like "city's full, don't move here", that sort of thing.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by JimtheCoder on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:06AM (#36520517)
"Happily, in my experience younger urbanists - even the left-wing ones - tend to (though don't always) recognize the excesses of left-NIMBYism."

They probably had to pay the jacked up real estate prices...

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by davidy123 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:57AM (#36518807)
People are living longer and healthier and more independantly, which means they want to stay in their city homes in their 60s - 80s. What do you want to do, put them in warehouses? Plus there is a lot of immigration, but we need that.

There is an ongoing process of densification, it can be faster but it can't be done too quickly, it's not fair to blot out people's views or destroy neighbourhoods or destroy every remnant of past eras.

With these dynamics it's no surprise that city housing is so expensive, and I don't think it comes down to one factor like interest rates or greedy people, so that billboard is just political pandering. What would your attention-getting measure ask for?

I get the impression a lot of people are complaining they can't afford a family home basically in a prime-ish city location. Can't blame them for wanting that, but an option could be to move outside the cities. Properties are quite affordable, and there are some good transit corridors and decent towns (and advantages of living in the country), though better commuting options will always be welcome.

This is what I've done, an hour outside a city, I'm on a forested acre with a lake, with beautiful views year-round. I'm far from house poor so I can afford to travel all winter or do overnights in any city.

To enable this, I would push for better commuting, with more hubs and extended service so it's super easy to get to downtowns. But resolving scarcity of talent in the trades would also be key.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by davidy123 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:33AM (#36521835)
I didn't mean "but" we need that, I meant "and" we need that. In case there's any doubt, I am 100% for immigration.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joshlemer on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:45AM (#36516784)
I've seen first hand refugees come to Canada from Ukraine, realize that this country is in their words "not a country where you can have an easy life" and within 6 months figure out a way to get to the states.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by peanuty1 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:57AM (#36516870)
I could've been making a great salary in Canada as a new grad but it just didn't make sense to stay when I could make 1.5x more in the US (and in USD!).
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wesapien on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:03AM (#36517318)
Good on you! I wish I could do the same leave Canada.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by f6v on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:58AM (#36516874)
> I've seen first hand refugees come to Canada from Ukraine

Software developers are used to paying sub-10% income tax there (or no tax at all).

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joshlemer on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:00AM (#36516891)
Yeah, that was a big shock for them.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by risyachka on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:37AM (#36517145)
It wasn’t.

Software developers are not allowed to leave Ukraine.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by m00x on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:24AM (#36517454)
I know plenty who have, and there are plenty who were here before.

Why wouldn't they be able to leave?

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by bjord on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:09AM (#36518107)
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like this person is assuming all software developers are (military age) men. I'm not aware of other restrictions on people being able to leave Ukraine.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by rat9988 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:26AM (#36518620)
Military age men are big chunk of ukranian software devs. It's not a small restriction that we can just ignore.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by MichaelZuo on Thursday June 29, 2023 @09:33AM (#36520141)
Quite a lot of folks in Ukraine aren't exactly known for strictly complying with every regulation. There's undoubtedly a huge number of military age men that left regardless, especially among software devs.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by f6v on Friday June 30, 2023 @02:49PM (#36540216)
Well you can’t just walk up to border guards and bribe them. You’ve got to have connections, not everyone does.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by badpun on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:16AM (#36518163)
Even if they aren't, Ukraine is very corrupt, so getting through the border will just cost you a couple thousand euros at most.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by lisasays on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:11AM (#36521461)
Not the best choice of language.

They meant to say "Men of conscription age, hence most software developers ..."

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by lordnacho on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:05AM (#36518474)
Is it much different in the states?
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by grugagag on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:15AM (#36520636)
That’s what I’ve been thinking about. Probably there are many people who take the opposite route, states first then Canada. I only know a few cases though.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joshlemer on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:20AM (#36521606)
Yes, home prices are drastically lower in most of the states than in Canada. Taxes are also lower, and pay is higher.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by screye on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:33AM (#36517117)
As Canada gets more young citizens without building, their home ownership has continued plummeting. [1]

Once there is a critical mass of single-issue pro-housing voters, we can expect to see a huge tsunami of pro-housing bills get passed for this politically lucrative issue.

As of now, old homeowners are the electoral majority. So, pro-housing politics is a losing strategy. But you can only sustain it so long in a nation with at ton of younger owned-home-started immigrants.

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-home...

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by Gareth321 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:46AM (#36517608)
Canada is acute, but this is the same issue in many countries right now. The older, voting generation has voted, every time, to maximise their personal wellbeing at the expense of the younger generations. Because they comprise such a large voting bloc, and they're diligent voters, and they can buy political influence, policies remain catered towards them. I agree that the only solution here is through democracy, and that means demographic changes. In the next 1-2 decades, home owners will be in the minority in many countries. That's when things will get very interesting, politically. In New Zealand, for example, the younger, disenfranchised demographics have been chewed up and spat on their entire lives. We're talking everyone born after 1980. They harbour hate. The political swings are going to be wild. I think there will be enormous land value taxes levied.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by voisin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:54AM (#36518787)
> The older, voting generation has voted, every time, to maximise their personal wellbeing at the expense of the younger generations

Did previous generations not do this as well, or is this unique to the boomers?

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by cyberneticist on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:46AM (#36519144)
No, previous generations tended to preserve the social contract of not fucking over their grandkids so they could go out to eat more and take more vacations in retirement.

Before they were called boomers they were called "generation me". It should hardly be a surprise that this is what generation me would do in old age.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by Gareth321 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:57AM (#36519760)
I don't think so, but democracy is actually pretty new. It wasn't until the 60s in America where one could confidently argue that every man and woman could vote without major impediment. In 1920 women are guaranteed the right to vote by the Nineteenth Amendment. There was also a lot of war happening.

So could previous generations have done the same? Their generation just wasn't large enough. Then along came this crazy baby boom and suddenly there was this all-powerful voting bloc which has shaped the world.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wasimanitoba on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:42AM (#36518711)
Your chart shows home ownership recently peaked at 69% in 2011.

The current 66% is (a) not that big a change and (b) still high compared to historical averages so it's not so much "plummeting" as it is "reverting to the mean".

(which means we'll just continue to uphold the status quo like we always have)

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by voisin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:53AM (#36518784)
Another part of the problem is that those who down own but rent have seen rents increase (in many but perhaps not all of the major cities) to the highest proportion of income in history and often are as high as a mortgage payment. So now there’s no real savings to be had by renting, and no ability to save to get into the housing market later (prices in some markets were increasing on average by tens of thousands of dollars per month through COVID - galloping away from even the most diligently saving renter trying to get to a down payment. So it seems there’s an owner class and a renter class, and both are financially strapped, and it is near impossible to move from renter to owner.

This is a direct result of insufficient supply and skyrocketing values (thanks to interest rates being too low for too long).

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wasimanitoba on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:45AM (#36521074)
To add to my reply, it appears that - rather than "plummeting" since 2011 - homeownership went up even more recently and actually peaked in 2019:

> About two in three Canadians lived in an owner-occupied home in 2022. Since 2017, the home ownership rate in Canada has fluctuated and in 2019, it peaked at approximately 68.6 percent. In 2022, this figure was slightly lower, at 66.5 percent.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/198969/home-ownership-ra...

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ZoomerCretin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:24PM (#36523584)
> *owner-occupied home*

If I'm living at home with mom and dad, and they own their home, I'm technically living in an owner-occupied home, aren't I?

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wasimanitoba on Friday June 30, 2023 @03:34AM (#36531689)
2/3 of Canadians living in a home their family owns is still far from a situation where a critical mass of voters are demanding pro-renter housing policies.

Even those living at home with parents will be benefiting from the status quo when they eventually inherit their parent's property.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by acover on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:53AM (#36516846)
Billboards are your plan? 70% of Canadians are happy with the situation. Even more of those who actually vote.

If this was actually a problem then it would have been solved. It's not that hard to build houses.

Personally I'd like to buy a house and convert it to an unreasonable number of apartments with a common kitchen. If you happen to hookup a kitchen in your apartment how would I know?

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by hackly on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:02AM (#36516903)
That ratio is declining by the day as more and more join the renting class. Olivia Chow’s victory in Toronto is testament to that. She ran on increasing the vacancy tax, making evictions more difficult, building 25k rental homes, etc. No wonder why the old guard like Ford and Tory tried everything to steer people away from her. But she still won. Speaks volumes of the changes in the demographics. It’s no longer 70% that are happy with the housing crisis I can tell you this much.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by acover on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:07AM (#36516937)
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joshlemer on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:12AM (#36516960)
That doesn't really capture it though. Anyone who lives in a home which is occupied by the owner counts in this figure. So if someone in their 20s is unable to afford to live on their own and has to live with their parents, they will count towards this homeowner statistic.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by hackly on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:15AM (#36516982)
You assume all homeowners are happy with the situation. That is definitely not the case. Many looking to upsize or thinking about housing for their kids are not pleased with the rising prices. And this crowd is growing too.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by acover on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:18AM (#36517007)
It's not precise but it's a pretty good bet they prefer current prices turn 2010 prices.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joenot443 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:28AM (#36520809)
25k rental homes over 8 years is a drop in the bucket when we welcomed 145k new Canadians in the first 3mos of 2023 alone.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by brutus1213 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:08AM (#36518889)
I already bought a home (it is a starter home) and it is nice seeing my home price increase but I can never upgrade (well .. I can but it would be financial suicide to). I think some Canadian home owners get that but your point is actually totally valid. The Home Affordability issue just targets renters.

I think the right billboard should cover our shit roads and transit, and our healthcare/ER. That affects everyone (and seniors the most!)

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by throwaway2037 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:44AM (#36517186)
Canada is a huge country. It would be better to mention specific cities with issues. There are many cities in Canada without housing issues.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by m00x on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:26AM (#36517466)
Immigrants usually go to centers that have immigration offices to help them.

Going to Edmunston won't be very useful for them.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by light_hue_1 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:45AM (#36517596)
Given that Edmonton's population is 26% immigrants, that's simply false. The main problem is that these cities are very small, so even though as a percentage they absorb a lot of immigrants, they can't make that much of a dent overall.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by mynegation on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:26AM (#36517837)
I think your parent meant Edmundston, New Brunswick, pop. 16,437.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by arroz on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:27AM (#36519005)
Lol
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by m00x on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:12PM (#36523381)
My man doesn't even know about Edmunston, NB. It's really that bad.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by voisin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:56AM (#36518796)
> There are many cities in Canada without housing issues.

Can you name a few that haven’t seen house prices relative to household income skyrocket over the last 5-10 years?

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joenot443 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:24AM (#36520759)
Sault Ste Marie, Sudbury, Quebec City, and St. Johns immediately come to mind.

https://www.point2homes.com/CA/Home-For-Sale/ON/Sault-Ste-Ma...

$260k for a multifamily home is pretty reasonable, in my books. The eternal issue though, is convincing new Canadians that there exists a life outside of the GTA and Vancouver.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by throwaway2037 on Friday June 30, 2023 @12:28PM (#36537872)
I always heard such good things about Quebec City. Quality of life looks excellent. Thanks for sharing the housing price update. It sounds pretty good. As I recall, there are a bunch of good tech jobs there also due to UniSoft and friends.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by vancouverwill on Friday June 30, 2023 @10:21PM (#36545698)
It sounds fine in theory but leaving Vancouver to go to St John's for affordable housing is not really an option for any one with family here. I may as well go to Thailand for affordable housing, it is more affordable and flights are the same price. People have obligations with family and they want to be close to their friends. It's not like Europe where you can do 60 minutes from a big city and prices fall off a cliff. In bc you have to go four hours drive from Vancouver to find cheapish housing (Hope it's the spot) and that's not a commutable distance. The complete lack of public transport makes it worse but the sheer scale of it is the biggest problem. If I was going to start again there is no way I would choose Vancouver but people get stuck in cities for many reasons but the biggest one is either relationship commitments or where the work is.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by brailsafe on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:02AM (#36518845)
This is the more controversial opinion, so it would be on you to list those cities.

Many places don't necessarily have expensive housing in absolute dollars for someone making top money, but that doesn't mean they don't have housing issues

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by joenot443 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @11:03AM (#36521361)
Sudbury, North Bay, Sault St Marie, Quebec City, St. John's, Cornwall, Timmins... The list goes on.

All are safe, welcoming cities, all are relatively affordable. No they don't have an NHL team, yes they get cold in the winter. This is a cold country!

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by brailsafe on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:24PM (#36524625)
With maybe the exception of Quebec City and St Johns which I'd like to visit, not to disparage those cities, but they are... small, extremely isolated, and yes cold but I think that's the least of the issue, and I say that being from Winnipeg.

The cold is a real issue, but it's an extreme issue if you have the other two qualities, all 3 present in Winnipeg too because it's like 9 hours from any other city over 300k. I remember bussing to school every day, and walking one block would make my face feel like it was on fire, then I'd get home later and it would be dark, nobody really wants to do much except drink because there isn't much else. Sprawl and the same terrible zoning as anywhere else made it so only copy/pasted franchises would go up in the commercial areas, always along a major roadway with giant parking lots. I revisit once or twice a year, and it's deeply upsetting.

I pass through many towns like North Bay on road trips, and I have nothing against them inherently, but I think they're only suitable for the same people who just have no interest in being around many other people and bailed from Toronto as soon as their work went remote (I don't personally care for TO as much as Van). That, or people who just literally need any place to set up shop and support a family, but it's crazy to me that the major cities are essentially saying to a majority of young people who are renting their basement suites and have been for a decade, "It's cute that you want to stay where you've already built your community, but we own this and you get to pay my mortgage"

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by gnopgnip on Thursday June 29, 2023 @02:55AM (#36517256)
>But where will these new people stay?

Housing is relatively affordable outside of Ontario and BC. Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Quebec City, Winnepeg, Halifax, Saskatoon, Regina, and St Johns are all major metro areas where homes are less than half the price of the GTA and Vancouver metro.

The obvious fix for Ontario and BC to make housing more affordable is to allow people to build more where people want to live by relaxing zoning requirements. In 80%+ of Vancouver and 60%+ of Toronto it's literally illegal to build anything besides detached single family homes. Little of the remaining land zoned for more dense development is suitable for development. There are some smaller changes like streamlining permitting, not exempting 100% of capital gains and incentivizing speculation, and a vacancy tax to discourage speculation that would help. The problem is any changes to make housing more affordable are politically unpopular, almost 70% of Canadians are homeowners and in the short term benefit from the status quo. Also younger people are ~20% less likely to vote.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by jbarham on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:07AM (#36517337)
> Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Quebec City, Winnepeg, Halifax, Saskatoon, Regina, and St Johns

Yeah, all of these cities also have long, harsh winters.

FWIW I'm a Canadian who lived in California on work visas for several years and relocated to Australia in 2011, where I'm now a citizen. I've never regretted leaving Canada.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by raverbashing on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:12AM (#36518134)
And Toronto's winter is not harsh?
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by antonvs on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:26AM (#36518226)
Toronto is in what's known as Canada's banana belt. It's all relative.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by voisin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:42AM (#36518713)
I’ve never heard anyone use this phrase. What are you talking about?
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by antonvs on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:57PM (#36557418)
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by JimtheCoder on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:03AM (#36520494)
Canadian here, lived in Toronto for about a decade.

There are many names that Canadians from outside Toronto call Toronto...few repeatable in polite company...but I have never heard this Banana Belt term either.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by antonvs on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:56PM (#36557416)
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by kalupa on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:27AM (#36520805)
Banana belt, what on earth are you taking about? Hogtown sure. Maybe even “the big smoke”, and not because of the current wildfires. But banana belt? First time I’ve heard it
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by antonvs on Saturday July 01, 2023 @09:56PM (#36557414)
Here some examples:

> "Affectionately termed the `banana belt' of Canada, this zone boasts the warmest average annual temperatures, the longest frost-free seasons, and the mildest winters in Ontario." -- https://caroliniancanada.ca/legacy/FactSheets_CCUniqueness.h...

> "The city where I live, Toronto, is situated in what Canadians call the banana belt, because of its relatively mild climate." -- https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/gardeners-have-a-sen...

> "The 'banana belt' or Carolinian Canada is a region in Ontario found south of a line which runs approximately from Grand Bend to Toronto." -- http://erintown.blogspot.com/

> "Although this area is also known as the “banana belt” of Canada, you won't find any bananas growing here!" -- http://onnaturemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2002-spring-c...

> "This part of Ontario is often known as the "Banana Belt", because of our moderate climate, in comparison to the rest of Canada." -- https://www.pinterest.es/pin/621919029764992451/

Multiple English dictionaries describe the term as specifically Canadian, e.g. Collins:

> "a region with a warm climate, esp one in Canada" -- https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/bana...

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by horeszko on Friday June 30, 2023 @03:53PM (#36541203)
Not compared to most places in Canada its not. Toronto I would say is between 2C to -10C on average during the winter, -20C in the extreme. Cities like Regina and Saskatoon for example have winters in the range of -20C to -40C on average, and extremes can reach -55C. Its like comparing Alaska and NYC.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by jszymborski on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:52AM (#36519207)
Bully for you. You do realise a great number of us who live hear do so because we love it, weather and all, right?
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ckdarby on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:59AM (#36519268)
But did you give up your citizenship? Not much to regret when you always have the plan B.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by wesapien on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:11AM (#36517361)
I know a Realtor and they said those cities are already getting pumped.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by voisin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:40AM (#36518706)
> Housing is relatively affordable outside of Ontario and BC. Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Quebec City, Winnepeg, Halifax, Saskatoon, Regina, and St Johns are all major metro areas where homes are less than half the price of the GTA and Vancouver metro.

This is not the right way to think about it. Yes these cities are cheaper than GTA/GVA, but that has always been the case. And this metric only matters if you are earning GTA/GVA incomes and looking for something cheaper than these mega cities to buy in, which arguably only affects a tiny percent of the population.

The right comparison is how these cities’ house prices compare to themselves of 3, 5, 10 years ago versus their average household income over the same time periods.

When you look at that, which is a much more relevant metric of affordability, you will find there is essentially no city in this country that hasn’t been absolutely obliterated on affordability over the last decade.

7-10 years ago it was a GTA/GVA affordability issue. Now it a story of every podunk 2 horse town from coast to coast. Why? Because of interest rates! The BoC, like most central banks, left rates too low for too long and then massively overreacted to COVID.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ZoomerCretin on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:16PM (#36523436)
Why would an immigrant care how much housing prices were in a city 3, 5, or 10 years ago? That has absolutely nothing to do with how affordable it is right now.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by brutus1213 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:03AM (#36518851)
Issue is not just housing. Our health services and infra is crumbling. 401 near Yonge st is jammed nearly 24 hours (yes!!!). We literally have no more space for cars. We have switch to the 407 for as much travel as we can (and it is crazy expensive and silly given how much tax I pay as a techie).

The ERs in GTA are just always clogged. I've had to deal with multiple instances of 10+ hour waits in the ER. When they were not addressed in time, one such incident got worse, and ended up in a 10 day serious hospital stay (love the logic on that one).

Getting an appointment with any sort of specialist is also a gauntlet.

I'm an immigrant and it was surreal hearing the new Toronto mayor talk about how much she accomplished as an immigrant to Canada. It was indeed possible when she and I came to this country. It is a fantasy today. GTA has become a terrible place to live in a very short time period.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by sgt on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:11AM (#36518898)
Immigration is a double edged swords. It's one way to grow an economy rapidly, but you can't really do it without proper 10-20 year ahead planning. Not a real surprise, since most politicians are concerned with short term wins.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by arroz on Thursday June 29, 2023 @07:12AM (#36518905)
Price has also been going up in the cities you called “relatively affordable”

I live in the middle of nowhere and when renewing my annual lease my rent went 10% up

It is expensive for most people who live here

And Calgary prices have shooted up due to people leaving BC and ON. Not as expensive as BC or ON but nevertheless local people are feeling the changes.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by swat535 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:25PM (#36523593)
I live in Montreal and prices for new condos are nearly 1M, rent has been steadily increasing and wages are pretty low.

To make matters worse, enjoy not having any road infrastructure, dealing with construction and traffic, paying the highest tax in country and dealing with an incompetent government who is more concerned about replacing stop signs that say "STOP" with "ARRÊT" instead of focusing on healthcare, education and employment.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks we live in a paradise. Montreal is only "hip" if you are 18 and want to go clubbing at night. The allure of "Jazz Fest" drops off quickly.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Thursday June 29, 2023 @04:34PM (#36526324)
These are tech talents though. Tech offices are in the big cities
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by leshow on Sunday July 02, 2023 @10:38PM (#36568066)
> The obvious fix for Ontario and BC to make housing more affordable is to allow people to build more where people want to live by relaxing zoning requirements.

The market has proven totally unable to solve the housing crisis and your solution is to relax regulation and incentivize builders to make more profits. The price of units and homes is already too high, incentives will just get us more market rate or above housing.

Here's another option: start to decommodify housing by building good, mixed income public housing. Vienna and Singapore have two different models that could work here.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ricardobayes on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:03AM (#36517314)
There are 2k+ houses for sale in Nova Scotia under 200k right now. Canada is more than the GTA area. Actually as I know the same thing happened in the US at the turn of the century. People arriving to the country finding prices high in New York ventured further, settling in Ohio, for example. Ohio has the highest hungarian population out of all states, due to this. People always adapt, and overcome. It's really not up to the "state" to solve middle-class housing issues. It's not the soviet union.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by midoridensha on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:14AM (#36517379)
>It's really not up to the "state" to solve middle-class housing issues. It's not the soviet union.

Yes, it is. The state caused the housing issues because of their Soviet-like zoning laws.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by light_hue_1 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:47AM (#36517612)
In defense of the Soviet Union, these zoning laws don't come from there. They come from the US, as an effort in the early 20th century to keep undesirable people (jews, blacks, chinese, etc.) away from precious whites.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by midoridensha on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:56AM (#36517655)
True, and I didn't mean to imply that Euclidean zoning was invented by the Soviets. Rather, the Soviets, having a planned economy and authoritarian system, planned urban development: they decided how housing would be built, where, and what type. Their choice gave them big apartment blocks, but it was because the State mandated this, not because any developers or private landowners wanted them.

In the US and Canada, it's very similar, though a bit different: the State has decided that only ridiculously inefficient single-family housing is allowed to be built.

Both of them are situations where the State has forced limits on what kind of housing is allowed, but the type of housing is obviously diametrically different. A better system is one where the State sets very few limits on housing, only very practical ones (no 50-story towers next to the airport, for instance), and lets landowners do what they want with their land, within reason.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by leshow on Sunday July 02, 2023 @10:47PM (#36568134)
That is an epic level of reach.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by unmole on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:58AM (#36517661)
The Soviet union mandated single family housing?
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by midoridensha on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:34PM (#36528887)
The Soviet Union mandated certain types of housing, so yes, the situation is nearly the same.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by unmole on Thursday June 29, 2023 @10:47PM (#36529934)
The Soviet Union preferred to build a certain type of housing: Cheap and high density. The situation is almost the exact opposite.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by midoridensha on Friday June 30, 2023 @12:21AM (#36530470)
No, it's not the exact opposite at all. You're being intentionally obtuse or intellectually dishonest. My point is clear.
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by spicymapotofu on Thursday June 29, 2023 @05:51AM (#36518383)
Thr job market, and for that matter the internet quality, in most of those Nova Scotian locations is not going to support anything except the kindest full-remote position. Those houses are for sale at that rate because they were too bad to get swept up in the wave of transplants the province has been seeing basically since the pandemic started.

My family purchased a home in the province in 2007 for less than 100k. We had to repair the foundation and roof of our house multiple times, and the previous owner used seven layers of wallpaper instead of installing insulation. Cheap homes have their own problems, and two pensions was the only reason we could afford to fix it.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by esun on Thursday June 29, 2023 @08:51AM (#36519692)
I'm in New Brunswick, replying to you over gigabit fibre, working full remote and getting paid in USD, so not really sure what you're on about.

Plus there's Starlink if you want to live way out in the sticks.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by miga on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:07AM (#36518498)
Singapore has public housing corporations that build the high-rise housing for this reason.

Given that Canada is more spacious, government expects free market will solve the housing.

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:18AM (#36518566)
>government expects free market will solve the housing

I nearly choked on my milk reading this. When in the recent period has housing ever followed the rules of supply and demand? The government policy makers, nimbys and banks are constantly doing everything possible to prevent the bubble from popping and to limit supply to ensure thier nest eggs keep appreciating regardless.

If housing actually had liberated free market, without government or nimby interference, we wouldn't have a housing crisis.

Same in Europe. Nobody wants the unsustainable housing bubble to pop, because everyone , from the voters to policy makers, are heavily invested into it with the idea that it must always go up no matter what. We've basically chosen going full steam ahead towards the iceberg because "line must go up".

Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by kderbyma on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:08PM (#36525270)
Canadian government is corrupt and each policy is designed to devalue our economy and make us dependent on foreign control. it's hollow out strategy
Re:Canada announces open work-permit for tech workers and di... by kazinator on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:10PM (#36538576)
> But where will these new people stay?

In better accommodations than the "berry picking talent", "retail talent", "warehouse talent" or "trucking talent" that was fashionable to bring in in previous years.