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Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by mjfl on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:33PM (#36366640)
2 trillion tons = 1/3 of 1 billionth of the mass of the earth. the distance from the ground to the surface is around 5 millionths of the radius of earth (like 100ft)

So you're talking about a change in angular momentum that is on the order of 10^(-20) times the angular momentum of earth (mr^2 \omega).

A change in the pole of earths rotation by 31 inches (10^(-7) times the radius of earch) corresponds to a change in angular momentum on the order of 10^(-14). So we seem to be off by 7 orders of magnitude.

I call bullshit.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by hughesjj on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:49PM (#36366740)
Technically speaking I change the tilt of the earth every time I take a piss
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by treeman79 on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:42PM (#36367039)
/s Naturally the only proper response is to raise taxes to save the planet from your piss. 20 trillion should cover it.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by sufficer on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:01PM (#36366812)
And everything I jump
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by paulddraper on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:42PM (#36367042)
I jump while I piss to offset the effect.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by voisin on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:23AM (#36367265)
There’s a Yo Mama’s So Fat joke in here somewhere.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by comfrey on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:03AM (#36367465)
Yo Yo Ma is pretty skinny

and hn is more like reddit than it used to be

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by twothamendment on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:14AM (#36367516)
Are you suggesting that enough redditors moved to HN to change the tilt?
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by sslayer on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:40AM (#36367619)
Every breath you take

And every move you make

Every bond you break

Every step you take

I'll be changing you

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by the_only_law on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:54AM (#36367676)
Saying that is an registered thoughtcrime here.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by aio2 on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:50PM (#36366745)
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by shwaj on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:55PM (#36366771)
This sounds truthy to me. Can anyone confirm, and also weigh in on whether uneven distribution of the moved mass might account for any of the missing orders of magnitude?
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by londons_explore on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:49AM (#36367652)
Uneven distribution is the entire effect.

Groundwater is mostly under ground... And the center of mass of all the surface crust is hundreds of kilometres from the center of mass of all the world's oceans.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by dclowd9901 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:52AM (#36367403)
Even from a “sniff test” perspective, this seems highly suspicious.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by donw on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:59AM (#36367696)
Totally. Prima facie bullshit. Problem is that the "I F@#$king Love Science" crowd doesn't actually know how anything about science or math, so they'll buy pretty much anything backed up by even low-quality technobabble.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by _a_a_a_ on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:07AM (#36368557)
I hope you have evidence of that. I've never seen it. However, I would say the "I love science" group necessarily has a better grip on it than the vaccine-refusing, conspiracy-soaked science-rejecters--on-principal.

I'm curious as to which side of the bridge you stand on, and your science/mathematics background

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by woooooo on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:23AM (#36369965)
You're not wrong but polarizing everything into two culture war "sides" isn't exactly scientific either.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by empyrrhicist on Saturday June 17, 2023 @08:09AM (#36369531)
- water is heavy

- pumped water gets used and flows to the oceans, far away

- we have pumped a lot of water (look up how much some places have subsided due to groundwater depletion).

- the earth's rotation is something we've worked out how to measure very, very precisely

It sounds completely plausible to me.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by zaroth on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:00AM (#36367447)
The sea level rise number sounds about right tho.

~8 trillion tons to raise the level an inch based on the simple math of surface area of a 24,000 mile diameter sphere, times 2/3rds water, as seen here:

https://www.answers.com/earth-science/What_Amount_of_water_r...

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by onlyrealcuzzo on Saturday June 17, 2023 @02:08AM (#36367741)
Won't it take no tons to raise an inch if the water gets warmer?
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by _a_a_a_ on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:02AM (#36368525)
yes
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by wcoenen on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:12AM (#36367506)
> the distance from the ground to the surface is around 5 millionths

The water from aquifers is not just lifted a short distance up to the surface. It is used, ends up in rivers, and spreads around the world's oceans. And the places where we are pumping groundwater are not uniformly distributed around the Earth. We are essentially moving mass to the Pacific.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by adrian_b on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:07AM (#36368012)
Your computation is very wrong, as explained in the actual research paper and in another comment here. The water is not moved only from under the ground to the surface and the effect on the axis is not due to raising, but mainly to horizontal movement.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by mjfl on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:34AM (#36368681)
post calculation.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by jychang on Saturday June 17, 2023 @06:27AM (#36368904)
Changes in terrestrial water (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0001) (e.g., Figure 2a) and oceanic (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0002) (Figure 2b) mass loads were converted to spherical harmonic (SH) coefficients of the geoid: urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0003 (1) where urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0004 is the Earth radius times water density, urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0005 are latitude and longitude, urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0006 are normalized associated Legendre polynomials and urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0007 are load Love numbers. Using the combined mass fields, urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0008 PM excitations (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0009, urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0010) were computed from the degree 2 (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0011) order 1 (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0012) SH coefficients via (Chao, 1985; Seo et al., 2021): urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0013 (2) urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0014 in which M is the Earth mass, and C and A are Earth principal moments of inertia. urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0015 and urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0016 from Equation 2 include effects of rotational feedback. We then estimated monthly (urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0017, urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0018) changes from groundwater (storage on land and associated sea level change) plus the other sources (AIS, GrIS, glaciers, dams and soil moisture). urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0019 and urn:x-wiley:00948276:media:grl65897:grl65897-math-0020 are mostly determined by terrestrial storage changes with minor contributions from corresponding sea level rise due to relatively uniform distribution of ocean mass as shown in Figure 2b.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by bhickey on Saturday June 17, 2023 @06:29AM (#36368911)
The calculations are in section 2, beneath Figure 2 in the HTML version of the paper.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by Reason077 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @06:14AM (#36368852)
Even 2 trillion tonnes sounds like a very small amount of water compared to what must be getting redistributed by climate change? The Antarctic ice sheet alone weighs around 25,000 trillion tonnes. So even just melting 0.1% of it would move vastly more water into the oceans than we've ever pumped from groundwater!
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by YLYvYkHeB2NRNT on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:11AM (#36369901)
The immediate thing that popped into my head is the Earth is a closed system. BS I concur.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by paxys on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:20AM (#36369950)
Scientists and researchers collect two decades worth of data and publish peer reviewed papers.

Genius HNer looks as the title, spouts some factually incorrect data to "debunk" it and gets upvoted to the top.

Sadly I'm not just describing this instance but internet discource in general. Critical thinking and analysis is dead in the age of "gotcha" hot takes.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by veave on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:37AM (#36370050)
Appeal to authority.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by mistercow on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:47AM (#36370119)
An appeal to authority would be “Experts disagreeing with you proves you wrong.” That’s not what they’re saying.

They’re taking as read that the top level comment is wrong (as explained by a number of other comments), and making an observation about the circumstances surrounding the incorrect comment, as well as the theme it represents in the broader discourse.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by MiguelX413 on Sunday June 18, 2023 @12:46AM (#36377400)
That's not what an appeal to authority is.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by refibrillator on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:15AM (#36370342)
This seems to happen a lot here lately, particularly on earth and space science related topics. After you read the comments on a paper in your field, it becomes depressingly obvious that a lot of the most upvoted commentary is armchair skeptics doing back of the napkin math that sounds good but falls apart upon closer inspection. Gell-mann amnesia effect, etc.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by x86x87 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @01:28PM (#36372306)
Something else is happening in sone cases. You have research that tells you something, the press picks it up/exaggerates it to the point that it's no longer connected to the real thing + now we are all talking whatifs and have opinions without reading the initial claims.

In cases like this it's more than fair to call bullshit.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by zzzzzzzza on Saturday June 17, 2023 @03:13PM (#36373493)
ironically this comment is annoying and pointless cynicism and meta commentary while the original comment is interesting, although apparently wrong - your response should be deadlast but unfortunately I see it before the other comments explaining where in the paper to find why this reasoning is wrong...
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by mjfl on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:42PM (#36374365)
for the record, nothing in the paper makes me feel better about the issue I raised.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by dang on Monday June 19, 2023 @05:04PM (#36396447)
Please make your substantive points without snark or swipes. Otherwise it just makes the thread even worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by AbrahamParangi on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:41AM (#36370078)
Yeah I don’t know that this even makes sense at a glance. How much mass do we expect just moves around by natural processes? Should we even expect to be able to detect an effect of this magnitude (as in, distinguish it from noise)? I do not think so:

- Based on a cursory search, a large iceberg may weigh in at ~1 trillion tons. The calving process moves mass hundreds of kilometers away from Antarctica. This should be an effect of similar magnitude!

- The water cycle moves ~500 trillion tons of water each year. This water is moved hundreds of kilometers and isn’t evenly distributed over the course of a year. We should expect the impact of seasonal fluctuations in water distribution to thus have a comparatively much larger impact on the earth’s rotation.

I don’t think these numbers add up. I think we’re reading this story because it feeds into a certain kind of “we are hurting Mother Earth” mindset.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by caymanjim on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:00AM (#36370224)
The largest iceberg ever measured, B-15, had a mass of about three billion tons. Still enormous, but not trillions, which sounded unbelievable enough to prompt me to look.
Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by AbrahamParangi on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:20AM (#36370386)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceberg_A-68

A-68 was part of Larsen C, a section of the Larsen Ice Shelf. Scientists found the crack beginning to form in November 2016. Scientists assess that A-68 "didn't just break through in one clean shot, [but] it formed a lace-network of cracks first."[5] The resulting iceberg was around 175 km long and 50 km wide, 5,800 km² in area, 200 m thick and weighed an estimated one trillion tonnes.[8][5]

I’m not sure if Wikipedia is right here however because the linked sources have changed to remove mentions of mass.

That said we should be able to do a pretty dumb calculation. 1 km3 of water weighs ~1 gt.

5800 km2 x 0.2 km = 1160 km3

1160 km3 of ice x 0.9 (density of ice compared to water) x 1 gt / 1 km3 leaves us with a mass of about 1044 gt or around 1 trillion tons.

Edit: also, I am not able to find an original source for the mass of B-15 being in the few billions range

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by rrobukef on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:30PM (#36374247)
The calving process results in ice already floating in water moving. Archimedes' law means the effect is very limited ~ the height the ice sticks above the surface and the little change in density.

More importantly, the article mentions removing annual effects on Polar Motion. They are averaging - somehow - to look at permanent changes. The annual effects may be an order of magnitude greater, it is not relevant.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by rrobukef on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:54PM (#36374484)
So we want to calculate the change in momentum caused by moving water from just under the surface to the surface.

Assume earth is a perfect sphere, let m be the mass of earth and r be the radius of earth. Let rdm be the relative mass of the water moved = 3e-8, let rdr be the relative distance of the water moved = 5e-6.

The change in momentum is rdm.m.(1+rdr)².r² - rdm.m.1².r² which is 2.rdm.rdr.m.r²= 3e-14mr². Looks about right for the change of axis you wanted.

There's other counter arguments but at least the oom analysis fits.

Re:Humans Have Pumped Enough Groundwater to Change the Tilt ... by thunkshift1 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:56PM (#36377175)
Very nice einstein..now write a paper and get it reviewed by scientists