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Re:Times New Bastard by fsckboy on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:10PM (#36088959)
I'm not sure if the serif-icity is the jarring part, I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within).

I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl.

Re:Times New Bastard by Blahah on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:17PM (#36089039)
> I think it's the different point size (or whatever that word is for the horizontal height lines that fonts live within).

Agreed! The x-height [0] (among other things) differs jarringly between the serif and sans fonts used.

0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height#:~:text=In%20typogr....

Re:Times New Bastard by augustk on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:01PM (#36089458)
I wish you could specify the x-height of a font in CSS. If you mix serif and sans serif you want them to look like they have the same size. It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected to have the same x-height.
Re:Times New Bastard by JusticeJuice on Friday May 26, 2023 @06:18PM (#36090165)
There's a lot of variable typefaces that let you set the x-height, which can be controlled via CSS.
Re:Times New Bastard by glasshug on Friday May 26, 2023 @07:08PM (#36090502)
Re:Times New Bastard by account42 on Wednesday May 31, 2023 @06:50AM (#36136786)
> It would have been nice if the default browser fonts were selected

Yes.

Re:Times New Bastard by mywittyname on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:20PM (#36089067)
People really seem to hate "handwritten" fonts. Comic Sans is the mainstream example, but there are a lot of other ones.

As others said, stylistic alternatives definitely exist in most font packages, especially commercial ones used with Adobe products. So the fact that they are not widely used outside of graphic design probably goes back to people generally hate fonts that look handwritten for anything besides wedding invitations.

Re:Times New Bastard by KerrAvon on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:33PM (#36089189)
I see a lot of the "why do people hate Comic Sans" articles on the web think it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations, but this seems like post-hoc rationalization. It's the Comic Sans look specifically that people intensely dislike, not "handwritten" fonts in general.

The original and better case against Comic Sans was that there were much better handwritten, comic-text-style fonts and that Comic Sans was a particularly bad instance of one.

Just ask Dave Gibbons:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/aug/12/dave-gibb...

>"It's just a shame they couldn't have used just the original font, because it's a real mess. I think it's a particularly ugly letter form," he says. "The other thing that really bugs me that they've used an upper case I with bars on it: it looks completely wrong to the comic eye. And when you see store fronts done in it, it's horrible."

Re:Times New Bastard by justsomehnguy on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:54PM (#36089395)
> it's just because it's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations

It's a handwritten, casual font used in inappropriate situations /and the only available for anything 'fancy' on the Average Computer used by Average Joe/.

Re:Times New Bastard by fsckboy on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:54PM (#36089398)
stylistically, my personal taste is that Comic Sans is exactly the right font to use for serious warning signs like in a kitchen, such as "DON'T TOUCH, handle gets HOT" or something. Anything official looking I have a tendency to ignore as boilerplate, but comic sans seems like a personal friendly message directed at me

if any of the objection is to the precise letter drawings, ok fine, give me a different one, but the overall concept, I'm Comic Sans all the way.

Re:Times New Bastard by derefr on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:17PM (#36089620)
If you want jarring so that you don’t ignore it, use Impact or Copperplate.
Re:Times New Bastard by fsckboy on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:54PM (#36089950)
I completely disagree, though, you're not getting my point. There is a type of "standard" warning that I routinely ignore, the "don't cut yourself with the tablesaw" warnings. Or "knife is sharp". Like, yeah, that's why I'm using the knife.

A warning I won't ignore is one written by a friend about something unusual or unexpected. "The supposedly insulated handle on this pot will melt your fingers off"

I just think that comic sans draws my eye in, in a way that Copperplate instructions from HR do not. Don't tell HR, or they'll start using Comic Sans.

Re:Times New Bastard by derefr on Friday May 26, 2023 @07:19PM (#36090561)
Apologies, I mixed up the font I had meant. I meant to refer to things like https://www.fontspace.com/hardsign-font-f46378, or https://www.fontspace.com/the-ranch-font-f88750, or the various Fraktur fonts that you mostly see in tattoo-art these days. These fonts are not normally used on warning signs. Unless you consider old-west "WANTED" posters to be warning signs.

These are fonts that are not just eye-catching, but actively painful to look at for how striking they are, to the point that they're even maybe a bit hard to read (but you still end up reading them, because it's hard to look away.) These are fonts that scream at you — fonts HR would never dare to use, even knowing they "work", because it'd be unprofessional to be that attention-grabbing. It'd be the typographic equivalent of blowing an airhorn in a small room in order to interrupt someone.

Or you can go the other way, and just put an actual picture of the grim reaper on your sign: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/58b3vj/stop_prevent_y... .

(Though actually, oddly enough, something about that typography makes me feel threatened even without the image. I think that particular tight leading with all-caps lettering using a high-weight sans-serif font, puts me in mind of specific public civic-engineering uses of typography to warn people away from high-voltage power substations, large AM radio transmitters, hydro-dam spillways, etc. It's a subtle thing, but it's enough to make it really not look like your standard HR print-out. See also: the old shield of the US Department of Civil Defense — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense_in_the_United_St.... Seeing that on something is just unsettling — for purely typographic reasons!)

Re:Times New Bastard by kyle-rb on Friday May 26, 2023 @06:15PM (#36090142)
I'm imagining huge Comic Sans lettering: "This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here."
Re:Times New Bastard by tomjakubowski on Friday May 26, 2023 @07:17PM (#36090553)
100%. A cartoon with the warning helps too.
Re:Times New Bastard by brazzledazzle on Friday May 26, 2023 @08:06PM (#36090877)
My favorite comic sans note taped to an office fridge ended with “sorry for the incontinence” and once I had a good chuckle I read the part above it that I had previously ignored.
Re:Times New Bastard by boredhedgehog on Saturday May 27, 2023 @05:13AM (#36093210)
> like a personal friendly message directed at me

Yes, like a clown talking to you while honking his nose. Amusing and ignorable.

Re:Times New Bastard by RobotToaster on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:02PM (#36089465)
There's nothing wrong with comic sans, if you're making a comic

You don't use it for a business letter for the same reason you don't use Times New Roman, Garamond, Baskerville, &c, for a comic.

Re:Times New Bastard by anonymouskimmer on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:32PM (#36089752)
As GP indicated, the important thing is that Comic Sans doesn't appear handwritten because it lacks variation. Just like good Calligraphy doesn't appear handwritten. In genuine (non-Calligraphic) handwriting there will be minor variations in each letter (say, the letter "s"), even though in general all instances of the letter will be more similar to each other than the same letter in someone else's handwriting.
Re:Times New Bastard by User23 on Friday May 26, 2023 @08:28PM (#36090981)
Brush Script[1] is the ur-classic. Adobe used to give it away so it showed up literally everywhere When desktop publishing was first taking off.

[1] https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/brush-script

Re:Times New Bastard by seba_dos1 on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:14PM (#36089012)
> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters

Not sure what you're talking about; it did and there are many fonts that use it.

Re:Times New Bastard by frostburg on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:13PM (#36088993)
Many of the more complete font families feature stylistic alternatives for certain letters. Usually typesetting software has you manually pick them or select sets, but it could be done as you say.
Re:Times New Bastard by Jeff_Brown on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:18PM (#36089051)
Yeah, if they were the same size I'm not sure I would even notice.
Re:Times New Bastard by gwern on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:49PM (#36089910)
You'd notice in the original screenshot/example linked: https://bouquetoftwelve.tumblr.com/post/186272155342/ommanyt...
Re:Times New Bastard by seba_dos1 on Friday May 26, 2023 @06:06PM (#36090073)
That screenshot has the exact same problem.
Re:Times New Bastard by gwern on Friday May 26, 2023 @11:16PM (#36091774)
No, it doesn't. Compare the heights of the 'ri' pairs, for example. In the Github repo, the difference is ginormous, the top of the 'r' is almost past the dot. In the original Tumblr mockup, the top doesn't even reach the same height as the dot. It's still too big to be subtle, but it's better.
Re:Times New Bastard by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:37PM (#36089800)
> I'm curious why type/font technology hasn't developed for variation in letters, where a handwriting or printing typeface (or "Ransom" :) could vary the letter "a" so all the "a"'s don't look alike, the same as happens irl.

Why would you want that? It seems like it would be harder to read for no benefit.

Re:Times New Bastard by true_religion on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:44PM (#36089872)
Why would you want it? For the same reason as a font like Times New Bastard. For fun. For creative depression. For no good reason at all.
Re:Times New Bastard by wishfish on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:47PM (#36089891)
For a handwriting font, it would be fun to have small variations on letters. Just to make it look like something actually handwritten.
Re:Times New Bastard by esquivalience on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:58PM (#36089993)
I believe it exists and here is a list of reasons for it: https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/introducing_type/introduc...
Re:Times New Bastard by acqq on Saturday May 27, 2023 @05:51PM (#36098713)
Re:Times New Bastard by elevation on Friday May 26, 2023 @06:01PM (#36090018)
You might want it for emulating handwriting by choosing glyphs from a series of fonts so that tokens like "IEEE" or "error" aren't uncanny giveaways of the computer-rendering.
Re:Times New Bastard by fsckboy on Friday May 26, 2023 @06:33PM (#36090268)
>Why would you want that?

call me OCD but when I look at stuff written in script my eyes check to see if all the a's are the same, all the b's are the same, all the... and then what I see is manufactured uniformity, a communique from The Machine.

it wouldn't take much variation (say, three different a's) to make me feel a sense of relief that it's warmer and cuddlier

Re:Times New Bastard by huhtenberg on Friday May 26, 2023 @05:57PM (#36089976)
It would've been a neater prank if they'd actually chopped off serifs from the original letters and used those for the sans glyphes.
Re:Times New Bastard by ryanjshaw on Saturday May 27, 2023 @12:17AM (#36092034)
It gives me flashbacks of bad OCR jobs and trying to copy sensible text out of the resultant messy PDF.