Non AMP link: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/18/amazon-wr...

I could not find any evidence of Amazon literally killing an employee in that article. What I did find was this:

> claims that Amazon failed to warn employees of dangerous weather or provide safe shelter before a tornado slammed the Edwardsville facility

Such behaviour certainly warrants a lawsuit, and I hope Amazon gets into deep trouble for that, but what killed that employee was a tornado.

Now the meaning of "kill" would probably include using force to have an employee being hit by that tornado, but the article doesn't seem to mention anything like that either. The details are left out, so what most likely happened is that the employee was threatened with being fired (explicitly, implied, or at a different time) if they don't continue to work, so they did, and then got hit by a tornado.

So to clear this up: Are we actually talking about a case of manslaughter happening at Amazon, or is this a weird way of pointing out their abysmal workplace safety?

Amazon built the warehouse. Amazon hired the people and ordered them to work in that warehouse. Amazon failed to warn employees of dangerous weather or provide safe shelter before a tornado slammed the Edwardsville facility on 10 December. McEwen and five others were killed in the disaster.

If a mining company doesn't warn their miners of an earthquake, and it kills their workers, it's absolutely the mining company's fault. So how can this be anyone else's fault, but Amazon's?

> So to clear this up: Are we actually talking about a case of manslaughter happening at Amazon, or is this a weird way of pointing out their abysmal workplace safety?

Is there really a difference? The definition of manslaughter depends on the juridistiction, but I think this is clearly a case gross negligence manslaughter, by Amazon.

> So how can this be anyone else's fault, but Amazon's?

Why are we even discussing this? I never asked whose fault it is, and actually asserted from the beginning that I think it is Amazon's fault. Such working conditions should not even be allowed by law.

What I did ask for is evidence that "Amazon literally killed their employee", which nobody has provided yet, and probably never will, because it is becoming very clear that it never happened, and that this is just a case of mis-using the word "literally" for dramatic effect.

The word "literally" has long meant both "literally" and "figuratively" to the point that the latter meaning is in some dictionaries at this point, and is reasonably used in this context to imply indirect responsibility. If the person above literally meant literally in its original meaning, then I agree it was misused for dramatic effect. if the person above meant to use it in the sense of figuratively, then it was merely ambiguously written.

I prefer to promote the term "veritable" as well as "virtually" which are good actual substitutes for what someone means when they mix up "literally".

See also, nerds favorite superhero: https://youtu.be/9jh4Mpgbi4A

A trolley is hurtling down a track towards your employees, who are working on the tracks at your direction. You have time to warn them but do nothing. An employee gets hit and dies. Did you "kill" them?

We're descending into semantics. But I think many justice systems would classify the above as some type of homicide.

It seems that the legal term is corporate manslaughter, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_manslaughter

Nowadays "literally" is often used as "figuratively" in a somewhat ironic way to emphasize a point. In this case, the point being that Amazon's actions directly led to the deaths of workers.

Amazon is not a person, and cannot kill someone by raising its hand and stabbing them in the spleen. So, what evidence exactly are you asking for?

Are you implying that this word game ("Ha! Amazon didn't literally kill him by a physical attack!") somehow changes anything in terms of blame? Or are you just arguing semantics for the fuck of it?

> this is just a case of mis-using the word "literally" for dramatic effect

No, this is you not understanding that words have different meanings in different contexts. Amazon has literally killed them, as in, performed a manslaughter. The fact that it is not a person only changes the mechanism - instead of stabbing them, they performed gross negligence. Why you consider that a "literal manslaughter" must have an element of physical assault is beyond me, but in the end, it's just your own definition of the word.

>Amazon is not a person, and cannot kill someone by raising its hand and stabbing them in the spleen. So, what evidence exactly are you asking for?

From a legal point of view, yes Amazon is a person, and that’s the ground on which it can be sued, unlike "Nature" that generated the tornado — though lately things started to move a bit on that side all around the world.[2,3,4,6,7,8,9]

But even that is missing the forest for the tree I think. It seems to me that the point raised by moring is more like can these words be honestly stated as accurate as when The Mail & Guardian titles "The Nigerian government is killing its citizens — again[1]". Although it can be argued that this geopolitical entity is a pure human fiction, there are actual humans that are willingly planning to kill other people.

As awful as the resulting situation might be, I doubt that within Amazon case they were plans and orders to deliberately kill annoying employees. It doesn’t mean Amazon behavior is acceptable, nor is the fact that some government have let Amazon build this situation.

[1] https://mg.co.za/africa/2020-10-21-the-nigerian-government-i...

[2] https://theselfless.org/mother-nature-a-legal-person/

[3] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/transnational-enviro...

[4] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/nature-legal-personho...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_nature_in_Ecuador

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_nature#Related_initi...

[7] https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31102022/celebrating-vict...

[8] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-46523-0_...

[9] https://asiapacific.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publicati...

> It seems to me that the point raised by moring is more like (...)

Yes, that was what I meant. It was admittedly fueled by the confusion when I started from "did I miss some major news", as well as a lack of knowledge of what "literally" means, as indicated by the other responses.

Sorry for the attitude, for what it's worth. I could've phrased things a little less aggressive.

Had a rough couple of weeks and it seems it's getting the best of me.

> I doubt that within Amazon case they were plans and orders to deliberately kill annoying employees.

I don't see anyone here say Amazon murdered (deliberately killed) people, but arguing they killed people. Kill can mean murder, which implies intent/doing so deliberately, but can also mean manslaughter, which does not require it to be deliberate.

Sorry as I’m not an English native, that level of languages nuances might be above what I will ever master.

To my mind, "kill" wasn’t something you might inadvertedly do, except maybe for bugs and thus small entities.

Anyway, once again, in no way I mean to play Amazon attorney here.

>I never asked whose fault it is, and actually asserted from the beginning that I think it is Amazon's fault

followed by

>What I did ask for is evidence that "Amazon literally killed their employee"

employees died, you agreed it was Amazon's fault, if it is Amazon's fault that an employee died then Amazon literally killed that employee. Notice it was never said Amazon is legally culpable for the deaths of employees which has a different meaning in English than 'literally killed'.

>this is just a case of mis-using the word "literally" for dramatic effect.

I must admit I find the grammatical high-horseplay evinced by the last bit rather weird, for the reasons I have outlined.

I think you're taking the word "literally" too literally.

Wait a minute, failure to warn of an impending earthquake constitutes corporate liability?

Warn of an EARTHQUAKE?

Am I reading your words right? Are you accusing hypothetical companies of negligence because they fail to do the impossible?

Bad analogy: tornadoes are predictable. Try to stick with reality.

True, it's not a perfect analogy, I missed the unpredictability factor.

But you understood what I was trying to say, so for what it's worth, it served it's purpose.

It doesn't seem clear how a company can have liability to have 'safe shelter' from tornados in a warehouse.

Can you explain?

Sure, I'll simplify it:

1. company pays workers to work in warehouse

2. tornado warnings happen

3. company doesn't warn workers in warehouse

4. warehouse in a country where tornadoes happen often doesn't have a tornado shelter

5. tornado kills workers

I hope this makes it more clear! Feel free to ask if things are still confusing.

Can you cite the law that says or implies this must be provided for tornado prone areas?

As far as I'm aware in the U.S. and Canada it's legally considered an act of god, a natural disaster, etc...

No, I cannot.

I am not a lawyer, I don't consider this particular question (whether it's legal to kill your workers or not) relevant to the question of whether they're responsible for their death (they are), and I don't consider lawmakers as the ultimate authority of ethics.

> The definition of manslaughter depends on the juridistiction, but I think this is clearly a case gross negligence manslaughter, by Amazon.

This does not seem to square with your prior comment.

By the quote you posted, I was trying to imply that I'm speaking outside of any particular framework of law, but rather of ethics. Perhaps I shouldn't have chosen the term used in law, but I didn't know what other term to choose.

Law comes from ethics, anyway. It's an imperfect reflection of the ideal of justice, and in this case, it is my personal opinion that what Amazon did should be considered gross negligence manslaughter.

In any case, they literally killed people.

To be frank, it's difficult to believe 'gross negligence manslaughter' is the default term you normally use in lieu of other choices. Or that you were unable to think of other terms.

> I could not find any evidence of Amazon literally killing an employee in that article.

Negligence causing death is a thing.

Why was this downvoted? Amazon "literally killing their employees" was news to me too and a credible source would have been nice.

See sibling comment: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/18/amazon-wr...

There was a suicide attempt that sparked a lot of discussion about Amazon and the way they do PIPs back in 2016:

https://www.geekwire.com/2016/report-amazon-employee-jumps-o...

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-share-though...

It prompted a lot of discussions in my workplace cafeteria and I recall it was discussed at length on Blind. The consensus I saw at the time was that Amazon has a really rough culture and something needed to change.

I have not worked at Amazon, so I cannot speak directly to any of this, though.

Workplace conditions at Amazon (both tech and non-tech) are quite awful. There are countless reports of workplace bullying, harassment, and retaliation[1][2][3][4]. Regarding PIP/Focus, managers will make things up and falsely report status to HR. It's an incredibly toxic experience. Amazon also uses its tremendous power to do things like execute unlawful surveillance on current and former employees, and falsely accuse them of crimes[5]. Can you imagine trying to raise kids while Amazon is trying to take everything you own, without legal cause? Unreal this is allowed to happen.

Regarding "death," warehouse workers are seriously injured twice as much as workers in other warehouses[6]. Amazon received numerous citations from OSHA last year for reasons including underreporting and mis-classifying incidents involving serious injuries and illness, as well as withholding information to OSHA. It's gotten bad enough even shareholders are pushing for change[7].

[1]https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/they-think-they... [2]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-nlrb-idINKBN28... [3]https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/23/22590134/amazon-harassmen... [4]https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2021/05/19/amazon-fi... [5]https://www.seattletimes.com/business/after-3-years-seattles... [6]https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/amazon-warehouse-worke... [7]https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/a-shareholder-revolt...

> It prompted a lot of discussions in my workplace cafeteria and I recall it was discussed at length on Blind. The consensus I saw at the time was that Amazon has a really rough culture and something needed to change.

There have been multiple reports in the Seattle Times about how brutal of a place to work for. It's been a while but I recall a headline about how often an employee broke down and cried at their desk.

Open secret basically at this point.