This is a problem I have with the right to repair movement--what happens to the replaced part? This is hard to police within regulated businesses, but just look at the landfills and scrapyards from the times when more items were more easily user serviceable; it's not pretty.

I'm all for enforcing user serviceability, however it has the potential to be a backwards step for the environment if stern statutes are not put in place and actively policed, with the onus being on the party performing the replacement.

When buying a lead-acid battery or a remanufactured car part, there's often a core charge that is rebated when you return the old part. The last battery I purchased it was $22 (on a $170 battery). Now, I would've returned the old battery anyway because it's easy, convenient, and what the heck else would I do with it, but $22 was also a pretty decent incentive.

So I'd think you just need to get the incentives right: make it easy and convenient to return and provide a financial reason to do so.

On the other hand, last year I replaced all the smoke alarms in my home. It is essentially impossible to recycle the old alarms. Here's what my town says:

"Only a single household smoke alarm/detector will be accepted with your trash for garbage collection. If you have more than one, they must be disposed using one of these listed options; https://deq.nc.gov/conservation/recycling/general-recycling-... or, check manufacturer for take-back program."

Here's what my county says (in the "unacceptable items" section):

"Smoke detectors contain trace amounts of radioactive material. The recommendation is for consumers to return the smoke detectors to the manufacturers or contact NC Radiation Protection at 919-814-2250."

Here's what my state says:

"The Solid Waste Section recommends that it is safe for a single household fire/smoke detector to be disposed of in a lined municipal solid waste landfill."

No manufacturer has a take-bake program. The county isn't on the same page with the town and the state. So in the trash they went, one per week. Took 3 months to get rid of them all.

Next time buy optical smoke alarms, they are better [1] and don't contain radioactive materials.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DuAeaIcAXtg&t=1196s&pp=ygUWc21...

I went with three First Alert SC7010B, one per floor, which are photo electric and detect both smoke and CO. For the rest of the alarms I used First Alert 9120B which are ionizing. I figure I covered all my bases that way. I think they have a life span of a decade so it'll be a while before I need to replace them again.

How can it possibly be worse to need to manage a replaced part vs a complete replaced device?

Not that difficult to imagine:

- Users generally replace a device less often than replace a part.

- Users usually throw away a part, but not a device. As a matter of fact resales value of Apple devices are higher than for other makers.

- Apple have the mean to recycle trade-in devices and not landfill them. Users may not.

- Devices with replaceable parts may have shorter lifecycle than the ones without, since they are more brittle and complex.

About the only argument for replaceable part is user freedom to fix their devices.

That's fair. I'm assuming the majority case is simply: device breaks, can't be fixed easily, gets thrown away. I think we'd need some actual data to have a meaningful discussion about it.

That's a reasonable assumption. Anecdotally, on my local high street, there are at least 5 places--one official Apple service centre (not an Apple Store)--that offer battery and screen replacement for all mobile devices and tablets. At least 3 have been there for more than 5 years, including the official Apple one. There must be some demand for them all to survive.

My gut says it's higher since I would expect people who care about replacing batteries also care about recycling the old ones. Why do you think it's way lower?

The example I’m thinking of is when I sat next to someone in an airport who had just bought some garbage-tier “Samsung compatible” replacement battery from the duty free shop, for his garbage-tier phone. He popped in the new battery and tossed the old one in the trash.

Meanwhile, I know loads of people who have traded in, or simply handed in, their old iPhones in an Apple Store. I can’t imagine anyone casually tossing an old iPhone in the trash the way my feckless bench-neighbour did.

> ...for his garbage-tier phone.

As someone with an arguably garbage-tier phone, sans replaceable battery, I don't think anyone would let me trade it in for a new one or even some sort of a discount, because there isn't a name like Apple behind it, nor the support network.

My previous phone that had replaceable batteries has two in total that I occasionally charge, so it can act as a temporary backup if anything happens to my current phone.

At least once those are used up and no longer hold any sort of a charge, I'll be able to dispose of them in the supermarket battery collection point or something like that. I'm not sure whether I'd want to cram my current phone in there with its memory chips intact.

I guess there are a lot of factors to consider, whether people can afford a certain device or whether they care about disposing of certain types of items responsibly being some of them. Some of this probably varies based on the region of the world as well.

I don't even know where I would be able to properly dispose of/recycle a Li-ion battery. City recycling only takes non-rechargeable batteries, and the drop box at the electronics store only takes whole devices with internal batteries (like shavers)

In general any big box store that sells devices containing lion/lipo batteries will also have a recycling point for them. I can't remember if there is an actual law governing that, but I assume it isn't out of the goodness of the corporations hearts.

Stores like Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Wegmans, Target, etc all have boxes you can drop bare lithium battery cells into. Usually right at the front of the store tucked off to the side somewhere. They usually have bags provided at the box to put the cells into. I deal with a lot of lipo batteries & don't want to be responsible for a fire, so I usually electrical tape the +/- terminals before dropping off as well.

I don't live in the US so it may be different but the big box stores near me all have signs on their dropboxes saying you can throw devices with internal batteries but not loose batteries

Wrap it in tape with an LED attached. Now it’s a device with internal battery, problem solved :)

Some hobby shops do nearly exactly this to get around import restrictions. Whether it’s inside something or not it’s still a lipo battery, imo it’s a silly rule and worth breaking.

I mean, it is at the airport. People function a lot different when travelling. I don't think there's much to an extrapolate out of regular behaviour from that observation.

> He popped in the new battery and tossed the old one in the trash.

...and then declared "This is MAGA country!"

I have my doubts this anecdote actually happened - where do they keep the variety of mobile batteries needed at the duty free, behind the bottles of gin and bars of German chocolate? Does Samsung even make "garbage tier" phones? Don't forget Apple gave us the iPhone 5C and other phones in Playskool colours.

Even if it did, most legit battery shops will recycle the old battery for free. If you're peddling massive Chinese schlock, not recycling batteries is the least of your ethical concerns.

I don’t know when you last travelled, but many airports are quite big and have more than one shop.

It also might shock you to hear that other countries also have airports.

People might also have bought phones in the past, so they might not be considered top-of-the-line any more.

> most legit battery shops will recycle the old battery for free

Will they recycle it, or take it and send it to Asia where it ends up in a landfill anyway?

> Does Samsung even make "garbage tier" phones?

Some of their lowest end models, between their incredibly weak hardware and huge load of preinstalled crapware (some of which runs in the background), are pretty terrible user experiences. I hesitate to use the term “garbage tier” because it’s needlessly acerbic but it wouldn’t be an inaccurate descriptor.

Apple offers a financial incentive to trade in your old iPhone. That is the pure reason.

And you have to say, tossing out the battery is much better than tossing out the entire phone, battery and all

> Apple offers a financial incentive to trade in your old iPhone. That is the pure reason.

Is that… a bad thing?

It’s not likely to be offered for random $200 phones.

> Meanwhile, I know loads of people who have traded in, or simply handed in, their old iPhones in an Apple Store. I can’t imagine anyone casually tossing an old iPhone in the trash the way my feckless bench-neighbour did.

Or just get the battery replaced at the Apple Store and keep using your phone an extra year or two. It's even cheaper than buying a new phone!

User replaceable batteries also covers “any old phone repair shop”. It’s quite possible that the aggregate recycling rates of these are not great.

If you want to achieve a very high battery recycling rate:

* Mandate that batteries be replaceable

* Mandate that repair shops recycle used batteries rather than throw them away

Mandates on consumers don't mean much because they're hard to enforce, but mandates on businesses are much easier. The consumer will come into the shop to get a new battery installed and drop off the old battery for recycling in the process.

Maybe throw in a trade-in rebate for the repair shops or something to seal the deal.

You need to go a step further:

* Mandate that the companies/organizations that claim to recycle batteries actually recycle them, with severe penalties for the ones that bid low and then just send the batteries to a landfill in another country.

We have a battery-recycling bowl at home as well as drawers holding old phones.

My guess is that batteries are more-often recycled than phones/laptops, even just on data-privacy issues alone.

Apple could just reward returns of old batteries.

It shouldn't be that hard for a company with so much know how and control over their products.

By your logic, user-replaceable filters create a waste stream of "used" filters, and user-replaceable light bulbs create a waste stream of "used" light bulbs.

I personally like nonserviceable batteries because I want my devices to be water resistant, but I'd be more hesitant to throw a battery in the trash than I would be to throw a dead device in the trash.

People have the option of recycling used devices, whether they be battery devices or smartphone devices, at a multitude of retailers.

The light bulb cartels are making lightbulbs that last 18 months on purpose. We should have had 20 year light bulbs fifty years ago.

Only the LEDs I have in table lamps have survived more than five years. All enclosed bulbs die from cheap components and heat damage.

"Only the LEDs I have in table lamps have survived more than five years. All enclosed bulbs die from cheap components and heat damage. "

Part of the problem is trying to make LEDs work in our preexisting lighting systems which requires components to make a low voltage DC light work with our existing AC wiring.

https://hackaday.com/2019/02/05/what-happened-to-the-100000-...

https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-l-e-d-quanda...

> “My starting point is, get the economics right,” Tim Cooper, a design professor who heads the sustainable-consumption research group at Nottingham Trent University, told me. It’s already possible to buy durable products, he said—Miele washing machines, Vitsoe shelving, Jaguar cars. But, because such products command premium prices, they remain niche goods; by Cooper’s estimate they make up less than five per cent of the market. To truly change a light bulb will require policy changes—whether regulatory, market-based, or voluntary within industries—that support longer product lifetimes

> Part of the problem is trying to make LEDs work in our preexisting lighting systems

I would agree if lamps designed from scratch for LEDs were any better in terms of longevity, but so far our ~20 year old halogen lamp has survived more than a dozen LEDs.

This will likely last you:

https://www.dyson.com/lighting

The general sentiment from teardown reviews is that the bulbs are using cheap electronics, and they could charge perhaps another $1 MSRP to make a bulb that lasted for a dozen years instead of a handful by switching out some components. When bulbs were $15 apiece that was exceptionally galling. It makes a tiny bit more sense when they're 3 for $16.

As a European I am a bit surprised by this comment. Resistant based light bulbs have been banned already for some years, and all the LED lighting you can get in stores just work? Don't really have to think about it. Also would not assume that a 220V grid would make this easier.

Is this satire?

It’s annoying but not super hard to replace apple batteries, atleast for iPhone you can just buy a $30 kit on amazon and replace it, even with a higher capacity one too. It could be made easier but it takes less than 30m start to finish, and there are plenty youtube videos if you’ve never done it before.

Are you sure your phone is still waterproof?

Yeah, the kit comes with a new seal as well.

Instead of replacing a battery people replace the device.

Is that a net win in your book?

Depends on what happens to the old device? Reuse? Great! Recycled? Just as great! In a drawer, gathering dust? Schrödinger's e-waste. Thrown away? Very bad.

So it's easier to make use of an old device when the battery holds a charge.

You can recycle batteries.

So get it replaced. You're implying that this is an ordeal, when it simply isn't. Using a device until it no longer functions is the best option, clearly. If it's still functional, reuse it or have it recycled, safely and properly. Where is the issue? The option to extend the useful life exists where the existing battery can be replaced and, if done properly, recycled.

You trying to suggest that user replaceable batteries are the best option. I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. While it is beneficial that these devices are easier to repair, the are downsides to this. The obvious one is how many people will responsibly recycle their batteries once replaced? A battery left in a drawer is as bad as it not being recycled or being irresponsibly disposed of. The point is, it isn't as open and shut as you are implying.

"The obvious one is how many people will responsibly recycle their batteries once replaced?"

Okay:

The obvious one is how many people will responsibly recycle their devices once replaced?

"A battery left in a drawer is as bad as it not being recycled or being irresponsibly disposed of."

Okay:

A device left in a drawer is as bad as it not being recycled or being irresponsibly disposed of.

Though previously you just called that Schrodinger's device, so now I fail to see how device in drawer is worse than device and battery in landfill.

> Okay:

> The obvious one is how many people will responsibly recycle their devices once replaced?

I agree, but my current anecdotal experience proves that there is considerably less friction for device recycling. Most, if not all, telco's will take an old mobile off your hands for recycling or refurbishing. Some will even accept trade-ins. Not sure what the situation with batteries is.

> ...so now I fail to see how device in drawer is worse than device and battery in landfill.

As bad not worse. It not being used. That means that it either can be recycled or refurbished and/or reused, except it's doing nothing. Materials that could be in use in some way aren't. In turn, new materials are needed, which adds environmental pressure. Small amounts add up. I can't see how this isn't a bad thing.

Oh so it's anecdotal.

Well my anecdotal evidence tells me my broken smart phones end up in my box of old electronics.

I don't service my devices through the telcos. I use prepaid plans and phones. Many people do. That's why department stores sell them. Because there's a customer base that needs them.

I sincerely doubt many 40 dollar off the shelf phones are being recycled.

Many people also likely find it stupid to pay someone to change a battery when we can do it ourselves.

I think a more reasonable compromise here is that we can probably both agree that recycling in general needs massive improvements. i.e. make it incredibly easier for people to recycle or remove the choice from the consumer completely.

P.s. if it's Schrödingers e-waste it's inherently 50-50 on what happens to it so it's not as bad.

And if small amounts add up then arguably devices+batteries in landfill are worse than just battery.

> I don't service my devices through the telcos. I use prepaid plans and phones.

That's on you.

> Many people do. That's why department stores sell them. Because there's a customer base that needs them.

Then make the department store responsible for offering recycling points. Make them responsible.

> I sincerely doubt many 40 dollar off the shelf phones are being recycled.

And that is a problem.

> Many people also likely find it stupid to pay someone to change a battery when we can do it ourselves.

Sure. Given the amount of small businesses that offer phone repair, many don't for a variety of reasons too. My own; keeping the manufacturer responsible for the rare earth materials, and if they fuck up the repair, they are liable. I fuck it up, I'm on my own.

> I think a more reasonable compromise here is that we can probably both agree that recycling in general needs massive improvements. i.e. make it incredibly easier for people to recycle or remove the choice from the consumer completely.

I agree wholeheartedly. To answer your postscript; being in a drawer unused is as bad as being in a landfill because there are materials and components that could be salvaged and reused/recycled. By not recycling them or reusing the device, new materials have to mined and processed. Th only thing you can say is that potentially harmful materials are leaching out, but as discussed, that is only part of the picture. The degree to it being marginally better being in a drawer is negligible.

> And if small amounts add up then arguably devices+batteries in landfill are worse than just battery.

Neither is good. Arguably, losing your hearing is better than losing your sight. The better option is losing neither.

"Then make the department store responsible for offering recycling points. Make them responsible."

Yeah I agree. More recycling for everything. I know that some hardware stores let you drop off old dead batteries but not typically lithium based iirc. Some groceries stores also have kiosks that pay for old phones, easily could be adapted for batteries as well.

Found this here today:

https://ai.googleblog.com/2023/04/robotic-deep-rl-at-scale-s...

I think personally letting people chuck everything into one bin and sort it at the collection site is a pathway to eliminate a lot of waste and eliminates arguing over which is often more recycled, a phone or a battery.