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Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by mikae1 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:08AM (#35449540)
Just gave Fedora a go on my 2015 MacBook Air. The most frustrating thing was how bad the trackpad suddenly sucked.

I haven't tried https://howchoo.com/linux/the-perfect-almost-touchpad-settin... yet.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by toastal on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:35AM (#35449721)
So Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on “good” trackpads and most things are fixed with software? But hardware is the arguments they make for their Apple purchases!
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by pseudostem on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:41AM (#35449787)
Not exactly, I tried to configure the trackpad open-source (driver?) ages ago.

The hardware itself has so many features/switches which are not open and hence not available to the software.

The hardware and software go hand in hand IMO.

Maybe things have changed now, this was at least 7+ years ago.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by Toutouxc on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:53AM (#35449882)
As a customer I don’t really care if it’s hardware or software, Apple delivers where others don’t.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by MonaroVXR on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:00AM (#35449931)
Such as? Genuine question.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by tannhaeuser on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:37AM (#35450195)
Top menu with reasonable use of available space rather than the half-assed attempt to appeal to a hypothetical normie user on a 2014 tablet that gnome is doing

Touchpad driver that isn't outright physically painful to use

Progress in assistive technologies, font rendering, display technology and resolution rather than shipping hardly readable traditional Linux-style dark-blue on black terminal themes on today's dark default themes coupled with a lack of easy configuration

Actually working power management, and actual power efficiency resulting in 10h running times (despite overreaching stuff such as systemd, the developer of which has now left for MS to feast on INIs)

Focus on end user functionality rather than endless new developer improvements and abstraction frameworks for self-inflicted problems (snap/flatpack/Docker and other meta containers rather than fixing ld.so and glibc or just use static linking) when new apps aren't coming anyways

A feeling that the desktop/Finder and UX is evolving and respecting habits rather than being restarted with every release

State of the art commercial apps for media production rather than 90s apps struggling for compatibility as devs turn to new playgrounds

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by terhechte on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @04:59AM (#35451262)
I would add Keybindings that are the same in all apps. Also, Having Command / Super as the keybinding key is awesome because it opens Control for the Readline / Emacs keybindings and doesn't end up in insane shortcut situations like every linux terminal where "copy" suddenly transforms from CTRL+C to CTRL+Shift+C.

MacOS has by far the best idea and implementation of how desktop keybindings should work (and no, I love vim but having desktop-wide vim keybindings doesn't make sense because not every input field can easily be modal). I'm constantly surprised why no linux distribution has copied this.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by krylon on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:42AM (#35451573)
That is the one thing I really miss after going back to Linux. Especially the Emacs-style keybinding in all text input were a delight.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by terhechte on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:55AM (#35451659)
FYI: You can enable them in Gnome with Gnome-Tweaks. Apparently a very recent version of Gnome dropped this functionality for reasons that are beyond my understanding (but that's often the case when I look at the decisions that the Gnome devs make).

However, getting the Control -> Command/Super thing to work is much trickier. The best way is to use this: https://github.com/mooz/xkeysnail

However when I tried that, I ran into all kinds of weird behaviours all over the OS. Also, it doesn't work with Wayland.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by benn0 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:10AM (#35452730)
Another option is https://kinto.sh . It worked perfectly for me out of the box on Pop OS, and with a few tweaks to shortcuts I’m pretty happy with the experience to the point where I can fairly seamlessly switch between computers and not be driven crazy by the shortcuts.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by goosedragons on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:03AM (#35451716)
You can't mention Emacs keybindings and claim "keybindings are the same in all apps" when Apple's Emacs keybindings are not the same as Emacs proper. For example moving a word left is now Ctrl-Option B instead of M-B.

Most terminal emulators let you remap Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+V if you really want.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by lobstrosity420 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:01AM (#35452620)
> Most terminal emulators let you remap Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+V if you really want.

But that doesn’t really help does it? Because now you’ve made killing and backgrounding a process just as hard. What you need is an extra accelerator key, which is only available on expensive boutique keyboards and not available at all on laptop keyboards.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by terhechte on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:05AM (#35452674)
Sure, it's not the full Emacs keybindings. But the existing ones are still better than what Linux Desktops offer. Some of the missing ones can be added by updating the `DefaultKeyBinding.dict` [1]. So in comparison to Linux not only does it have better Emacs keybindings support, macOS also allows adding a ton of custom shortcuts per system - without having to install weird xmodmap daemons that mutate your keys (which you also can do on macOS).

[1] https://gist.github.com/jwreagor/9670905

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by yamtaddle on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:28PM (#35457593)
An eye-opener for me on how useful all the configurability of Linux actually is has been looking into getting macOS-alike keyboard layouts and shortcut behavior on Linux. There's pretty high demand for it (lots and lots of posts all over the Web from people trying to figure out how to make it happen) and there are whole projects based around it, so I assume a fair amount of time has been spent trying to make it work, yet all the options I've found are janky as hell and fail to work under all kinds of common scenarios.

The more distance I get from using Linux as a daily-driver desktop OS, the more it looks like most of the benefits of its configurability and modularity are fairly superficial—especially in its GUI stack—while the harm it causes is deep.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:12AM (#35451362)
> Top menu with reasonable use of available space rather than the half-assed attempt to appeal to a hypothetical normie user on a 2014 tablet/netbook that gnome is doing

This (space efficiency, not necessarily the top menu bar) is the main thing that's keeping me away from Linux at this time. "Liberating" a Macbook Air feels like a great idea right until you have to do actual work on it, at which point, unless you're using the terminal, the screen will be largely empty space and huge widgets, with whatever text or image you're working on cramped between all those beautifully hand-crafted organic breathable widgets.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by circuit10 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:30AM (#35451494)
Isn’t this mostly a Gnome problem? Gnome isn’t the only DE
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:46AM (#35451599)
No, it's not mostly a Gnome problem. The default KDE theme, Breeze, is equally tablet-quality, and unless you want to fiddle with old QtCurve (which is nowhere near as space-efficient as macOS anyway) you're largely stuck with Qt's Fusion, which is itself barely tolerable.

As for Gnome applications, it's not a Gnome problem, it's a GTK problem, that affects all GTK applications, regardless of what DE they run under, and all GTK-based DEs, like XFCE.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by agentgumshoe on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:50AM (#35451627)
There are many desktops for Linux running the full gamut from large intrusive window dressing to nothing at all and all levels of efficiency in between.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:37AM (#35451948)
I don't mind window dressing, it's touch-sized buttons, tabs & co. on a desktop monitor that makes it all suck.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by smoldesu on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:18AM (#35454670)
This is actually the main reason I can't stand Big Sur and after - why is so much space wasted on touch interfaces if my Macbook has no touchscreen? The Quick Menu is the best/most frustrating example of this, but it's also apparent in the new widget design and settings app.

Pure no, from me. KDE feels much more natural to me now that I've settled in.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by goosedragons on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:10AM (#35451774)
Ubuntu Unity still works. It's basically the Mac desktop but better.

You can get even better space efficiency with a tiling WM. A lot of them don't bother with window chrome or even have a status bar with a clock out of the box.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:47AM (#35452013)
> You can get even better space efficiency with a tiling WM.

If you try to run the numbers on e.g. sway/i3, that barely makes a dent. Realistically, you can squeeze maybe 6-8px out of a sane window decoration before it gets impractical.

Meanwhile you can get like 10px of vertical space just by halving the vertical padding of a default Adwaita/Breeze button, and it's still larger than the equivalent macOS button which non-technical users can click just fine. Sane sizing on three stacked widgets saves more space than any tiling WM.

We can have nice things without going back to 1980s UI paradigms.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by goosedragons on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:19AM (#35452270)
Then just don't use Adwaita/Breeze themes if that bothers you so much? And yes, it's tied to the theme. Ubuntu Unity's default "Ambiance" theme uses much less space. XFCE's default theme also uses less space. You can get themes like Chicago 95 for XFCE which also use less space.

You could also just use MATE!

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:47AM (#35452485)
Having visited the third circle of hell before, and having actually gone as far as writing my own theme before giving up the whole charade, I would rather avoid revisiting the fourth circle of hell that GTK theming is.

Edit: also, both Greybird and Ambiance are both really large compared to anything you get on other platforms. It's through no fault of their authors, GTK's layout rules break (or at least broke, I was on GTK 3.24 last I tried it) at low padding values, and it's extremely hard to keep alignment afloat on small widgets. I'm also not exactly young anymore, the text contrast in Greybird's unfocused windows is pretty awful, and fixing anything related to GTK's :backdrop attribute is a very long-winded affair.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by zozbot234 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:16AM (#35452242)
Have you tried https://github.com/B00merang-Project/Windows-95 or any of the similar themes by that project? There's a bit of extra padding still but it's vastly more usable than the Adwaita default. (And of course you don't need to bother w/ the retro icon packs shown in the screenshot, the basic GTK+ theme is plenty enough.)

(The best UI with that kind of widget style today is arguably SerenityOS, but the repo I linked above tries to provide something similar for existing GTK+ apps.)

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:45AM (#35452461)
I have, I've actually written my own GTK theme years ago, before I gave up on it. B00merang Project's stuff is cool -- still way larger than it ought to be but indeed better -- but GTK theming is a raging dumpster fire.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by giantrobot on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:05PM (#35458160)
Not just GTK themes but all of the tweaks and extensions that are apparently necessary to have a UI usable by an adult. Even then it's a moving target and some GNOME update will break random shit or remove some control. It's absolutely infuriating.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by cwaffles on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:00AM (#35454362)
I find the server 2003 theme to be much more eye pleasing, mainly because it is designed to use more than 256 colors. https://github.com/B00merang-Project/Windows-Classic
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by alxlaz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:58AM (#35455331)
While I like the overall feeling of those themes for nostalgia reasons, they've got all sorts of quirks. E.g. toolbar icons aren't correctly aligned (you can see that in the screenshot, on the "forward" and "back" buttons in the left corner) -- both the horizontal and the vertical margins are wrong. It's not the authors' fault. I've poked at GTK's CSS before -- you can't make it work, not at the current abstraction level.

Also, for comparison, a Finder sidebar item is about half the height of the (unresizable) Nautilus sidebar item in the screenshot. Thank God for Thunar at least :-).

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by eitland on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:48AM (#35452014)
> Top menu with reasonable use of available space

Top menu does sound like a reasonable compromise until one has to switch between the bottom left corner of the screen and the menu in the top left enough times. I'm all for efficient use of vertical space - I am one of those who still remove the top tab bar and use tree-style-tabs, but in practice I think there is a reason why most of the world allows the menu to follow the thing it is linked to.

Also note that these menus doesn't add up on other systems either. I only "waste" space for one menu line on my Linux or Windows applications too.

> snap/flatpack/Docker

Meanwhile on Mac I still have to use AppZapper.

> A feeling that the desktop/Finder and UX is evolving and respecting habits rather than being restarted with every release

You are probably comparing to Gnome and Unity here I guess, not KDE 5 or Windows?

> State of the art commercial apps for media production rather than 90s apps struggling for compatibility as devs turn to new playgrounds

This varies with job description I think. In my field one of the reasons why I still hesitate to get a Mac next month - despite its many advantages - is the fact that so many open source programs I use looked ugly on Mac last I checked and some weren't available at all. Meanwhile on Linux I can just ap-get them or in Windows I can apt-get them in WSL and run them, GUI and all inside Windows. That is kind of magic!

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by teddyh on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @12:08PM (#35456431)
> Top menu does sound like a reasonable compromise until one has to switch between the bottom left corner of the screen and the menu in the top left enough times.

A top menu was reasonable for the original 9” Macintosh display of 512×342 pixels. (The original Macintosh could not even multi-task, and the visual components of the operating system were not designed for multiple programs at once.) The top menu was always close enough, and famously used Fitts’s law to its advantage. The NeXT system (17” display, 1120×832 pixels) realized that something even closer to the mouse pointer is wherever the mouse pointer happens to be right now, and added a right mouse button to the NeXT mouse; this button was completely dedicated to showing the menu, and was not used for “right-clicking” anything.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by sixothree on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:02AM (#35454399)
Sound like you need to give Windows a shot. It may be hated, but Windows 11 pretty much addresses your issue point by point.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by zdragnar on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @12:02PM (#35456341)
Funny, I've had consistently worse performance and battery life (due to worse performance) on macos / mbp than my lg gram running linux.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by raffraffraff on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:22AM (#35450098)
Trackpad. It's basically the only thing I always notice when using any other brands of laptop. Even the "really good ones" suck by comparison.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by Dalewyn on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:03AM (#35449957)
Best speakers in-class, consistently decent keyboard and touchpad (butterfly aside), consistently decent monitor/screen, consistent software design language, "It Just Works(tm)" convenience, social status symbol.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by toastal on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:04AM (#35452668)
With the speakers, it’s the tuning, not the hardware that is great (though I will agree their tuning is the best). The rest related to hardware, every flagship also does it just as well, but a little different. Software, if you’re comparing to Windows then anything will win, but macOS/iOS is really hostile to users in other ways. Idgaf about “status symbol”.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by Toutouxc on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:03AM (#35449951)
The trackpad.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by baq on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:58AM (#35450352)
Everything up to macOS itself is top notch. Trackpad, keyboard, display, CPU - all best in class. What isn't best in class is good enough. macOS the desktop part... let's keep it polite and call it a matter of preference (it sucks)
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by theK on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:51AM (#35450761)
Agreed. When I was using Apple laptops as daily drivers I always got the questions why I was replacing the OS with Linux. Fact of the matter was that (at least for me) it was a much stabler environment to work with, less crashing, less unexpected feature failures, etc.

Its funny how the reality distortion works for MacOS, people really look very incredulous when you tell them that Linux on Mac works better for you than MacOS on Mac :-)

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by jcz_nz on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:10AM (#35451776)
I’m not sure when your experience dates to, or what kind of dev you were working, but I’ve had the exact opposite: on MacBooks for ~15 years, range of dev (full stack on a few stacks down to large footprint performance critical golang), VM’s etc. In all that time I can count the number of full on crashes (kernel panics) on healthy hardware on one hand. macOS has been supremely stable in my experience.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by matwood on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:33AM (#35452367)
I always wonder what people are doing where their computer crashes all the time. I've been using Macs since the G4 days and have rarely had any crashes. But, the same is true for Windows for many years when I was a developer for Windows software. Linux is probably where I've had the most crashes b/c it lets you shoot yourself in the foot - which I did many times while learning linux in the 90s-00s.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by wafer_thin on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:20AM (#35452863)
I run arch linux on my ancient macbook pro 2011. The reason I installed this flavor of linux was to disable a faulty gpu, and the guidance I found was using this distro. This mac has been my all-day-every-day workhorse ever since. And as for linux, with i3 window manager it is fantastic. It runs all the latest things I need for programming and it runs them fast. I almost never boot into mac at all anymore.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by xibo9 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @11:08AM (#35455496)
People might look at you incredulously because their experience isn't mirroring yours. For instance, I honestly do not recall the last time macOS crashed on me. It does what I want it to do 99% of the time without getting in my way. But.. that's my experience. Linux on Mac might work better for YOU, don't presume that is the same for everyone else.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by not_enoch_wise on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @09:08AM (#35453510)
This!

Apple delivers the proprietary ports that deprecate all my yucky existing cables, the walled garden that drives up costs and stifles external innovation, the orthodox design choices that refuse to update in the face of UX concerns, and the tv remote controls so divorced from human reality it guarantees I won’t watch too much tv!

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by eyelidlessness on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:01AM (#35449944)
I’ve been using Macs almost exclusively since the 90s, through all of the ISA and OS transitions, and this is literally the first time I’ve ever heard that preference for Mac trackpads might have anything to do with hardware.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by eecc on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:40AM (#35450222)
No no, it does. Apple has bought trackpad company — was it FingerWorks? — that developed special HIDs for medical purposes. These things are a combination of pickup and signal processing, therefore hw and sw, that provides many extra layers of data that will contribute. Basic tracking will work out of generally understood signals, but the nuance comes from those that only proprietary sw can render.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by raffraffraff on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:33AM (#35450165)
I've been running Linux exclusively for over a decade on MacBooks and other laptops (flagship models from ASUS, HP, Lenovo) and I can tell you for certain it's the hardware. There may also be differences due to software, but if so, they're things I don't care about. The major thing for me is that I generally can't press to click on the other trackpads without immediately noticing that I have to press noticeably harder in some areas (eg: near the top) to register the click. On the MacBooks, it's absolutely consistent across the entire trackpad. Literally no other manufacturer seems to be able to do this. I hate using touch "tap" because it messes with typing, and no matter how good the software implementation of "disable tap when typing" it sucks. Pressing the trackpad gently and feeling the click, is the only way for me to use a trackpad.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by kalleboo on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @04:51AM (#35451216)
In case you're wondering, this is because on the MacBooks it's not physically depressing at all - it's detecting a push and then generating haptic feedback that feels like a click. I wonder why PC manufacturers can't do this - patents?
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by kaba0 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:35AM (#35451534)
Yep patents, but there was some recentish news that another company found another way to imitate those mechanics, so it might just come to other manufacturers as well soon.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by goosedragons on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:17AM (#35451817)
Steam Deck does it already.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by hot_gril on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @12:57PM (#35457136)
The haptic trackpads are a newer thing, though. I think introduced around 2013. Mac trackpads have been above the rest as far as I can remember, like 2000.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by ris58h on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:36AM (#35452391)
Haptic trackpad is the only reason I'm stuck with macs. other trackpad suck, pre-haptic Apple trackpads suck too.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by macintux on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:17AM (#35452820)
It’s funny: I love the trackpad, but I forget that it’s haptic because I love tap to click so much that I almost never trigger the haptic feedback.

I probably have to push to click once every few weeks.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by ris58h on Thursday April 06, 2023 @11:33AM (#35469788)
For me it's a game changer. I can move a cursor and click without removing my finger from the trackpad.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by rsynnott on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @09:02AM (#35453431)
Really? I think it's more arguable that it's mostly/entirely software _today_, but there was a fairly long period where an Apple trackpad was a large glass thing whereas the average PC trackpad was a small thing made of soft plastic which didn't support multitouch at all. There clearly _was_ a major hardware gap, though I do think it's less clear there is today.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by hot_gril on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:06AM (#35449972)
Trackpads like many peripherals are a combination of tightly coupled hardware, firmware, and software. If it were a simple issue, you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by mbreese on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:36AM (#35450190)
> you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now

I wonder if Microsoft and Linux developers tend to use a mouse over a trackpad? If they don’t use a trackpad, it isn’t a pain point for them and thus not something that would get prioritized. Apple (on the other hand) has historically had horrible mice (pretty, but poor ergonomics) and solid developer laptops, so trackpads get used more. [1]

Regardless of the platform, if a developer feels a pain point, that particular issue will be dealt with sooner. If windows/Linux trackpad usability is “good enough”, it’s not going to be a high priority.

[1] source: me. I’ve used many Apple mice and loved the Magic Mouse, even with the strange charging port. That is until I started having carpal tunnel inflammation and switched to a trackpad and finally a more traditional mouse.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by npteljes on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:21AM (#35451438)
I have always wondered about this. I have never used a Macbook, but I haven't had any issues with the trackpad on Linux either - I flick my finger, point, tap to click, pinch to zoom, double finger to scroll etc. I'm always using laptops a couple generations behind, and it always worked, often out of the box.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by jon-wood on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:38AM (#35453098)
It may be a bit of a chicken & egg thing. All the people I've seen regularly using Windows laptops carry around a wireless mouse with them that gets used anytime they're using it for an extended period, presumably because the trackpad is so bad. That's going to mean MS' metrics say most people use a mouse, even when a trackpad is available, in which case why bother improving it?
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by yamtaddle on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:40PM (#35457772)
That's what I used to do, when I was a Windows and Linux user, because the trackpad on PC laptops was intolerable to use for more than about one minute (and I could never get the hang of trackpoint).

Developed a habit, like checking that I had my keys and wallet, when taking my laptop anywhere. Grab the mouse, grab the power supply, throw them in the bag, because the trackpad was always nigh-unusable and the battery life was only good enough for hopping between outlets unless you had a (charged!) extra battery to carry along.

Took some time to break those habits after switching to Macbooks, where neither was necessary unless I'd be away from my desk more than a day. Unplug laptop, pick up, walk away, don't think about anything else. Go figure, a portable computer that lets you treat it like it's portable.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by hot_gril on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @12:52PM (#35457064)
> Apple (on the other hand) has historically had horrible mice (pretty, but poor ergonomics) and solid developer laptops, so trackpads get used more.

If you have a Mac desktop and don't like the mouse (cause they always did suck), the natural replacement is a third-party mouse, not an external trackpad. I think Apple and its userbase have always been more laptop-oriented, though.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by komali2 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:08AM (#35450439)
Alongside the mouse comment, I also wonder if Linux people don't care about trackpad because many (most?) of us don't like using mouse / trackpads because we prefer using keyboards mostly.

I think I can make an argument that trying to do most things on a keyboard will result in faster workflows and less wrist strain, but to do so feels similar to the arguments I have about avoiding super-googlifying your life, preference for using communication solutions like Signal rather than captured applications like messenger or instagram, recommending libre software, etc. For whatever reasons, normies just wanna slide fingers on trackpad / upload their faces to companies / give up their software rights!

Maybe I'm off base but I really feel similarly about keyboard usage as I do to other "nerd shit" like above. The best argument I've ever heard for it though was from the World of Warcraft days: people who click their spells with their mouse, rather than using extensive keybindings (you have more than 9 spells so need to involve shift, ctrl, and start using the keys around wasd as well), you would simply never be as good as a keyboard user. We called mouse-users "clickers" as a derogatory term. I started as a clicker (like most kids I'm sure) and was so astounded by how much better I got at the game, and how much easier it was to play, when I got used to keyboard bindings for spells, that I started trying it in other software, like MS word and power point. "Clickers suck" was a trueism there too, and so from like age 13 on I've always been the kind of person to invest maybe 5 minutes to an hour learning a new software's keybindings and I think it's paid dividends.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by hot_gril on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @12:55PM (#35457109)
For GNU/Linux I get it. A lot of gaps there are just cause those people aren't interested in certain things. For Windows, I'm actually surprised Microsoft and Dell/whoever haven't gotten together to make a decent trackpad.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by AceJohnny2 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:36AM (#35450633)
For Microsoft, it's a hardware vendor driver problem.

For Linux, Peter Hutterer [1] has been working at it for a long time, and you're quite right.

[1] http://who-t.blogspot.com/2023/01/libinput-and-custom-pointe...

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by pharmakom on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:05AM (#35450412)
Maybe the hardware AND the software matter.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by kaba0 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:32AM (#35451515)
No matter how good a hardware is, it can be made sucky with bad software -- I honestly don't see how you came to the conclusion that it is fixed in software, that's just faulty logic on your side.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by rsynnott on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:56AM (#35453347)
It's likely a bit of both.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by eropple on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @09:56AM (#35454269)
The hardware's part of it. They use a big trackpad and they position it centrally, which a lot of manufacturers don't do. But of course a good bit of it is software, Hackintosh touchpads (when they worked) inherited most then-OS X features. I don't know anyone who ever suggested otherwise.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by msravi on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:39AM (#35449759)
On my mid-2010 Macbook Pro, with Linux Mint (Xfce), the trackpad works just fine...
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by xputer on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:50AM (#35449854)
Have you ever used said MacBook intensively with OSX? I guarantee you the difference in trackpad performance will be mind boggling and frustrating. Literally the only thing keeping me away from using Linux.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by hot_gril on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:03AM (#35449956)
I'm extra careful with compatibility claims after the number of times someone says how Linux works great on whatever Mac, or Mac OS runs great on a Hackintosh, only for me to discover how many "inconsequential" things are broken. Like it'll not sleep, not have wifi or bluetooth, run the fans at 100%, and be missing various forms of hardware accel.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by msravi on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:11AM (#35450001)
Yes, I have, intensively for 5 years or so. Apart from gestures (which I don't use), I find the trackpad performance just fine.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by macintux on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @08:23AM (#35452895)
Gestures are a huge part of the appeal for some of us, so that’s good to know.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by pantalaimon on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @09:09AM (#35453518)
I think they are available on Gnome
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by LesZedCB on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:52AM (#35449879)
works yes but it is jumpy and no gestures by default. my ability to precisely mouse over a target and click is significantly diminished from osx. I only installed a few months ago so the loss is still near to me.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by msravi on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:59AM (#35449920)
Gestures are not there on Linux, but in terms of mouse movement and scrolling I don't see a difference!
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by RileyJames on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:01AM (#35449940)
I similarly found the trackpad fine with Linux mint.

Tho I found the difference in gestures quite annoying. Primarily in web apps like Miro. And window / app switching.

With enough hacking around it seemed like all the gesture support was there, but making it all work in the same way as OSX was going to require a lot of configuration.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by smoldesu on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @01:47AM (#35449835)
Did you double-check that you're on Wayland? My Magic Trackpad works like a charm in KDE Plasma Wayland.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by mikae1 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @02:01AM (#35449939)
I believe so. Isn't Wayland default on Fedora? Did you compare Wayland to X11? I also went for the KDE Plasma spin.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by pantalaimon on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @09:09AM (#35453527)
Aren’t they both using libinput? How would Wayland make a difference there?
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by smoldesu on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:00AM (#35454359)
I just don't get trackpad gestures on KDE or GNOME under x11. My Magic Trackpad only really "works" when running in a Wayland session of either desktop.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by bilqis on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:00AM (#35450380)
On my MacBook Pro 2015 touchpad works very good with Debian and Ubuntu GNU/Linux.
Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by fevangelou on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @05:39AM (#35451559)
I can at least confirm that Ubuntu 22.10's out-of-the-box touchpad support is PERFECT on a 2008 Macbook Aluminum (Core 2 Duo / 8GB RAM / SSD). Exactly as you'd expect with macOS.

I was actually astounded at how better this model worked with Ubuntu compared to El Capitan (last official supported version) or even Catalina (the last unsupported version I tried with dosdude1's patches, as I didn't know about OCLP at the time - perhaps OCLP didn't even exist when Catalina was out).

Granted it's an older model (compared to yours) and the Linux kernel probably already has support for its touchpad generation baked in, but I'm sure it won't be hard to load an extra driver (e.g. Synaptics?) or tweak some config file to get it to work like on macOS. I had a similar issue with T440 & X240 Thinkpads and the touchpad performance improved dramatically by installing the Synaptics driver from Ubuntu repos (on Ubuntu 20.04 at the time).

Seeing how you can resurrect much older hardware with Linux, the only question that remains is why some freaking companies still refuse not to support Linux with their software - and I'm not just talking about Adobe here, but companies like Panic, Pixelmator and others that choose to be Mac only.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by oblio on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @06:14AM (#35451798)
> Seeing how you can resurrect much older hardware with Linux, the only question that remains is why some freaking companies still refuse not to support Linux with their software - and I'm not just talking about Adobe here, but companies like Panic, Pixelmator and others that choose to be Mac only.

Statistically people who use hardware from 15 years ago won't pay much for brand new software licenses :-)

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by fevangelou on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @11:00AM (#35455369)
And this is what you understood from that?

Intel Macs will soon become obsolete. Lots of folks will not just throw away a few years old machines. So between the choice of ditching perfectly fine hardware due to an unsupported OS or switching to Linux, it's really a no-brainer. Unless of course you live in the SV bubble and change devices every 6 months in which case kudos to you.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by oblio on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @11:43AM (#35456043)
I was referring to this:

> Seeing how you can resurrect much older hardware with Linux, the only question that remains is why some freaking companies still refuse not to support Linux with their software - and I'm not just talking about Adobe here, but companies like Panic, Pixelmator and others that choose to be Mac only.

Those companies don't care because those people are non-clients anyway.

Re:Liberating the MacBook Air 2013 with Linux by sixothree on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @10:00AM (#35454353)
I am constantly astounded watching people use trackpads as their primary cursor control. It's so frustrating watching people just waste your time doing something "the slow way". The least they could do is learn some hotkeys or something.