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Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bruce511 on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:22AM (#35419257)
I'm gonna get hated on for this, but I don't think "give back" is an open source concept.

I'm not aware of any Open Source license,or Free license for that matter,that has a give-back clause. Source code is available to -users- ,not prior-authors.

Some Open Source licenses can be used in proprietary code, (MIT, BSD etc) with little more than simple attribution.

Those developers chose that license for a reason, and I've got no problem with commercial entities using that code.

There is a valid argument to be made about the training of models on GPL code. (Argument in the sense that there's two sides to the coin.) On the one hand we happily train humans on GPL code. Those humans can then write their own functions,but for trivial functions they're gonna look a lot like GPL Source.

If the AI is regurgitating GPL code as-is, then that's a problem- not dissimilar to a student or employee regurgitating the same code.

But this argument is about Free software licenses,not really (most?) Open Source licenses.

Either way OSS/Free is not about "giving back",its about giving forward.

In the specific case here of co-pilot making money,I'd say A) you're allowed to make money from Free/OSS code. B) no one is forcing you to use this feature.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by japhyr on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:30AM (#35419323)
No need to hate on you for a valid response.

I think we're in a new enough situation that we can look beyond what's legal in a license. When many of us started working on open source projects, AI was a far-off concept. Speaking for myself, I thought we'd see steady improvement in code-completion tools, but I didn't think I'd see anything like GPT-4 in my lifetime.

Licenses were written for humans working with code. We can talk about corporations as well, but when I've thought about corporations in the past, I thought about people working on code at corporations. The idea of an AI using my open source project to generate working code for someone or some corporation feels...different.

Yes, I'm talking explicitly about feelings. I know my feelings don't impact the legalities of a license. But feelings are worth talking about, especially as we're all finding the boundaries of new tools and new ways of working.

I don't agree with everything in the post, but I think this is a great conversation to be having.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bruce511 on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:57AM (#35419529)
I agree that AI usage of code is somewhat murky with current licenses,which obviously don't mention it either way.

Free software has a principle of "freedom to run, to do whatever you wish" (freedom 0), so arguably has said that training AI is OK. (We could quibble over the word Run, but the Gnu.org,and RMS clearly say "freedom 0 does not restrict how you use it."

GPL code can be used by the military to develop nuclear weapons. Given that the is a guiding principle of the FSF its hard to argue that the current usage is not OK.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by eulenteufel on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:12AM (#35419656)
I have no problem with Copilot being trained on AGPL code and the getting released with a AGPL compatible license. Free to do whatever they want with it.

The problem is Copilot training on source code and then discarding any restrictions of the licenses. Maybe it is legal right now but I'm sure this case will find it's way into open source licenses pretty soon.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zelphirkalt on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:38AM (#35419850)
Even if usage is legal right now, the other obligations of the license need to be adhered to as well. Can't just pick or choose one tiny aspect of FSF philosophy and run with that. AGPL is clearly about sharing and spreading free/libre software as well.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by hikawaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:36AM (#35419830)
Do we know if CoPilot X was trained on AGPL, not just GPL?

Additionally I'm not sure if AGPL does anything.

I suspect the ethics and such of licensing when large fractions of work are training AI and using AI need to be worked out rather than getting mad at any individual.

What does copy left look like for AI?

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zelphirkalt on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:42AM (#35419902)
There is indeed a problem of transparency right now. Companies afaik did not release the complete training data set. Might even be intentionally, because they do not want to risk, that they trained it on stuff they should not have had, without building in license and attribution into the output of their models. Or it might be, that they know that to be a fact.

I can only hope, that lawmakers hurry to catch up with reality and impose transparency obligations for AI models.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by uuuguaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:56AM (#35420019)
The problems are attribution and licensing. Not use.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by fauigerzigerk on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:24AM (#35423115)
I largely agree with you, but I think there is one question that hasn't been addressed yet: Are the weights learned by an LLM a derivative work?

When a person learns from GPL code this question doesn't arise. The state of a person's brain is outside of copyright. But is the state of an LLM also outside of copyright or outside of the terms covered by the GPL? I'm not sure.

An LLM can not only emit source code derived from code published under the GPL, it can also potentially execute a program and could therefore be considered object code.

This isn't necessarily a problem as long as the model isn't distributed and does not include any AGPL code.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by kuschku on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:10AM (#35423852)
> the state of a person's brain is outside of copyright

It clearly isn’t. Which is why clean-room reverse engineering always requires at least two people. Or why a musician that accidentally recreates a chord progression they heard years ago but don't remember the source might still get sued.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by fauigerzigerk on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:03PM (#35426158)
No, you're missing the very distinction I'm trying to highlight.

When I read and remember a text, possibly also learning from it, I'm not making a copy and I'm not creating a derivative work. The state of my brain is outside of copyright. Only at the point where I create a new representation based on what I have read I may be violating someone's copyrights.

But is it the same for an AI? Is the act of reading, remembering and learning (i.e. adjusting model weights) not in itself tantamount to creating a derivative work?

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by 8note on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:02PM (#35430429)
> The state of my brain is outside of copyright.

Is it actually? If we could fully pull out the state of your brain, and understand that you stored a copy of a copyrighted work, I think you could be on the hook for licensing it, paying fees every time you remember the work as a performance of it.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by happymellon on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:10AM (#35419644)
> Yes, I'm talking explicitly about feelings. I know my feelings don't impact the legalities of a license.

They don't impact the current legality of a licence, but it will affect future ones.

GPL/BSD/Apache/proprietary, they are all picked for ideological concerns which all stem from feelings. It is good to discuss these things, and it is good to recognise that these are emotionally driven.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by Sander_Marechal on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:23AM (#35419736)
> They don't impact the current legality of a license, but it will affect future ones.

Don't they? Even the most liberal licenses require that you at least keep the license and attributions. Which are exactly the parts that AI systems remove. I would have no problem with an AI system trained on GPL code if the output was still covered by the GPL.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by tlocke on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:43AM (#35419904)
The MIT No Attribution licence https://choosealicense.com/licenses/mit-0/ doesn't require an attribution.

It's the licence I choose for new projects.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by uuuguaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:53AM (#35419988)
That's very generous of you. Don't get angry though if I go ahead and re-publish all your code with your name replaced by mine. That's exactly what you are allowing me to do with such a license.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by mech422 on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:26AM (#35421140)
That would be a copyright violation, not a licensing issue. GP is giving you a _license_ to use his code without having to say "GP wrote this", he is NOT giving up his rights to the code..

edit: to clarify, he's allowing you to _use_ it however you like, including making a derivative work, including it wholesale, etc. However, claiming authorship of the original code would still run afoul of the original copyright.

edit2: oh - if you mean relicensing the code - that is allowed.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by cornel_io on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:49AM (#35419946)
Whether or not copyright applies at all to model training is an entirely open question, and where rulings have come down, it's likely closer to these situations being fair use (e.g. the Google Book's case, which was ruled transformative and not a direct replacement for the works in question).

The reality is, these models don't copy or distribute anything directly, which makes applying copyright a bit of a stretch. Many people feel like it is a use that should have some sort of IP law applying to it, which is why I think there's some chance that courts or legislators will decide to screw the letter of existing law and just wedge new interpretations in, but it's not super simple: they'd have to thread the needle and not make things like search illegal, and that's tricky. Besides that, these models are out there, they're useful, and if they're ruled infringing they'll just be distributed illegally anyways.

I don't envy the people who will have to decide these cases, I suspect what's better for the world overall is to leave the law as-is and clarify that fair use holds (nobody will stop publishing content or code just because AI is slurping it up, a few weirdos like the article author excepted), but there are going to be a lot of pissed off people either way...

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:15AM (#35421063)
Would I be able to train an AI only using microsoft's leaked windows code to write a windows clone with no copyright (since it comes from an AI) and be safe from legal repercussions because it was trained on fair use code I just happened to find online?

If they rule that it's ok to do that, I might be ok with AI being ruled as fair use.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by sokoloff on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:47AM (#35421336)
Is it even fair use under the law to consume that Windows source code?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:36PM (#35426855)
People who train AI models claim that anything they can find on the internet is fair use.

It's the whole point of the discussion… is it really?

And if it's not fair use to train on windows source code because of copyright… doesn't that same copyright law cover everything else as well?

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by sokoloff on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:45PM (#35427028)
I think there's a reasonable distinction to make between "you can train AI models on any code that you are legally allowed to have and read" and "you can train AI models on any code that you are able to feed into it, regardless of whether you have permission to possess/read it".
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:50PM (#35429317)
You're not legally allowed to have and read it if you knowingly violate its license terms.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by FrustratedMonky on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:38AM (#35423349)
Exactly. I'm betting if you asked GPT to create a windows clone, for sure MS would not let you distribute. This will go like every other law/license, big corp can sue little guy into the ground. When big corp uses your code it will be 'thats just a model generated code not yours'. But in other direction, if little guys creates windows clone, 'sorry, its off to jail for you maytee'.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by jgerrish on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:38PM (#35428033)
Even if it's the opposite direction, big guy losing and small guy coming out ahead, it's still drama.

Just like Covid introduced epidemiological terms to the general public, this issue can introduce design choices around licensing, copyright and watermarking to more people.

I assume there is a group of researchers building tools to provide fine-grained historical views into AI output. And yes, for billions of parameters trained on billions of documents, linking every letter to a source document is a UX nightmare.

But what a cool problem. That's the interesting part. Yeah, something like TileBars[1] or Seesoft[1] seems like the right tool. But maybe keeping it all text with some graphical marker of authenticity is the better choice.

So many cool problems. But, that authenticity marker is the hard sell. Can enough sane discussions be enough to introduce that, or is drama required?

https://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hearst/irbook/10/node7....

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by happymellon on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:35AM (#35421778)
You misunderstood. Their emotions do not impact current licences, but their choice of licence is an emotional act.

There are plenty of arguments to choose a licence, and as the world changes we will evolve. See how the GPL itself evolved to handle TiVo. These things arent static.

I personally agree that GPL trained code should produce GPL code, I see a distiction between teaching people and teaching computers but that isn't my call.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zelphirkalt on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:34AM (#35419821)
They are emotionally driven, but that is not all there is too it. They are also driven by an insight, that most people/organisations do not give back to the community, unless obligated to do so. It is about advancement of society and goods everyone can use, if only they give back to society, when it is their turn to share.

This is exactly what code laundering ANNs circumvent and that might open up a dystopian future for all of us, not only us code monkeys, but society in general.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ghaff on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:36AM (#35422454)
>they are all picked for ideological concerns which all stem from feelings

Or, perhaps more commonly, they were picked for business model reasons or (related) because building a community that includes commercial interests tends to favor more permissive licensing.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by Lutger on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:37AM (#35420343)
Fully agree.

This may seem a bit nitpicky and philosophical, but anyway: these feelings you mention are about things, and these things the feelings come from are what is most important. Feelings are never standalone, if they are they are just moods which are so personal its hard to have a conversation over.

Let's call 'the things' values. I'd say feelings are perceptions of values, and as such they invariably have a conceptual element to them. And exactly that conceptual aspect makes them suitable for conversation and sometimes even debate, insofar as they can be incorrect. We can acknowledge the subjective, emotive aspect of feelings as highly and inalienably personal, respect the individual opinion behind them and contest the implicit truth-claims all at the same time.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by FrustratedMonky on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:29AM (#35423208)
Yes. People here seem to be forgetting that Open Source was a community driven ideal first. The License came later as "protection". Corporations were stealing code and there was no recourse. The variety of open source licenses were created to provide a framework for the community, to fight off stealing, to keep it open. So GPT is very much 'laundering' the code just like criminals 'launder' money.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by slg on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:58AM (#35419539)
If we are being honest as a community, open source developer are pretty far down the list of groups with valid grievances against this current wave of AI for how they are trained. There is at least a debatable case that these systems are operating in the spirit if not the exact letter of general open source licenses. It is a much harder argument to make for the AI trained on writing and art that is clearly copyrighted. If you have ethical questions about Copilot, you really should be against this entire crop of AI systems.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by marcus_holmes on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:14AM (#35419670)
So you're suggesting that developers shut up and let the artists talk first? I'm not sure what the "you're suffering less than these other people" thing is actually intended to translate into? What do we do with that?

All software licences are based on copyright, same as writing, art, music, etc. Some software licences are permissive. Some writing is permissive (e.g. Cory Doctorow). Some music is permissive (e.g. Amanda Palmer). It entirely depends on what the author wants. The fact that more software is permissive is a good thing, right?

I entirely agree that there are ethical problems with training AI on copyrighted training data. But please let's not start gatekeeping this. We need to have a serious discussion as a culture about it, and saying "you're way down the list of victims" isn't helping.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by slg on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:16AM (#35420197)
> So you're suggesting that developers shut up and let the artists talk first? I'm not sure what the "you're suffering less than these other people" thing is actually intended to translate into? What do we do with that?

The tech community has a tendency to not care about issues like this until it effects us. I’m not telling people to shut up about this. I’m saying don’t be a hypocrite. If this is the wrong approach for GitHub, it is a problem with the way all these AI are trained.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by asmor on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:49AM (#35420870)
This is a pattern of argument I see all the time in minority communities, and it really irks me the wrong way.

You are allowed to care about the things you care about and not have a concrete well-informed opinion on something related that might be more pressing. It only becomes hypocricy as soon as you actively dismiss the other thing as if you were well-informed. And I don't see anyone here doing that.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by w4ffl35 on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:43AM (#35422526)
> If this is the wrong approach for GitHub, it is a problem with the way all these AI are trained.

Broken logic.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by mftrhu on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:42PM (#35429181)
There is indeed a problem with the way all these models are trained, and too many people want to pretend that colour can be laundered out <https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23>
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zelphirkalt on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:59AM (#35420058)
What I agree with is the typical open source dev, who goes "I MIT license all my things, because I have seen it elsewhere and I don't want to think about licenses a lot." being pretty far down the list of groups of people to complain.

What I disagree with is the idea, that they should therefore not complain, or that there could not be an AI system, that does not code laundering, but keeps licenses in place and does this ethically and in an honest way. Adding "ethically" and "honest way", because I am sure that companies will try to find a way around being honest, if they ever are forced to add back the licenses.

In fact, artists might not be the group, that grasps the impact of training on that corpus as quickly as the dev communities. Perhaps it is exactly the devs, who need to complain loudest and first, to have a signal effect.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by rob74 on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:04AM (#35419604)
You're allowed to make money from Free/OSS code, and plenty of companies have (Google, Amazon etc.), but they have always also at least given back something to the community to earn some good will. The situation with AI is new because it not only doesn't give anything back, it actually takes something away by threatening developers' jobs etc.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by dolmen on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:17AM (#35420618)
> they have always also at least given back something to the community to earn some good will

The busybox authors disagree: https://busybox.net/license.html

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by WinstonSmith84 on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:20AM (#35419716)
Most people I know who contribute, or host open source projects, me included, do this for references. And the most successful ones find a way to generate revenue. "Giving back" is a nice additional thing, but I don't know anybody who does that _primarily_ to "help the world"
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by dijit on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:23AM (#35419739)
> I'm not aware of any Open Source license,or Free license for that matter,that has a give-back clause.

§5.c of the GPL Version 3 states explicitly:

> You must license the entire work, as a whole, under this License to anyone who comes into possession of a copy. This License will therefore apply, along with any applicable section 7 additional terms, to the whole of the work, and all its parts, regardless of how they are packaged. This License gives no permission to license the work in any other way, but it does not invalidate such permission if you have separately received it.

As in, all modifications must be made available. Is that not meeting your definition of giving back? GPL (all variants) is one of the most widely distributed of the free software licenses and has an explicit "give back" clause as far as I can see it. -- and is part of why some people referred to GPL as a "cancer".

FWIW the issue I've come to have with copilot is that you're not explicitly permitted to use the suggestions for anything other than inspiration (as per their terms), there is no license given to use the code that is generated. You do so at your own risk.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by desas on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:31AM (#35419800)
Modifications you distribute have to be given back. You don't have to distribute the modifications though.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by yakubin on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:42AM (#35419901)
Not given back to the original authors, but given to the users.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by uuuguaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:59AM (#35420057)
Issue is that many large corporations use FLOSS internally with heavy extensions/modifications and never give back to the community. They don't have to, since all users are in-housr, and those tend to have access to the source code.

But that's ok. If upstream is somewhat active then it's just a pain to keep maintaining your in-house patches, compared to sending them upstream. So that's automatically a motivator. If upstream is not active, then it does not matter anyway.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by sokoloff on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:54AM (#35421411)
Only if you give those users your modified version.

If I host GPL software on a webserver and my users use that webserver, I don’t have to give them the source code for modified GPL programs. This is fairly common.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ilikehurdles on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:08AM (#35423819)
Depends on which GPL you’re using.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bruce511 on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:21AM (#35420236)
>> As in, all modifications must be made available. Is that not meeting your definition of giving back?

Available to all users. Not previous authors. There may be overlap, or there may not be overlap.

Plus, I would say it's giving forward, not back. If there are public users then the original authors can become users and get the code. But there will be bug fixes and features smooshed together.

Which is why i posit that there's no "give back" concept in the license. Only "give forward".

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by FrustratedMonky on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:40AM (#35423378)
Man, that is really splitting some fine hairs
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by pms on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @02:14PM (#35443798)
Wow! Just wow... Apparently, some people don't get the idea of common good... as if it didn't exist...
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by numpad0 on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:28AM (#35419774)

    then that's a problem- not dissimilar to  
                          ^
Discontinuity here.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by GoblinSlayer on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:29AM (#35419784)
Trivial functions aren't copyrightable, so it doesn't matter whether they are GPL or not.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by rdiddly on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:32AM (#35419810)
Yeah on the one hand, isn't opening your source all about not really minding what happens to it after that? It's intended to be copied and used. On the other hand something about the term "laundering" kind of resonated for me. It's kind of like automated plagiarism where you spread your copying out over millions of people. But plagiarism only has meaning as an offense when the thing being copied isn't intended to be copied. But for copyright purposes is there a difference between copying exactly, and the type of blending a LLM does? I'm too confused. That feeling when you hit on something society has never thought about before.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by lionkor on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:44AM (#35419917)
no, open source isn't about practically giving up your rights, its about restricting use of your code and software in exactly such a way that it gives every user as much freedom as possible.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zelphirkalt on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:53AM (#35419993)
If we go by how many people explain open source, you would be right, but if we go by how people who actually know what their licenses are supposed to do explain open source, then no. You give a license for a specific reason. One might be to allow others to copy, but there is usually a condition, and that is to leave the license information intact. If we go further towards free/libre software licenses like GPL or AGPL, then we have more conditions to it. For example that, if you distribute software using that code, you need to distribute the source of your software as well (a bit imprecise).

If you want to get a better picture of the situation, read up on the licenses and what they do, specifically the term "copyleft".

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by robertlagrant on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:58AM (#35420947)
That's why OSS is not about the contents of more restrictive licences (as you say, copyleft is a good example), but about the broadest definition that applies to all of them. More specialised sub-types can have more conditions, but then we should speak about those sub-types directly.

I make this point because it causes confusion. Saying "my OSS project is being run by others for money and I get none of it" is confusing, as it uses the supertype. Using the subtype is clearer, and even self-explanatory: "my project I licenced so others can make money from it while giving me none is being run by others to make money from it and I get none".

That may be a bad situation, but at least the reasons are now clear.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by layer8 on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:54AM (#35419998)
This actually has been thought about before, in the context of remixes, collages, etc. The essential question is how much of the originality of the original work(s) constitutes the originality of the new/derived work. If it is little enough, then it’s okay. The issue with AI models is that they have no way of assessing originality and tracking the transfer of originality.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by uuuguaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:02AM (#35420092)
> Yeah on the one hand, isn't opening your source all about not really minding what happens to it after that?

No! That's a gross misrepresentation of what open sourcing is. It's the offer of a deal. You publish the source code and in return for looking at it and using it for sth, I have obligations. Like attribution and licensing requirements regarding derived works.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by AmericanChopper on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:03AM (#35420512)
The term is being used here to imply that the generated code is somehow bypassing the licensing requirements, which isn’t necessarily true, and certainly isn’t a substantiated claim.

You can read licensed code, learn from it, and then write your own code derived from that learning, without having committed a copyright violation.

You can also read licensed code, directly copy paste it into your codebase, and still not have committed a copyright violation, as long as you did so in a way that constituted fair use (which copy-pasting snippets certainly would).

There’s no copyright issue here at all, and rationally speaking there aren’t any legitimate misuse of open source concerns either. If these people were honest they’d just admit to feeling threatened by AI, but nobody would care about that, so they just try to manufacture some fake moral panic.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by layer8 on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:41AM (#35419895)
One possible problem is if Copilot gets good enough that you can rather easily sidestep GPL (or any other license) by having Copilot implement functionality X for you instead of using a license-bound library providing X. Not only may this be questionable regarding the license, but it would also be tend to reduce contributions to the library which otherwise would have been used.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by the_gipsy on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:03AM (#35420096)
Shouldn't be different from a human ripping or regurgitating parts of the code.

If it's not a hard derivation, then it's difficult to prove or even notice.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by feanaro on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:39AM (#35420369)
It shouldn't matter. If your model touched X during training, it should be seen as producing derivative work. This is the reason humans use clean room implementation techniques.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by the_gipsy on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:32AM (#35422419)
The opposite of clean room is probably much more common.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by usrbinbash on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:33AM (#35422432)
> If your model touched X during training, it should be seen as producing derivative work.

I as a programmer touched X during training (learning how to code). Is all my work now derivative because of that?

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by feanaro on Saturday April 08, 2023 @05:10AM (#35491756)
If you examined the source code of a library for a specific purpose Y, then shortly afterwards went implementing another library for purpose Y, there's a high probability of your code being infringing. That's the entire premise and purpose of clean room design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design).

Now factor in that machine models don't have a fallible or degrading memory and I think the answer is quite clear.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by layer8 on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:17AM (#35420206)
My point was more about the possible negative effects than about the legality.

An important difference is that AIs are much cheaper than a human. Having a library reimplemented by a human usually isn’t cost-effective, but having it done by an AI may become viable. That could cause a major change in the open-source dynamics, while possibly also reducing average software quality (because less code is publicly scrutinized).

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by zirgs on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:02AM (#35422794)
ChatGPT already can rewrite functions to use different algorithms.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by uuuguaii on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:50AM (#35419960)
> I'm not aware of any Open Source license,or Free license for that matter,that has a give-back clause. Source code is available to -users- ,not prior-authors.

In essence, copyleft licenses are exactly that. They oblige the author of a derived work to publish the changes to all users under the same terms. The original authors tend to be users. So, a license which would grant this directly to the original authors would end up providing the same end result since the original authors would be both allowed to and reasonably expected to distribute the derived work to their users as well.

This aligns with the reason why some people publish their work under copyleft licenses: You get my work, for free, and the deal is that if you find and fix bugs then I get to benefit from those fixes by them flowing back to me. Obviously as long as you only use them privately you are not obliged to anything, the copyleft author gives you that option, but once you publish any of this, we all share the results.

That's the spirit here and trying to argue around that with technicalities is disingenuous. That's what Copilot does since it ignores this deal.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bruce511 on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:13AM (#35420173)
I'm not sure I agree with this as a general point of view.

Speaking generally, I'm not sure that one can claim

>> The original authors tend to be the users

There are endless forks of say emacs,and I expect RMS is not s user of any of them.

Of course RMS is free to inspect the code for all of them, separate out bug fixes from features, and retro apply it to his build. But I'm not seeing anything in any license that requires a fork to "push" bug fixes to him.

>> This aligns with the reason why some people publish their work under copyleft licenses: You get my work, for free, and the deal is that if you find and fix bugs then I get to benefit from those fixes by them flowing back to me.

I think you are reading terms into the license that simply don't exist. I agree a lot of programmers -believe- this is how Free Software works, and many do push bug fixes upstream, but that's orthogonal to Free Software principles, and outside the terms of the license.

>> That's the spirit here and trying to argue around that with technicalities is disingenuous.

Licenses are matters of law, not spirit. The original post is about this "spirit". My thesis is that he, and you, are inferring responsibilities that are simply not in the license. This isn't a technicality,it goes to the very heart of Free Software.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by colonwqbang on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:42AM (#35420387)
Most people don't actually want to maintain a fork. They would prefer that their patches are mainlined.

Consider Linux. It's huge and most vendors really don't want to maintain a fully independent fork. One reason they might do it anyway, is if they could keep their patches private. But the GPL means they can't, so most just choose to upstream patches.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by tm-guimaraes on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:59AM (#35420953)
> Most people don't actually want to maintain a fork. They would prefer that their patches are mainlined.

But that's a downstream decision regarding efficiency in their developing process. That's not what free software is about, there is nothing about that in its principles nor licences.

That's just Development Process and maintenance decision, offloading patch integration to upstream, which they might or not accept depending on your changes. None of that is about Free Software. You can see similar decisions/trade-offs taking place in any org with multiple software dev teams with ownership over libs etc, regardless if it is free software or not.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by jrochkind1 on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:57AM (#35421987)
> Licenses are matters of law, not spirit.

But also, i think even the spirit of the original copyleft movement is being misunderstood. As a GP said, the spirit was about centering users, requiring developers to be responsible to _users_, in order to create the kind of society where our _use_ of technology would be unconstrained in certain ways.

It was not about anything owed to the "original" developers, it was not about developers responsibility to other developers. In original spirit, even. It was definitely not about creating a system where people could make adequate income from writing software. That was not even the spirit in which the licenses were devised.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by FrustratedMonky on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:24AM (#35423119)
It's like everyone here is a lawyer nitpicking the license as it exists today. But absolutely before the licenses existed Open Source was about those principles, to share code, to share bug fixes, to publish any improvements. So everyone would get better. To say the 'license' doesn't make this explicit it really missing the point.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by yawpitch on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:51AM (#35424593)
It’s more like everyone here is very definitely IANAL and _still_ nitpicking (and also missing the point).
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by tm-guimaraes on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:47AM (#35420861)
> That's the spirit here

not really.

All this Free Software movement started by something really similar to "right to repair", a firmware bug in a printer that was proprietary software. Free Software is about being in control of software you use. The spirit was never "contribute back to GNU", the spirit was always "if you take GNU software, you can't make it non-free". Those GNU devs at the time just wanted a good and actually free/libre OS, that would remain free no matter who distributed it.

You are using expectations of modern day devs in the world of a lot of social development thanks to Github.

You might claim that GP was using the technicalities of the licences, but you can actually check the whole FSF philosophy an you note that they align perfectly with "giving forward" not "giving back".

Free Software is about user's freedom. Not dev rights, or politeness, etc. Now obviously, some devs picked up copyleft licenses with the purpose of improving their own software from downstream changes (Linus states that is the reason he picked GPL), but that's a nice side effect, not the purpose. Which ofc, with popular social sharing platforms like github, those things gets confused.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ilyt on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:58AM (#35422002)
> All this Free Software movement started by something really similar to "right to repair", a firmware bug in a printer that was proprietary software. Free Software is about being in control of software you use. The spirit was never "contribute back to GNU", the spirit was always "if you take GNU software, you can't make it non-free". Those GNU devs at the time just wanted a good and actually free/libre OS, that would remain free no matter who distributed it.

Distinction without a difference. The end result is the same.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by nine_k on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:46AM (#35424503)
A very distinctive difference.

GPL software is a box that must be kept open, so that everybody would be able to take from it.

If you pick the box and build an altered version of it, you must keep it open, you are legally prohibited from attaching a lid to it.

There's nothing about any expectations, let alone obligations, to put anything back into the original box. Usually it's not very easy (you must follow strict standards) or even impossible (see e.g. SQLite).

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by xigoi on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:03PM (#35426143)
If you leave the box open, the original author is free to take your modification and put it into their box.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by nine_k on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:52PM (#35427195)
Good for them! As long as all the resulting boxes remain open, it's fine and in accordance with the (spirit of the) license.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by stonemetal12 on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:22AM (#35425239)
It is a pretty big distinction with different end results in practice. Look at Android, you can use the source in a "right to repair" manner but Google doesn't take patches so you can't give back even if you wanted to.

The same goes for Apple and Google's OSS browser. The source is there, but there is more or less no way to give back, and they certainly don't.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ilyt on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @10:24AM (#35440142)
> Look at Android, you can use the source in a "right to repair" manner but Google doesn't take patches so you can't give back even if you wanted to.

Well, license obliging the original author to take patches back would be weird one.

But Google could suck in any change to their own and make it better.

> The same goes for Apple and Google's OSS browser. The source is there, but there is more or less no way to give back, and they certainly don't.

That's a different problem that's a bit orthogonal to licensing and has more to do with project leadership. Like, you don't even need to have OSS license to allow users to contribute to project.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by eyko on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:19PM (#35432758)
The four freedoms[1] of free software specifically state that:

> The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Emphasis in "give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes".

1. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by tm-guimaraes on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @07:09AM (#35452177)
"giving whole community a chance to benefit from your changes" is very different from "upstreaming your changes"
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by noirscape on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:58AM (#35420944)
You'd think so, but there's also a good chunk of copyleft code that's just "here's our source code, go figure out how to deploy lol".

You can try to fork it into something workable, but that can sometimes literally mean trying to figure out what the actual deployment process is and what weird tweaks were done to the deploying device beforehand. In addition, forking those projects is also unworkable if the original has pretty much enterprise-speed development. At best you get a fork that's years out of date where the maintainer is nitpicking every PR and is burnt out enough to not make it worthwhile to merge upstream patches. At worst, you get something like Iceweasel[0] where someone just releases patches rather than a full fork (and having done that a few times, it's a pain in the neck to maintain those patches).

FOSS isn't at all inherently community-minded; it can be and can facilitate it, but it can also be used as a way to get cheap cred from the people who are naïeve enough to believe the former is the only place it applies.

[0]: "Fork" of Firefox LTS by the GNU Foundation to strip out trademarked names and logo's. It's probably one of their silliest projects in term of relevancy.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ghaff on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:55AM (#35422707)
People do release software as open source for the "street cred" (perhaps unsurprisingly given the school of thought that you don't deserve a developer job if you can't show off a GitHub repo). A lot of people also create something and figure "why not?" They may just not be interested in doing any serious community development and maintenance. There are even significant open source projects that are pretty much a closed development process.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by FrustratedMonky on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:17AM (#35422996)
Exactly. We all benefit from sharing contributions to the same code base. I use your library, you use mine, we fix each others bugs, add features, etc... The code gets better.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by JaumeGreen on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:47AM (#35423495)
> They oblige the author of a derived work to publish the changes to all users under the same terms. The original authors tend to be users. So, a license which would grant this directly to the original authors would end up providing the same end result since the original authors would be both allowed to and reasonably expected to distribute the derived work to their users as well.

I might be in the wrong, but this is not how I understand GPL [0]. Care to correct me if I'm wrong.

What I get from the license is that you have to share the code with the users of your program, not anyone else.

AFAIK you could do an Emacs fork and ask money for it. Not only that but the source code only needs to be available to the recipients of the software, not anyone else.

A company could have an upgraded version of a GPL tool and not share it with anyone outside the company. Theoretically employees might share the code outside, but I doubt they'd dared.

[0] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Co...

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by cmsj on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:49AM (#35423524)
> What I get from the license is that you have to share the code with the users of your program, not anyone else.

You're correct, but it's sort of a meaningless distinction because those users are entirely within their rights under the GPL to share that code on with anyone they want, which is why we don't really see the model of "secret GPL" you describe, in the wild.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bruce511 on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:57PM (#35429451)
I'd argue that this is exactly what you see in the wild. And it's why the AGPL license was created.

GPL code has to be shared with users who receive binaries. SAAS happily didn't shop binaries, so quite legally didn't ship source code.

AGPL redefines this in terms of "user" not "binary". That refinement completely exists to cater for unexpected use cases. No doubt new licenses (AIGPL?) will be needed to address this issue.

The whole need for Open Source protection played out with the (Apache licensed) Elastic Search. Switching to a ELv2 and SSPL license was controversial and in some ways "not open source", certainly not "free" because it limits what a user can do with the software.

So the distinction is far from meaningless and in some ways rendered GPL obsolete.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by samtho on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:57AM (#35424693)
> That's the spirit here and trying to argue around that with technicalities is disingenuous.

First, I am not a lawyer, but don't licenses exist precisely for their technicalities? This is not like a law on the books in which case we can consider the "Letter and Spirit of the law" because we know in what context in which it was written in/for. With a written license however, someone chooses to adopt a license and accepts those terms from an authorship point-of-view.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by viciousplant on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:55AM (#35420010)
Time will tell, and it's a destined trend for more devs close sourcing their code no matter what curious angle you are trying to justify large firms using AI exploiting money, and I doubt you are working for one of them.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ksec on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:30AM (#35420300)
>I'm gonna get hated on for this, but I don't think "give back" is an open source concept.

Well I guess you know why you may be hated for this already. For anyone who has surf HN since ~2010 would know or should notice the definition of open source has changed over the past 10-15 years. Giving Back and Communities are the two predominant Open Source ideals now. Along with making lots money on top of OSS code being somewhat a contentious issue to say the least.

But I want to side step the idealistic issue and think this is more of an economic issue. Where this could be attributed as a zero interest rate phenomenon. You now have developers ( especially those from US ) for most if not all of their professional life living under the money / investment were easy, comparatively speaking. And they should give back when money ( or should I say cash flow ) isn’t an issue. When $200K Total Comp were suppose to be the norm for fresh grad joining Google. And management thinking $500K is barely enough they need to work their way to $1M, while seniors developer believes if Junior were worth $200K than they are asking for $1M total comp is perfectly sane, or some other extreme where everyone in the company should earn exactly the same.

If Twitter or social media were any indication you see a lot of these ideals were completely gone from the conversation. Although this somehow started before the layoffs.

It is somewhat interesting to see the sociologic and idealogical changes with respect to economics changes. But then again, economics in itself is perhaps the largest field psychology study.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by EarlKing on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:51AM (#35420452)
Co-pilot spits back protected expressions, not novel expressions based on ideas harvested from code. It is therefore violating the licenses of numerous free and open source projects. The author is right to be pissed.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by natch on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:33AM (#35420746)
This seems to be what people imagine about it, not what it actually does, although I don’t doubt you could cherry-pick some snippet after a lot of trial and error to try to claim that it had regurgitated something verbatim. But certainly let’s see the examples.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:17AM (#35421078)
You never know if a snippet it created came from another project verbatim or not… unless you claim you know all of the code that exists?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bqmjjx0kac on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:48AM (#35422604)
That's a bit extreme. In theory, an LLM's proclivity for plagiarism could be studied by testing it with various prompts and searching its training data for its responses (maybe with some edit distance tolerance).
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:34PM (#35426818)
Except the training data is secret…
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by natch on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:08PM (#35431996)
You can search github and other open sources to find at least a likely subset of the training data though.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Thursday April 06, 2023 @08:03AM (#35467203)
You suggest doing this, by hand, for every suggestion?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by natch on Thursday April 06, 2023 @08:31PM (#35476512)
Just try it out for some code you have on github where you know yours is the only solution out there. You'll be pleasantly surprised to see that it does not suggest a verbatim copy/paste of your code or anything close to it, unless you try this with a one liner like how to do an fopen(), which would not be a good test, and would not be the only solution out there. And then seeing the result, you can adjust your theory. So, in short, I suggest simply testing your theory, not anything absurd like what you are coming up with.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:25AM (#35509438)
What would that prove? I still have no access to all the proprietary code generated from copilot, and no idea if it did copy paste or not in all those cases.

You suggest I try it twice and since it will probably not copy paste in those 2 tries, assume it never copy pastes (despite existing evidence that it does copy paste in some other cases).

What problem would this exercise solve? I can't see it.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by natch on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:08PM (#35431985)
Search tools are a thing. Grep, Google, Github, etc.

But yes, exactly, you never know if a snippet came from another project or not, so let's not assume it did without some convincing evidence.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @12:52AM (#35435238)
Why assume it didn't?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by natch on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @04:37AM (#35451102)
* * *
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:26AM (#35509441)
It has been shown that github copilot does copy paste.

The fact that you tried it a couple of times (or 10 or 20) means absolutely nothing.

1 copyright infringement is enough for a lawsuit.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by theonlybutlet on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:05AM (#35422835)
That's not the case, there's a probability it may "spit back" the protected expression. There's also a probability I, as a human "spit back" the protected expressions. This could either be by pure chance or from past learnings, reading the protected code and internalizing it as a solution, my subconscious forgetting I actually saw it elsewhere.

In Uni, students run their theses through plagiarism checkers, even if it's novel research as it naturally occurs.

As the thought experiment goes, given infinity, a monkey with a typewriter will inevitably write Shakespeares works.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by EarlKing on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:19PM (#35426488)
...except you don't need an infinite number of monkeys. It has been trained to produce protected expressions by virtue of being trained on protected expressions. The probability of it producing a protected expression at some point is 1.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by theonlybutlet on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:10PM (#35428659)
The same truth holds for you or me writing up that code.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by EarlKing on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:09PM (#35431325)
No it doesn't. My mind contains information derived from expressions I've read which I can rearrange into novel expressions. I don't regurgitate protected expressions verbatim. Co-Pilot does.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by theonlybutlet on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:32PM (#35432246)
That's exactly what co-pilot does, ask it to rearrange it if what it comes up with is the same. That's what code plagiarism checkers are for.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by sureglymop on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:58AM (#35424736)
You are correct. The problem is that the GitHub Terms of Service probably (guessing) have a clause which invalidates your license if you upload your code there. And that's exactly why you shouldn't use GitHub.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by xigoi on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:15PM (#35426423)
The terms of service explicitly say that GitHub is not allowed to use your code for commercial purposes.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by HenriTEL on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:21AM (#35420651)
> On the one hand we happily train humans on GPL code. Those humans can then write their own functions,but for trivial functions they're gonna look a lot like GPL Source.

Exactly. People are getting mad that Microsoft is making good money while the people who made all that free software available mostly did it for free (like in no money and no recognition). It can sound unfair but that's the deal. If you didn't want people or AI to learn from your code, open source was not the right option.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by mftrhu on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:35PM (#35429067)
> If you didn't want people or AI to learn from your code, open source was not the right option.

There's nothing wrong with other people using - learning and creating derivative works of - one's open-source code, provided they respect the terms of the license. It seems to me that the real issue is the fact that these licenses don't have enough teeth.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by robertlagrant on Monday April 03, 2023 @05:26AM (#35420691)
> I'm gonna get hated on for this, but I don't think "give back" is an open source concept.

You're right. It's a politeness law some people have invented.

It's also a value people have, but that's for themselves. I like contributing to OSS projects. But, as soon as it's imposed on others, and there are punishments for disobeying, it's a politeness law.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by Eisenstein on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:05AM (#35420996)
Politeness keeps society civil and sane.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by robertlagrant on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:57AM (#35421444)
Politeness laws don't. They calcify and oppress.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by felixgallo on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:33AM (#35423279)
Could you link to a politeness law on the books that you feel is oppressive?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by robertlagrant on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:21PM (#35426547)
On the books? I mean laws like "you shouldn't make money from OSS made by someone else". The context of this chat.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by felixgallo on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:30PM (#35434670)
oh, so those things are what people call "opinions", which they are completely allowed to have, just as you have yours. They aren't oppressing you, they don't expose you to penalties, you can't get thrown in jail.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by robertlagrant on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @04:10AM (#35436563)
No, not just opinions. I don't understand why you'd redefine what I'm saying, as though that invalidates the original statement. It's not exactly difficult to spot.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by felixgallo on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @11:58AM (#35456277)
I’m not redefining what you’re saying. I’m pointing out that you are exaggerating the magnitude and impact of Internet opinions by characterizing them as oppressive laws.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bombolo on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:08AM (#35421011)
> If the AI is regurgitating GPL code as-is, then that's a problem- not dissimilar to a student or employee regurgitating the same code.

Not "if". We know it does.

And since it doesn't show citations, it might be the case that you use and mistakenly end up making your entire software GPL, because of including copy pasted GPL software.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by bostik on Monday April 03, 2023 @06:38AM (#35421252)
I would say that open source as a movement sprung up from the principles of early netiquette[0]. Which themselves were built on the foundations of sharing your knowledge with your peers.

Whether you were trawling Usenet or just a presence in your local BBS scene, "teach it forward" was always a core concept. Still is. It's difficult to pay back to the person who taught you something valuable, so you can instead pay it forward by teaching the lessons - along with your own additions - to the later newcomers.

Of course the Eternal September changed the landscape. And now we can't have nice things.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_technology#Netiqu...

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by detourdog on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:14AM (#35421596)
I think the big move to formalization of GNU was that no free compilers for C existed. RS rightly saw this as a problem and did what he thought was needed to get a universal free c compiler.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by gampleman on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:42AM (#35421839)
From the MIT license:

> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

Does GPT spit out the copyright notice when it regurgitates my code?

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by Uvix on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:35AM (#35422443)
Is GPT spitting out “substantial portions” of your code?
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by WorldMaker on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:30PM (#35428998)
It might. The ethical dilemma here seems to be:

1) We don't know when/if GPT will. GPT in its current form can't seem to guarantee safety (either from "substantial" verbatim snippets or from complex "hallucinations" of random pachinko output).

2) GPT doesn't know when/if it has. GPT in its current form likely cannot know this. (In part, because it doesn't really "know" anything, that's too anthropological a word for what is still mostly just a casino full of pachinko machines.)

3) Define "substantial portions" in a way that a jury of your peers can understand it in a court of law.

4) Can you define "substantial portions" again, only this time in code as guide rails for something like GPT? "Substantial portions" is barely a human term designed for human lawyers and courts. There's a fascinating challenge here on quantifying it.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by lenkite on Monday April 03, 2023 @07:50AM (#35421912)
IMHO, just like there was a robots.txt file made for the web, there needs to be a NOAI.txt for git repos. Sorry, this repo does not permit you to ingest the code for a learning model. Seems completely reasonable.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by xigoi on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:24PM (#35426604)
That wouldn't work. robots.txt is not enforceable.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by welshwelsh on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:17PM (#35427637)
What would be the point of that?

If we were somehow able to prevent AI models from ingesting a codebase, that would mean everyone else who wants to produce similar code would have to re-invent the wheel, wasting their time repeating work that has already been done.

All because... the person who did it first wants attribution? They want their name to be included in some credits.txt file that nobody will ever read? That's ridiculous.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by mftrhu on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:31PM (#35429020)
> All because... the person who did it first wants attribution? They want their name to be included in some credits.txt file that nobody will ever read?

Yes, and yes. Those would be the terms that person publishes their code under. If you can't agree to those terms - maybe because including a single name in a credits.txt file that no-one reads is somehow too onerous for your process - then you are always free to re-implement that code on your own.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by starkd on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:45AM (#35423462)
Perhaps I'm out of the loop on this, but I always thought the concept of open source was primarily about the opportunity for personal professional development. The ability for someone not connected with a corporation to stay relevant and continuously update his skills in away that was not dependent on proprietary systems. That is a huge asset, not only for oneself but also for the the world.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by galleywest200 on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:02AM (#35423716)
That may be a benefit, but the primary concept of open source is that its open source.
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by taink on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:57AM (#35423644)
I agree that copyleft is more about "giving forward", and I think it's a confusion a lot of people make. Reading through the thread, I get the impression that some think as soon as one "distributes" the licensed material, original authors should get a copy. I'm extrapolating of course, but even then I feel some people would agree with that statement.

GPL, for instance, merely states that distributed sources or patches "based on" the program should be "conveyed" under the same terms. In other words, anyone who gets their hands on it will do so under the same license.

If anything, I would be worried that GitHub trained itself on publicly-available but not clearly licensed code, because then it would have no license to "use" it in any way[0]. GPL provides such a right, so there is no problem there. It would be even more worrying if the not clearly licensed code was in a private repository but I think I remember reading that private repositories were not included in the training data.

However, would you consider a black box program, of which the output can consistently produce verbatim or at the very least slightly modified copies of code from GPL code to be transformative? The problem does not lie in how the code is distributed but in how transformative the distributed code is. Not only does the same apply to any program besides AI-powered software, it applies to humans[1].

Given how unpredictable the output of an AI is, one should not be able to train itself on GPL code if it cannot reliably guarantee it will not produce infringing code.

[0]: https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t... (https://archive.ph/susi0#4-license-grant-to-us)

[1]: One such example would be how Microsoft employees allegedly prevented themselves from reading refterm source code, cf. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10462#issuecomm...

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ye-olde-sysrq on Monday April 03, 2023 @10:22AM (#35424047)
I wonder if the GPLv4 will be coming out soon with an anti-AI-training clause (unless your output model and its outputs are also GPLv4, of course).
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by cxr on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:29AM (#35425405)
People keep bringing this up. It's not as straightforward as a clause that says "you can't use this to train AI" (which is what I suspect many people think).

Licensing operates on a continuum of permissiveness. They can only relax the restrictions that you as a creator are given by default. You can't write a copyright license that adds them. You could write a legal instrument that compels and prohibits certain behavior(s), but at that point you're talking about a contract. (And there's no way to coerce anyone to agree with the contract.)

Harry Potter has even more restrictions than the GPL or any other open source license. It's "All Rights Reserved—it enjoys the maximum protections that a work can. And yet it would still be possible feed it into an AI model, even if all of Rowling, Bloomsbury, and Scholastic didn't want you to. They don't get a say in that. Nor do open source software developers in their works which selectively abandon some of the protections that Rowling reserves for herself and her business partners.

The only real viable path to achieve this using an IP license alone would be a React PATENTS-like termination clause—if your company engages in any kind of AI training that uses this project as an input, then your license to make copies (including distributing modified copies) under the ordinary terms are revoked, along with revoking permission for a huge swathe of other free/open source software owned by a bunch of other signatories, too. This is, of course, contingent upon the ability to freely copy and modify a given set of works being appealing enough to get people to abstain from the lure of building AI models and offering services based on them.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by ye-olde-sysrq on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:33PM (#35430878)
I amend my wondering to the prepend the GPL thing with "I wonder how long it will take disney et al to make it illegal to train AI with their stuff" which then opens that door to the GPL
Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by EthanHeilman on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:07AM (#35424949)
It would be interesting to have Free Software License that requires that any thing which ingests the source code must be Free Software running on Free Hardware. If you train a model on such inputs, your model would need to be Free software and all the hardware the model runs on would need to be Free Hardware. This would create a massive incentivize to either not use such software in your model or to use Free Software and Free Hardware.

Taken to its logical conclusion, you could add the notion of Free Humans are legally bound to only produce Free Ideas. One could imagine this functioning like sort of monastic vow of charity or chastity. "Vow of silence on producing anything which is not Free (as in freedom)."

Would you take such a vow if offered 100,000 USD/year for the rest of your life (adjusted for inflation)? I would.

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by b3morales on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:09PM (#35426300)
This idea ("make a stronger license") has come up in previous discussions of Copilot as well[0].

The problem is that the Copilot project doesn't claim to be abiding by the license(s) of the ingested code. The reply to licensing concerns was that licensing doesn't apply to their use. So unfortunately they would just claim they could ignore your hypothetical Free³ license as well.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34277352

Re:Saying Goodbye to GitHub – Ersei 'N Stuff by EthanHeilman on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:27PM (#35427826)
> The problem is that the Copilot project doesn't claim to be abiding by the license(s) of the ingested code. The reply to licensing concerns was that licensing doesn't apply to their use.

I think github is largely correct in their view on licenses. However I would argue that you could create a stronger legal binding than say a GPL-3 license. For instance you could require and enforce that anyone that wishes to read the repo must sign a legal contract or EULA: "By decrypting this git repo you are agreeing to the following licenses, restrictions, contractual obligations, ..."