They all think they will move to rural community to live simpler, more selfsufficient life among other people, casualy share tips on permaculture with their neighbors and what not.
You might get lucky to find similar minded people, but at the end newcomers are just those ridiculus city folks that come to the town, talking weird stuff, while local hold blue colar jobs in nearby town or hustling income as helping hands whenever they can. Most people do not chose rural places, they just don't have any other choice. Also rural poverty is a thing.
By far, the mid-sized city is the best of both worlds.
When I lived in LA, I absolutely felt like I was living in a dystopian parody of a progressive city. When I lived in small towns, I absolutely was annoyed that everyone knew my relatives and thought we were friends or something because of that. Zero anonymity.
But Minneapolis has historically been good, though it's changed a lot since George Floyd. Now we live in a smallish suburb and get all the amenities without the claustrophobic small town bullshit.
OP, just try moving to a distant suburb, and embrace the wisdom of middle age.
A smallish city will provide 90+% of what you'd get out of a big city without the dystopian backdrop.
I grew up in a small town, moved to a big city, then moved to a smaller city during COVID, with the intent of it being temporary until things go back to normal, and now I don't want to go back. Just as much to do, with less traffic, lower cost, and it feels a lot safer to walk around.
I bought a pretty damn big house (comparative to what I had in the Bay Area). I'm taking more vacations. The people are nicer than SF Bay Area, you can go places (restaurants on a weekend, for example!) without having to wait in long lines or park a million miles away. You can get tickets to concerts without having to be the FIRST person on Ticketmaster the moment they become available. You can get to nature a lot faster (I went skiing a couple months ago and it was bonkers how there were no lines or waiting for anything). Everything just feels easier, like you get to enjoy everything 20% more than you can in a metropolis where everything feels like a hassle and you've got people crawling on you like roaches.
This is something to be very careful about. If you aren't religious -- or, actually, if you aren't evangelical protestant or maybe in some places catholic -- there are many, many rural communities where you will be a de facto outsider. There are also many rural communities where this isn't true. You just have to be aware of this when deciding where to move.
In the end, I feel our community has embraced us. I coach a girl's field sport that now 50% of all school age girls participate in. When we "go to town" everyone knows me and calls me coach. I feel I have been able to show a small rural community that atheist, liberal, immigrants are not here to destroy America as many suspected we might. They have showed me conservatives can act with compassion and stunningly (to me at least) that many laws that make perfect sense in a city make absolutely no sense in the country.
Do you even know that they track your gait? and face? wherever you go?
(of course they don't even need to since you carry a tracking device in your pocket)
It's all relative. I grew up in York County and lived in Harrisburg for a couple of years. Philly's tech scene is fucking great by comparison. Now that tech is so remote-heavy, you've got access to national/global salaries, while having comparably affordable housing, more methods of public transit than any other city in America (coverage is admittedly a different story), a nearby airport, the rail corridor, and comparably sane weather, aside from the subtropical summers.
While I work from home now, for years I worked in a historic 19th century bank building above a bar in a walkable neighborhood full of restaurants, art galleries, parks, and boutiques. My visits to the Bay Area remind me of the suburbs... sure, pay is way higher there, but you're driving to a corporate park that, from the outside, might as well be Exton PA or Springfield Ohio or something. And everything else is so far away.
If a show comes through town and I miss tickets, I can hop on a train (or drive) to New York or Baltimore or DC or Boston.
Everything has its pluses and minuses. Because of the Philly tech environment, I bought an old theater on a hill by the river that I live above, and during renovation found thousands of 18th century revolutionary war era artifacts, which became a whole side quest (and a 27 episode podcast to boot). I think it would be rare to be able to do something similar in a city with a more "rich" tech environment.
I'm sure there are people who are perfectly content with their tech job in Omaha, or Austin, or Salt Lake City, or San Jose, and there are also people (like OP) who aren't content with what they have either. Heck, I was doing "fine" in York for a while.
Well sure, 1 > 0. The global salary thing seems to be moot. I hardly see any international postings. I assume the salary would be even lower too.
In terms of actual dependence, I feel equally self-sufficient in both places. Rural people massively under-estimate their dependence on global economic systems and particularly three things. First, the regular weekly flow of gasoline and diesel and various finished goods. Second, the regular monthly flow of social security checks. Third, tax dollars from major metros to fund schools. At least where I lived our school system was almost completely funded by state tax dollars that were re-appropriated from suburban and urban districts; the local tax base accounted to something like something like one tenth of the district's education budget.) These dependencies exist in cities as well, of course, but there doesn't seem to be any confusion about that fact in cities.
In many rural areas, you have kids as young as 10 hunting (supervised, or supposed to be), fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc.
Really, location foent matter that much. It's the parenting style and what constraints the local culture places on them.
> hunting supervised
So not independent. At all.
> fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc.
For a ten year old, all of those things can be done in a city FAR, FAR easier in a city than in a rural area. Even exploring the woods, in many cities, can be done by a ten year old with a commuter rail train pass and a bike.
The crucial question when you are in a rural area is: with who?
> riding their bike places
You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible.
Again, it's totally possible. But if you are not intentional, your kids will not, by default, be able to bike to their friend's place or a common middle ground. If they have to bike ten miles to meet up with a friend, they're going to end up connected to a car and spending most of their time online.
Go back and re-read. Not everyone follows the rules.
"But with who?"
Friends within a couple miles, siblings, etc.
"You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible."
Yes, tell me my life experiences. Now stop trolling. It is literally possible and people do bike and walk places miles away. Don't believe me? Go look at the Amish.
Which may or may not exist. Again, you have to be more intentional.
I am not trolling you. I am giving the parent reasonable advice. Calm down.
Parents in cities have been arrested for letting their 10 year old kids play in the public manicured park unsupervised. Google "Free Range Parenting" as a city thing.
There is no way to compare the independence and freedom to play and roam of a country kid with a city kid.
We moved to the country precisely because we felt is would have been ludicrously dangerous to let our 8 year old wander the streets of Philadelphia unsupervised. There was no chance in hell we would allow her to hop on an Amtrek to go hunting for frogs in some creek.
Okay. I googled it. I'm seeing articles about parents being arrested for this sort of thing in places like Blairsville, Georgia (pop. 526) and Killingly, Connecticut. Not exactly massive cities...
If cities arrested kids for waling or biking or being on the subway alone, no one would be able to make it to school in the morning.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-ran...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/16/...
Here is a counter arguments against your school point:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/single-dad-barred-from-sending...
Sure, we had to drive to more play dates and the closest kids who are actually our neighbors live almost a mile away. However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. These kids help manage active herds and flocks.
Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted.
I don't get your social security check point/dig though. Do you believe there are somehow fewer recipients of such services in cities? I personally know a guy who refuses his social security on principle.
While I know rural schools can have funding issues, I know our public schools are well funded and we don't end up getting our per-student fair share of state funding as our system is well capitalized. As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.
> However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested.
This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time. In many cities schools even hand out free/subsidized transit tickets.
Kids getting arrested for walking or biking alone in a city is rare. Also, the stories that make it to HN's front page are almost always about rural communities or sparse suburbs not near a major metro. The last one happened in a town in rural Connecticut. In Reason's archive of free range parenting articles, I cannot find a single story about an arrest in a city. All of those arrests happen in either rural or suburban communities.
OP: you are more likely to be arrested for letting your child wander around alone in a suburb or rural area than in a dense city.
> Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted.
Again, I am giving OP advice.
If OP moving to a rural area so that he is not dependent on modern life, he's most likely in for a rude awakening.
Everyone understands that city dwellers are dependent on others. Many city folk move to the country thinking they will be independent, not realizing that they will still be dependent on others and on society.
> school funding
Very state dependent.
Again, I am giving OP advice.
If he's in a state where this is true -- and there are many where it's true -- his kid's school quality will depend on state funding formulas. Raising local taxes to pay for schools if that formula changes will be very difficult. State level politics may have pragmatic impacts on your life in a way that doesn't happen in a city that can insulate itself from statehouse politics. You're often trading city counsel politics for statehouse politics. Not always. Often. Something to be aware of -- if you're moving to a rural area to escape the effects that politics can have on your life, it aint gonna happen unless you go full off grid and home school. Where there are people and services, there is politics.
> As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.
Another ignorant assumption about cities.
Most of the best best-ranked public schools in the country are located in cities [1].
If OP wants to provide a best-in-class education, that's possible in cities by getting into the right public magnets. And in every city there are excellent but not top-x-in-the-world public schools that are easier to get into.
It's also possible in rural areas, but usually requires out-of-school enrichment. Which can be easier and more accessible than getting into great magnets for many folks! Again, not digging rural areas, giving OP actionable advice.
Some rural schools are terrible and some are excellent. Similarly, some city schools are terrible, and some are truly excellent. OP: anyone who tells you otherwise about either rural or urban schools is ignorant.
I am not competing with you about urban vs rural. These posts are not directed at you. I am providing OP with accurate advice about how to manage a transition. That involves pointing out the things that can go wrong and how to address them, not fixating on the things that come easily.
[1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-...
I have lived in NYC, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Toronto, London, Tampa, and San Francisco. The downtown parts, not their burbs. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion about city living.
This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time.
Some places, sure. Others you can get arrested for that:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/single-dad-barred-from-sending...
Sure there are great public schools, but... the great ones are generally competitive admissions drawing from wide areas. The number 1 school being:
Students from Fairfax, Arlington, Loudoun, and Prince William counties and from the Cities of Fairfax and Falls Church are eligible for admission.[32] Students must be enrolled in Algebra 1 or a higher level math class in 8th grade and have a minimum GPA of 3.5 to be eligible
While that school might technically qualify as public, the admissions process looks like a private school to me.
When I say "public school", I'm talking about the school that your kid is going to go to "by default" outside of any kind of lottery system. I can assure you that in Philly that meant craptacular. Despite the reputation of Masterman the only Philly school in your top 150. Their enrolment is hyper competitive. Masterman's acceptance rate is 3% of applicants making it more selective than Harvard University.
I do agree that rural schools are not universally great or even good. Ours happens to be and we selected for that. I would say that understanding the community's expectations for post graduation are key. If the community does not expect the vast majority of high school graduate to go to 4 year college then the local school system priorities are likely to align with that expectation and that is important to understand.
I understand we are all attempting to help the OP. You were the one that introduced the spurious points about resource dependencies, the flow of social security checks and reallocation of school funding. All these seem to having nothing to do with city vs urban living and in my opinion apply more to city living than rural living. In fact New York State had to be sued to properly fund NYC public schools.
Anonymous, sure. But how can anyone be self sufficient in a city? Do you have a large garden? Rainwater tanks? The tools and workspace to do your own plumbing, construction? Do you have solar panels and batteries?
If the utilities all shut down and the grocery stores all closed, everyone in a city would die or flee. It is impossible to be self-sufficient in a city.
Glad you asked! Let's go over your questions.
>Do you have a large garden? Rainwater tanks?
I've got space on my roofs for a garden - I own a three story building that has 100% lot coverage (something you can still afford to buy in Philadelphia) I could easily install rainwater tanks indoors (since our rainspouts travel inside our house to drain into the sewer line) or outdoors - but I walk to the produce merchant and use one of the longest-operating municipal water supplies in the country. Currently we just have herbs and cherry tomatoes in our roof garden.
>The tools and workspace to do your own plumbing, construction?
As a matter of fact yes. This is the third home I've owned. First one was built in 1905 in the suburbs and was a gut job. Everyone should have a circular saw and an 18v cordless drill, but I've also got plumbing supplies and electrical supplies. We hired contractors for this place because it was a complete gut job (down to three walls, and we had to install steel structure) but we generally don't have to call contractors unless we're short on time. Our second house was built in the 90s and didn't need much work, but since we learned on our first house, we updated the floors (we have tools for tiling too) and cabinets - largely pre-built. We tried something more raw on the first home, and it nearly caused my wife and I to divorce. Why bother when mass manufacture has solved the problem? Even still, I do tend to build my own desks/shelves.
And, being in a city designed for horses, if I'm missing tools, I walk to the hardware store. I've got a van, if I need bigger things than I can carry. And if I didn't have a van, I could take transit (or a taxi or rideshare) to the big box store, rent a truck from Home Depot, and use that to transport big goods.
>Do you have solar panels and batteries?
I've got a long flat roof, and a neighbor who sells solar. We've opted instead for a green roof, but that's sort of a phase three thing for the building. Talking about self-sufficiency while ignoring the benefits of society, then simultaneously crowing about solar panels seems a little bit like moving the goalposts in terms of what counts as self-sufficient.
>If the utilities all shut down and the grocery stores all closed, everyone in a city would die or flee.
That's a big if for a city, but a reality in rural communities. In my lifetime, towns in my country have been abandoned. WalMart moves in, and Main Street is boarded up in a matter of years. Industry gets offshored, and people who can afford to will flee. "Ghost towns" are an attraction across America.
The closest thing to a ghost city in my country was Detroit in the early 2000s. Even cities destroyed in wars are rebuilt more often than they aren't.
>It is impossible to be self-sufficient in a city.
Context matters. If you want to talk about bronze age self-sufficiency, I'm sure it's a great thought experiment. There's an efficiency modifier to self-sufficiency in urban environments, and as evidenced by placed occupied for multiple millennia such as London, Constantinople, Beijing, or even cities like Berlin and Baghdad and Cairo, even when things get real bad, cities are much more likely to recover.
But then I lived most of my life in big cities, and for me moving in a rural community a few steps from the forest where I can walk between two meetings definitely solved many problems. Being free of all the stress of city life and connecting to nature really helped with emotional work and gaining perspective. I don't regret my 20's but I'm glad I found calm and happiness. Maybe in a few years I will have sufficiently recharged to be able to move back in the city.
Also I don't know about Philadelphia but in most cities I lived parks were small and sterile and real nature was not easily accessible.
Oh yes, Philadelphia's got parks: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/philadelph...
Want to get lost in nature? Fairmount Park goes on and on. You can drive about an hour to the Poconos if you want even better isolation in nature.
We've got a whole pile of National Parks in the city, too. Obviously not the scale of Yellowstone, Yosemite et al, but usually very well maintained, and stocked with National Park Rangers, who, no matter the national park I've been in, are hands down some of the best human beings I've interacted with.
There are definitely the more small/sterile neighborhood parks like you described, but the city has also had five public squares designed into its original 17th century plan, and they've somehow survived into the 21st century, mostly for the better. And then there's the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, cutting a 45 degree slice through the grid system for a tree-lined, walkable space running between the world class Philadelphia Museum of Art and our second-empire-style City Hall, which probably only still exists because in the early 20th century, the city ran out of money before they could demolish it.
I used to live in Downingtown, three minutes' walk from the train, and about 30 seconds walk from a sprawling rails-to-trails park system organized around the local creek. There were definitely benefits to that (didn't have to wear high-viz during hunting season) but in my situation, I came to prefer a more urban home base. It's funny because we initially moved there from central PA, and it felt kind of cute and even a little bit hip. Lived in Philly proper for a few years before coming back to our Downingtown house for a couple years. Now, it felt like I was in the sticks, man. Like, I knew what "the middle of nowhere" really was, and this wasn't it, but it still felt like I was on the edge of civilization by comparison, and not necessarily in a way I appreciated. Now we're back in the city.
Glad you've got a good situation, and context from previous, very-different situations too! Ultimately, the key is to adapt to your surroundings and make the most of what you've got. And if you're fortunate enough to have the option to change things up, well that's just a bonus.
Stop watching so much news, dude. Everything has always been terrible. The reality is, you have more access to more information than ever before in human history, and it's all pushed by companies trying to suck you in with more engagement, largely by inducing excessive emotional reaction to things outside of your control (and in many ways, things that have no actual bearing on your life)
Maybe I'm spoiled for parks in Philadelphia, but it shouldn't be that hard to get to nature from any city. I also go on urban hikes to clear my head.
The problems you describe won't be solved by a move to a small village. You need to ween yourself off the news you read. I'm not suggesting becoming a luddite, but stop gorging.