In terms of actual dependence, I feel equally self-sufficient in both places. Rural people massively under-estimate their dependence on global economic systems and particularly three things. First, the regular weekly flow of gasoline and diesel and various finished goods. Second, the regular monthly flow of social security checks. Third, tax dollars from major metros to fund schools. At least where I lived our school system was almost completely funded by state tax dollars that were re-appropriated from suburban and urban districts; the local tax base accounted to something like something like one tenth of the district's education budget.) These dependencies exist in cities as well, of course, but there doesn't seem to be any confusion about that fact in cities.
In many rural areas, you have kids as young as 10 hunting (supervised, or supposed to be), fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc.
Really, location foent matter that much. It's the parenting style and what constraints the local culture places on them.
> hunting supervised
So not independent. At all.
> fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc.
For a ten year old, all of those things can be done in a city FAR, FAR easier in a city than in a rural area. Even exploring the woods, in many cities, can be done by a ten year old with a commuter rail train pass and a bike.
The crucial question when you are in a rural area is: with who?
> riding their bike places
You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible.
Again, it's totally possible. But if you are not intentional, your kids will not, by default, be able to bike to their friend's place or a common middle ground. If they have to bike ten miles to meet up with a friend, they're going to end up connected to a car and spending most of their time online.
Go back and re-read. Not everyone follows the rules.
"But with who?"
Friends within a couple miles, siblings, etc.
"You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible."
Yes, tell me my life experiences. Now stop trolling. It is literally possible and people do bike and walk places miles away. Don't believe me? Go look at the Amish.
Which may or may not exist. Again, you have to be more intentional.
I am not trolling you. I am giving the parent reasonable advice. Calm down.
Parents in cities have been arrested for letting their 10 year old kids play in the public manicured park unsupervised. Google "Free Range Parenting" as a city thing.
There is no way to compare the independence and freedom to play and roam of a country kid with a city kid.
We moved to the country precisely because we felt is would have been ludicrously dangerous to let our 8 year old wander the streets of Philadelphia unsupervised. There was no chance in hell we would allow her to hop on an Amtrek to go hunting for frogs in some creek.
Okay. I googled it. I'm seeing articles about parents being arrested for this sort of thing in places like Blairsville, Georgia (pop. 526) and Killingly, Connecticut. Not exactly massive cities...
If cities arrested kids for waling or biking or being on the subway alone, no one would be able to make it to school in the morning.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/living/feat-maryland-free-ran...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/09/05/mom...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/16/...
Here is a counter arguments against your school point:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/single-dad-barred-from-sending...
Sure, we had to drive to more play dates and the closest kids who are actually our neighbors live almost a mile away. However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. These kids help manage active herds and flocks.
Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted.
I don't get your social security check point/dig though. Do you believe there are somehow fewer recipients of such services in cities? I personally know a guy who refuses his social security on principle.
While I know rural schools can have funding issues, I know our public schools are well funded and we don't end up getting our per-student fair share of state funding as our system is well capitalized. As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.
> However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested.
This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time. In many cities schools even hand out free/subsidized transit tickets.
Kids getting arrested for walking or biking alone in a city is rare. Also, the stories that make it to HN's front page are almost always about rural communities or sparse suburbs not near a major metro. The last one happened in a town in rural Connecticut. In Reason's archive of free range parenting articles, I cannot find a single story about an arrest in a city. All of those arrests happen in either rural or suburban communities.
OP: you are more likely to be arrested for letting your child wander around alone in a suburb or rural area than in a dense city.
> Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted.
Again, I am giving OP advice.
If OP moving to a rural area so that he is not dependent on modern life, he's most likely in for a rude awakening.
Everyone understands that city dwellers are dependent on others. Many city folk move to the country thinking they will be independent, not realizing that they will still be dependent on others and on society.
> school funding
Very state dependent.
Again, I am giving OP advice.
If he's in a state where this is true -- and there are many where it's true -- his kid's school quality will depend on state funding formulas. Raising local taxes to pay for schools if that formula changes will be very difficult. State level politics may have pragmatic impacts on your life in a way that doesn't happen in a city that can insulate itself from statehouse politics. You're often trading city counsel politics for statehouse politics. Not always. Often. Something to be aware of -- if you're moving to a rural area to escape the effects that politics can have on your life, it aint gonna happen unless you go full off grid and home school. Where there are people and services, there is politics.
> As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.
Another ignorant assumption about cities.
Most of the best best-ranked public schools in the country are located in cities [1].
If OP wants to provide a best-in-class education, that's possible in cities by getting into the right public magnets. And in every city there are excellent but not top-x-in-the-world public schools that are easier to get into.
It's also possible in rural areas, but usually requires out-of-school enrichment. Which can be easier and more accessible than getting into great magnets for many folks! Again, not digging rural areas, giving OP actionable advice.
Some rural schools are terrible and some are excellent. Similarly, some city schools are terrible, and some are truly excellent. OP: anyone who tells you otherwise about either rural or urban schools is ignorant.
I am not competing with you about urban vs rural. These posts are not directed at you. I am providing OP with accurate advice about how to manage a transition. That involves pointing out the things that can go wrong and how to address them, not fixating on the things that come easily.
[1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-...
I have lived in NYC, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Toronto, London, Tampa, and San Francisco. The downtown parts, not their burbs. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion about city living.
This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time.
Some places, sure. Others you can get arrested for that:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/single-dad-barred-from-sending...
Sure there are great public schools, but... the great ones are generally competitive admissions drawing from wide areas. The number 1 school being:
Students from Fairfax, Arlington, Loudoun, and Prince William counties and from the Cities of Fairfax and Falls Church are eligible for admission.[32] Students must be enrolled in Algebra 1 or a higher level math class in 8th grade and have a minimum GPA of 3.5 to be eligible
While that school might technically qualify as public, the admissions process looks like a private school to me.
When I say "public school", I'm talking about the school that your kid is going to go to "by default" outside of any kind of lottery system. I can assure you that in Philly that meant craptacular. Despite the reputation of Masterman the only Philly school in your top 150. Their enrolment is hyper competitive. Masterman's acceptance rate is 3% of applicants making it more selective than Harvard University.
I do agree that rural schools are not universally great or even good. Ours happens to be and we selected for that. I would say that understanding the community's expectations for post graduation are key. If the community does not expect the vast majority of high school graduate to go to 4 year college then the local school system priorities are likely to align with that expectation and that is important to understand.
I understand we are all attempting to help the OP. You were the one that introduced the spurious points about resource dependencies, the flow of social security checks and reallocation of school funding. All these seem to having nothing to do with city vs urban living and in my opinion apply more to city living than rural living. In fact New York State had to be sued to properly fund NYC public schools.