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Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by cyclecount on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:01AM (#35070634)
This line of thinking comes up often on HN but it ignores the central reason for governments to enact borders, a rather modern invention. Governments (at the behest of businesses) enforce borders so that labor cannot effectively organise. A border exists often for workers only, but is mostly a legal fiction that corporations can easily navigate.

The most common example for the Americans reading this is NAFTA, which makes workers in Detroit compete with workers in Mexico (suppressing wages in both location) while allowing the auto manufacturing companies to treat all of North America as one market. Toyota can move their plants around the region somewhat freely; can someone in Mexico freely move to the midwest?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by boh on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:35AM (#35071140)
It's really bizarre that state sovereignty is just considered a business practice. No it's not a "modern invention" to "enact" borders. Nor does labor organizing have anything to do with its enforcement. Corporate-centric culture doesn't do well in explaining the world. I'd suggest a less narrow viewpoint.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vkou on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:33PM (#35072038)
It's a modern (a 'temporary measure' enacted in WW1) invention to enact a passport-controlled system of travel and residency across the entire world.

Border control prior to it was more focused on customs taxes, and in some countries, keeping undesirable races/religions out.

We have decided the latter is wrong, so instead of directly banning, say, Chinese or Jewish immigration, we replaced it with quotas on country of birth/origin.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by sgjohnson on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:55PM (#35072331)
We can go one step further and also say that the entire system of social welfare is a post-WW2 invention.

Before WW2 the state only helped those who couldn’t help themselves. Now the state just fucks everyone.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by zamfi on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:38PM (#35072976)
> Before WW2 the state only helped those who couldn’t help themselves

Not...really? Unless by "state" you are broadly including the church and other philanthropy.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vkou on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:03PM (#35073311)
> Before WW2 the state only helped those who couldn’t help themselves.

Through much of human history, the state largely 'helped' the aristocracy maintain a monopoly on wealth and power, through frequent applications of violence against their political enemies. In fact, in ~all non-democratic, and in many democratic societies, the state and the aristocracy - and thus, their interests, are often indistinguishable.

But either way, what does any of that have to do with passport controls?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by ncpa-cpl on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:05PM (#35074048)
> It's a modern (a 'temporary measure' enacted in WW1) invention to enact a passport-controlled system of travel and residency across the entire world.

I wonder if the same will happen to online travel pre-entry-authorizations.

During Covid many countries implemented pre-entry-authorizations, similar to US ESTA or Canadian ETA.

Even if the Covid emergency state has been over, some countries that didn't have this forms before, still require them for travel.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vkou on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @06:33PM (#35076249)
That's just an implementation detail. Before COVID, some countries would hand out various visitor visas to most travelers at the border, some require arranging them in advance, almost all differ in their requirements based which country's passport you hold, and based on which kind of reciprocity agreements they have with their counterpart.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by shkkmo on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:01PM (#35072414)
While borders have a long history, checking passports at borders is indeed a "modern invention" and controlling emigration was explicitly part of the motivation for its adoption and why "being issued a passport" isn't considered a human right.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by boh on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:21PM (#35072713)
It isn't. Free movement of people hasn't been a thing since the invention of civilization. You needed seals/papers to get in/out of city-states, duchies etc. They reference passport-like paperwork in the bible. I know history is boring, but it doesn't hurt to try it sometime.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by notch898a on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:09PM (#35072532)
I've crossed into Mexico many times and not once have they asked for an identity document. You find out what a piece of cattle you are when you enter the US, though.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:08PM (#35073367)
Try that with Canada.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:42AM (#35071217)
> The most common example for the Americans reading this is NAFTA, which makes workers in Detroit compete with workers in Mexico (suppressing wages in both location)

And Canada, who's planning to give amnesty and permanent residency to half a million illegal migrants in the coming year. [0]

[0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/immigration-ministry...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by celeritascelery on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:13AM (#35070810)
> The most common example for the Americans reading this is NAFTA, which makes workers in Detroit compete with workers in Mexico (suppressing wages in both location)

I don’t understand how Supply side wage competition would be alleviated by allowing workers to move freely between countries. It seems like it could potentially make it worse for higher wage regions of the world?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fallingknife on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:08PM (#35071643)
It would do exactly that. We run 2 separate immigration systems in the US. One very restrictive system for high paying jobs and one very permissive for low paying jobs. The latter is technically illegal but tolerated. It can't be legal, because then there would be nothing stopping those immigrants from eventually getting the high paying jobs.

This dual system protects the upper class from wage competition while allowing it for the lower classes, ensuring that the upper class benefits both from this protection and also the lowered living expenses provided by cheap labor from the lower classes. All arguments that somehow economic laws don't apply and immigration doesn't lower wages come from members of the upper class who want to preserve this system that benefits them.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:04AM (#35070675)
For a migratory species it is literally inhuman to erect a border. Borders should be jurisdictional boundaries but should be permeable like the states in the US. The rest of the tribalism BS is just that.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by Eumenes on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:41AM (#35071215)
TIL humans are birds
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by kelseyfrog on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:53AM (#35071406)
Behold! I've brought you a man
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vorpalhex on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:22AM (#35070924)
Humans stopped being migratory about 12,000 years ago.

You probably don't want criminals to freely move into your country. You probably want a country that gets funded by taxes (both short term and long term).

No country in the world maintains open borders. Everytime there has been mass unorganized migration it has been a humanitarian disaster.

Platitudes only work on paper.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by candiddevmike on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:36AM (#35071148)
All of that already happens without open borders, it just costs us more money to maintain.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by gameman144 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:47AM (#35071296)
The rates are vastly different though,no? If I have a leaky faucet, it seems strange to say "This faucet is useless: the water is getting through anyway, and this way I'm having to pay for new gaskets!"
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by candiddevmike on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:48AM (#35071322)
I don't think your example is valid because we're not talking about water, we're talking about humans who are choosing to leave their country for a better place. Pursuit of happiness and all that jazz. I guess my opinion is being born in a place like the US shouldn't be some kind of privilege, and instead we should strive for the US to be a bastion for human dignity.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by gameman144 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:26PM (#35071935)
> we're talking about humans who are choosing to leave their country for a better place.

What makes the US a better place? What keeps other countries from being a better place?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:52PM (#35073171)
The constitution and bill of rights and the effective government the founding fathers created that ensures the continuation of those law bodies.

The lack of those blessings from the past is what prevents others. It’s no fault of the people who live here or there today for the situation we are in. If George Washington had accepted a crown when offered we would be just as screwed up.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by gameman144 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:15PM (#35073444)
> The lack of those blessings from the past is what prevents others.

I think this strongly discounts the agency of individuals. In our time these are certainly blessings, but they had to be fought for by their contemporaries.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:05PM (#35074040)
It’s true, but the platform and framework of that fight is what has kept it stable over time. That is what we inherited. It’s also very fragile, and that’s where the contemporary fight happens to preserve it. But without the framework, the fight is a unstable and degenerates quickly into a pretty gnarly state. That’s why the founders struggled so hard - their writings at the time on these very subjects are profound and helpful in framing how lucky we are, but also how typical our problems are in history.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vorpalhex on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:55AM (#35071436)
So then work on making other countries as good as the US, not by cramming every person into the US.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vharuck on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:45AM (#35071267)
I don't think your points hold up against the example of state borders.

Criminals move between states, but it's not a huge problem. The states can share information and allow joint action. It may require more effort to set up between nations, but it's a common thing today.

Taxes work fine. If you're a resident of a state, you pay income tax to that state. So we obviously know how to find out residency.

>Everytime there has been mass unorganized migration it has been a humanitarian disaster.

If borders were to become easily crossable (not necessarily non-existent, but just a checkpoint to count incoming/outgoing and stop smugglers) in a day, then the next day would see mass migration in so many directions. But after that first wave calmed, I wouldn't expect mass migrations except those following humanitarian disasters. Three had migrations we see today are caused by disasters. Even when the emigrants experience terrible conditions in the receiving country, I imagine it's because their previous life was shattered and they had to quickly flee. It's not a fair comparison to people who would migrate if immigration controls were removed.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by notch898a on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:05PM (#35072475)
Consider something like 1/3 of Americans have a criminal history. Maybe 1 of 30 of those are incapable of living in society. Keeping out fugitives makes sense but I totally disagree with keeping out criminals, particularly when in much of the world criminal often just means you did something the government didn't like.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by andrekandre on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:06PM (#35073339)

  > Consider something like 1/3 of Americans have a criminal history.
really? not as in traffic tickets, but actual conviction of a crime?
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:33PM (#35073658)
No. Not sure sure exactly where it started, but it gets attributed to Andrew Cuomo often enough, citing the 1 in 3 number. That comes from FBI statistics, which define a criminal record to include arrests.

Here is a discussion: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/aug/18/andrew-cuo...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#35073706)
That includes arrest records, not just convictions. About 3% of the population has served any time in prison, and about 8% of the population have been convicted of a felony.

https://news.uga.edu/total-us-population-with-felony-convict...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by notch898a on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:12PM (#35074104)
Are you familiar with the US immigration system? That is exactly what they consider in criminal history. What they examine includes arrests, not just convictions, so it's precisely the stat we want.

See form I-485 for PR:

  24.  Have you EVER been arrested, cited, charged, or detained for any reason by any law enforcement officer (including but not limited to any U.S. immigration official or any official of the U.S. armed forces or U.S. Coast Guard)?
I'm not sure what we're talking about if you're excluding non-convicted arrests, but it aint immigration.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by bumby on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @07:46PM (#35076888)
Immigration is generally a civil offense (I.e., misdemeanor). Generally, deportation is not an offense that prohibits you from entering again legally.

What programs like Operation Streamline do is take advantage of the fact that immigrants dont understand the legal system and, under the guise of a speedier procedure, effectively coerce immigrants to acquiesce to a criminal conviction. This actually does prevent them from coming legally at a later date once deported.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by FpUser on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:50AM (#35071353)
>"Humans stopped being migratory about 12,000 years ago"

Up until recently ( relatively ) a person could pretty much move to other country without much fuzz.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nhchris on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:02PM (#35071566)
Because this was so rare that the destination countries didn't see it as a problem. And when it did happen en masse, it was usually war.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:55PM (#35073211)
That’s not true at all, there were often famines and other natural disasters that made it impossible to live in a region and people just migrated. It happened constantly.

Watching the children in Ethiopia starving to death, I couldn’t help but wonder how we felt forcing people to live in an emergent desert to death by starvation was better if we just wrote a song about it - “We are the world.” If that were true, why couldn’t they just leave?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nhchris on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:20PM (#35073500)
Ethiopia is an interesting example, but not of scarcity. While my country's population grew by a mere 40% since 1950 (and has been stagnant the last few decades), Ethiopia's grew by 534%, and shows no signs of slowing: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ethiopia-popu...

Had we grown at their pace, we'd also be experiencing famines.

As for why they couldn't leave - you can ask their neighbors. The West is not the only destination.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:09PM (#35074073)
At the time I’m talking about the cause of the famine was an extreme drought, and all sorts of other problems as you allude to. More than population growth was war and instability - all great reasons to migrate if you could, but the lack of food is an even more common and compelling reason to migrate throughout human history regardless of the reason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983–1985_famine_in_Ethiopia

I didn’t assert the west should unilaterally open their borders. I stated that borders are inhuman - as humans are naturally migratory. Taking that to the real world, that would mean their neighbors should open borders as well - not just to Ethiopians, but to everyone.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by notch898a on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:23PM (#35071886)
You still can in Argentina and Paraguay.

Paraguay up until recently required a ~5k deposit but they dropped even that. In Argentina "technically" you're supposed to follow a bunch of rather restrictive resident visa pathways but few do that and you can file for citizenship immediately upon landing and until your case is finished cannot be deported. The requirements are basically live there for 2 years and show you had some income, but by judge shopping some allow black market income lol.

Others of note: Bolivia and Somaliland only require a token payment for a 1 year resident visa (think in Bolivia you only need do that 2 or 3 times to become PR or citizen). If you have a bit more cash several places like honduras / nicoragua / ecuador only require ~30k "investment" which is basically accessible (eventually) to anyone middle class+ with enough determination. When I went to Rojava they also accept basically anyone as they are a "people without a nation" who happen to have sort of a nation.

And then there's weev, who posts here on occasion. I think he got a Transnistria passport, which is obtainable after only a year of residence. It's my understanding residency is as easy as going to a hotel and asking to talk to the right people about getting a resident permit, and paying some moderate fees.

If you're not too discriminating pretty much anyone can emigrate from the US forever with very little capital.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vorpalhex on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:59AM (#35071518)
That is ahistorical. Rome, Greece and so on generally required you to file paperwork, pay money and usually join the military if you wanted to be able to move in their borders and have rights.

Even moving to a new tribe in Native peoples in North America required proving a blood relation, having someone vouch for you, or being skilled enough they would accept you in.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:29PM (#35073614)
In the last 70 years alone we've added over 5 billion people. In the 1800s there were vast swaths of temperate, fertile land that were basically unclaimed. Moving around was no big deal at that scale.

Now we have people everywhere (that doesn't suck; and even some places that do). We have social programs and expensive infrastructure. The world is very different now than even 100 years ago.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by FpUser on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:15PM (#35074155)
What is the end result? Something like you are to reside in this town an we'll let you out twice a year for vacation and XMas? Want to move to other city - there is a waiting list 10 years long.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:12PM (#35077569)
Controlled migration for the foreseeable future.

Maybe if the entire world reaches a broadly similar level of human development, including comparable levels of infrastructure and social support, migration can be opened up quite a bit.

But right now it would simply mean that developed nations would see a flood of people immigrating just to get those great services, and it would crush their system. So we need controls to keep the change manageable and ensure that the tax base scales appropriately to maintain the expected levels of service.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by FpUser on Thursday March 09, 2023 @10:20AM (#35082092)
>"Controlled migration for the foreseeable future."

Never mind migration. Even travel gets worse. We've had relatively frictionless travel between first world countries. Now it it only 3 month instead of 6 and online visas like ESTA. So it does not seem to get any better and does not correlate so "comparable levels".

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pyuser583 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:05PM (#35071600)
> Every time there has been mass unorganized migration it has been a humanitarian disaster

Are all of these unorganized, mass migrations disasters? Or are they in response to disasters?

Most organized mass migrations have been disasters. Forced relocations aren’t fun.

But unorganized mass migrations, where people say “let’s get out of this place and go somewhere better” tend to mitigate pre-existing disasters.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by mind-blight on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:40PM (#35073011)
Lots of countries maintain open borders. The entire Schengen zone is an open borders agreement.

Also, you're incorrectly conflating mass migration with open borders. You can have open borders without causing a mass migration and vice versa.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:49PM (#35073129)
Countries are equivalent to prisons in your example? I agree, they act that way now.

But what about states in the United States? They were explicitly formed as a set of states - nations - that cooperate under a federation. Free migration wasn’t always the case in the original states but was required in the constitution.

What about the EU? People can move about freely today when in the past they weren’t able to.

Or are you saying there’s something superior about Americans and Europeans and we need to keep everyone else in their prisons?

You quote 12,000 years ago as some sort of transition. Realistically migration was relatively unimpeded until the 1900’s. Citizenship isn’t the same as migration, and in many cultures citizens and denizens were two classes with the denizens migrating relatively unimpeded. Some cultures like ancient China had travel papers but that was reserved for nobles or elites - normal people were too beneath notice to require documentation to travel.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by tracker1 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:25PM (#35074942)
It's possible for any adjacent nation/country/region to join the US or EU... so it's perfectly possible for free travel, if you agree to the rules of the higher federation. You can only impact jurisdictions you have jurisdictional control over.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:16PM (#35077592)
I for one welcome our one world order overlords!
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by gameman144 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:44AM (#35071259)
I'm interested here, as I'm inclined to disagree pretty strongly.

How would you prevent the erosion of rights or culture by a group with a bigger population?

For instance, have a few hundred thousand Americans move to Cuba and vote to have Cuba secede to the US? Or a few hundred thousand mainland Chinese citizens move to Taiwan and do the same?

While it's definitely nice to keep migration smooth and easy, it seems like there are lots of issues wherein free and unlimited migration could cause relatively predictable problems.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:48AM (#35071325)
> For instance, have a few hundred thousand Americans move to Cuba and vote to have Cuba secede to the US?

That would be a great thing for Cuba. Cubans have been fleeing their failed state by the thousands, risking their lives and dying to get a shot at reaching America.

Starvation, medicine shortage, brutal LGBT purges are sadly common place under the Castro regime. Pretty sure these Americans would be welcomed with open arms!

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pastage on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:30PM (#35071997)
Miguel Díaz-Canel is president now.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by ashwagary on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:15PM (#35072628)
Most shortages seem to be due to economic sanctions and trade embargoes. I wonder how much fleeing rates would dwindle if they were lifted.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#35073699)
> Most shortages seem to be due to economic sanctions and trade embargoes.

Not really. Cuba is free to trade with any country that's not the USA (and is even free to trade with the USA except for certain entities or commodities).

Decades of corruption, incompetence, brain drain and failed government made the local economy unable to compete.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by ashwagary on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:48PM (#35075212)
>Not really.

A country of 11m people loses an estimated $3+ billion per year from various UN condemned restrictions.

Are you saying that causes no shortages? That's not a trivial sum of money (~$300 per capita).

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @06:25PM (#35076179)
~$300 per capita would be nothing in Switzerland ($92,434) or in America ($75,180). But it's a lot in Cuba ($9,500) simply because the government did mess up the economy so bad.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:35PM (#35072922)
The same way you would with a bigger population for any reason. There’s an added bonus that if rights erode, people can simply leave to somewhere less oppressive. People can’t leave oppressive places due to borders. Less oppressive places may become oppressive but that would drive people elsewhere.

I’d use the US as an example. In a real sense the US is a collection of small countries with a federal system and free right of migration. For this discussion the federal system is irrelevant. How does California or New York or other high populace states ensure erosion of rights? I’d posit part of the very reason they’re so attractive is they tend to hold rights very high on their list of priorities. More oppressive states, likewise lose populace to migration because unless you’re in the in group you don’t belong there.

Cultural erosion is IMO nativism and bias. Time is change, no culture is static, and even our oldest cultures are young compared to humanity and look nothing like they did 100 years ago. Changing populace doesn’t change a culture any more than time does, it’s just easier to blame someone that doesn’t look or talk like you for it.

Your examples of mainland Chinese citizens or Americans moving around are only relevant because the issue of borders to begin with. If there were permeable borders we would be in a steady state and you wouldn’t see behaviors like that. Maybe in the beginning you would see artifacts of history manifest weird transient behaviors, as you do in any suddenly changed dynamical system. But in steady state your scenarios would be as likely as all democrats moving to Georgia to change the election. It sounds good but in practice didn’t happen.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rajin444 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:15PM (#35073445)
> Cultural erosion is IMO nativism and bias

Are you implying that non natives are inherently better than natives?

One of the hallmarks of declining empires is importing people - not to say those people are better or worse, but mixing diverse peoples together is extremely hard. It has to be done slowly and carefully.

> Changing populace doesn’t change a culture any more than time does

I don’t see how you can look at the history of anyone anywhere and believe this.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:01PM (#35073999)
No, that’s a false dichotomy. You are implying by that false dichotomy that one is greater than the other. Until very recently in human history one would be the same as the other. That is what I am saying. Being born in a location has nothing to do with being better or worse. It’s just a random occurrence. What makes a person better than another is how they live their life, not the circumstances of their birth.

While I don’t disagree mixing of diverse people can be hard, I would simply point to American history as an example of how the empire you seem to laud was built by mixing peoples relentlessly. In fact immigrants tend to be the drivers of American growth, while the native born… not so much.

I find it fascinating you think culture doesn’t change with time, but with the mixing of different people into a culture only. What culture has been unchanged with time? Language itself mutates constantly, how can a culture be static with time? How does it stay static? The people in the culture change with every birth and every death, the memory of the culture is wiped out every 100 years. Written histories are a poor tool of continuity for something as complex as a culture. Human beings themselves change radically over the course of their lives. All things are impermanent, but human culture isn’t just impermanent, it’s an illusion.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rajin444 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:16PM (#35074829)
I guess it’s safe to assume you think genetics has no impact on life outcomes and/or there aren’t significant genetic differences between geographically (by ancestor) populations?

> What makes a person better than another is how they live their life, not the circumstances of their birth.

Their genetics dictate how they live their life. Environment can have an affect, but genes dictate how you react to your environment (unless you believe in God etc).

> I would simply point to American history as an example of how the empire you seem to laud was built by mixing peoples relentlessly.

Compared to the last 50 years or so these immigrants were all very similar both in history and genetics. And even then it’s been a rough ride! I agree immigrants can be great as long as they are carefully selected for.

> I find it fascinating you think culture doesn’t change with time, but with the mixing of different people into a culture only.

Cultures absolutely change over time but the rate of change is much slower than if you introduce a new people from vastly different cultures. It’s the shearing force applied by the differences that’s the issue. If it’s too powerful something has to give.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @09:14PM (#35077585)
No, I don’t believe in racial superiority. I also don’t believe genetics plays a great role in overall outcomes in life, otherwise known as eugenics. I think that in a population genetic attributes are fairly regular with small specific variances that aren’t enough to make one fitter in any dimension. On an individual level genetics can contribute towards specific traits, including to some degree intelligence and anxiety of mental illness. However the magic of the plasticity of the human brain is that it can, with effort, overcome virtually any impediment. I’d also point out that the more homogeneous the genetic population the worse overall outcomes tend to be. “Hybrid vigor” is a real thing and only comes from broad mixing of the genetic pools. So, yes, I think science is total against the idea of racial superiority not just out of its repugnant but just false and furthermore given the homogeneity issue impossible.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rajin444 on Thursday March 09, 2023 @09:54AM (#35081770)
I never claimed one race was superior to the other - just different (and these differences make cultural cohesion difficult).

> However the magic of the plasticity of the human brain is that it can, with effort, overcome virtually any impediment

That’s quite the claim depending on how you define impediment, but as is this statement is too vague to argue with.

> I’d also point out that the more homogeneous the genetic population the worse overall outcomes tend to be.

Again this is a very vague statement where the degree of variation matters. Hybrid vigor is poorly understood and when the differences are too great result in genetically worse offspring on some axis (mules are a perfect example of this).

> So, yes, I think science is total against the idea of racial superiority not just out of its repugnant but just false and furthermore given the homogeneity issue impossible.

I’ve made no claims of superiority and you’re taking a holier than though stance against the straw man you made up. Please leave the emotional appeals out.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Thursday March 09, 2023 @02:38PM (#35085600)
I didn’t say you did. I said I didn’t, and it was led to by this:

> I guess it’s safe to assume you think genetics has no impact on life outcomes and/or there aren’t significant genetic differences between geographically (by ancestor) populations?

This idea that genetics impacts life out comes at a population level is racial superiority, assuming you give some outcome as being qualitatively better. I don’t know how you can cut it any differently.

I definitely don’t think that genetics has any influence though on cultural adaptation. That’s entirely environmental. See adopted children from international cultures raised in a foreign culture from birth. They culturally identical while racially different.

On plasticity, I mean even granting some genetic difference that impacts some degree of adaption to some cultural normal, the brains ability to adapt even given such major structural issues like brain damage make small things like cultural adaption simple. In fact I expect given how much migration happened throughout history it’s an evolutionary necessity to be able to adapt culturally.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by rootusrootus on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:19PM (#35073489)
> In a real sense the US is a collection of small countries with a federal system and free right of migration.

Before that comparison works, you have to eliminate the Constitution and all of the protections that come with it.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by fnordpiglet on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:02PM (#35074009)
Why? You made a huge assertion with no explanation.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by tracker1 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:22PM (#35074914)
How is it different than the EU? I mean the alliance is stronger, and the EU is closer to the original Articles of Confederation the US was bound under. But aren't Germany and France separate nations... that we call different US states, and EU nations it's a very similar alliance.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by tracker1 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:19PM (#35074871)
You can only influence the rights/freedoms/liberties of those jurisdictional boundaries.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nhchris on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:16AM (#35070851)
> Governments (at the behest of businesses) enforce borders so that labor cannot effectively organise.

This is backwards, and I'm having trouble understanding how a more diverse, more transient population would find it easier to find common interests and unite. Suppose a factory unionizes - without borders, the owner will find it easier to import non-union workers. While moving a factory is challenging regardless of borders - it's a big, heavy thing, tied into local infrastructure and supply chains. It's even reflected in the rhetoric - "immigrants will do the jobs Americans won't".

It's also reflected empirically: Whole Foods' heat map says lower rates of racial diversity increase unionization risks - https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-tracks-unionizat... (unpaywalled: http://archive.is/1khJw)

And in the strong Danish unions as far back as 1981 (https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...) when Denmark had only 3.02% of immigrants and their descendants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark#Modern...)

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nerdponx on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:29AM (#35071043)
> easier to find common interests and unite

I think the idea is that there are common interests to be found, but borders artificially keep people apart, by segmenting up legal jurisdictions. For example, why Starbucks employees in Jersey City aren't all that different from Starbucks employees in New York City right across the river.

> Whole Foods' heat map says lower rates of racial diversity increase unionization risks

To what extent is this correlated with the economic security of their employees? Employees in wealthier areas (statistically correlated with whiter) might be more educated on average (which could be correlated with desire to unionize) and/or more likely to have a higher-income partner or family member (which means lower financial risk due to failure or being fired).

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nhchris on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:43AM (#35071240)
> borders artificially keep people apart

GPS data shows how wolf packs carve out territory - https://bigthink.com/hard-science/wolf-gps/

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nerdponx on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:44AM (#35071258)
This is not what I believe, but my attempt at summarizing the point under discussion.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by slackdog on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:47AM (#35071302)
Corporate DEI initiatives using divisive rhetoric designed to foster paranoia, in order to keep workers on edge around each other. ("You're all racist. Even if you think you aren't racist, asserting you have no subconscious racial biases only proves that you're overtly racist. You're constantly commit racist 'microaggression' offenses against your coworkers without even realizing it.")

Such paranoia between coworkers is a serious impediment to labor organization. The more diverse the workplace, the better this works.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nerdponx on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:37PM (#35072089)
* * *
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by slackdog on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#35073710)
> My experience has led me to believe that most individuals in favor of corporate DEI initiatives are earnestly and in good faith attempting to put into practice the recommendations of critical race theory and related frameworks.

Yes, of course they are. As explained by Chomsky's model of propaganda, corporations hire true believers for these roles because they are the most effective and reliable.

> most managers and employers are not so crafty

Amazon being so crafty is a documented fact; it's naive to think they're the only ones.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nerdponx on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:27PM (#35074969)
Chomsky's model of propaganda is a useful model, but it's not an iron law.

Amazon is a great example of a company where I absolutely would not put it past them to use DEI initiatives to try to defeat labor organizing. But in many other cases these initiatives are actually demanded and sought after by employees.

I think in this case the actions of well-meaning people were only appropriated as an oppression tactic after they've caught on in popularity.

History and my own anecdotal experience are not consistent with your implied theory that CRT-driven DEI became popular specifically as an anti-labor capitalist conspiracy.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by slackdog on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @05:21PM (#35075564)
Incidentally, it was while working at Amazon years ago that I first encountered the divisive and paranoia-inspiring form of DEI training which I described above.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pessimizer on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:20PM (#35071836)
> I'm having trouble understanding how a more diverse, more transient population would find it easier to find common interests and unite.

I think it would make it far easier. The problem is every jurisdiction attacking unions and workers in their own unique legal frameworks, and the forcing of unions/workforces to compete with each other across the borders between these jurisdictions. Capital gets to play Mexican against Indonesian workers, even down to workers in Cook County against workers in DuPage county.

If an Indonesian can easily work in Mexico and a Mexican can easily work in Indonesia, their interests aren't just theoretically similar, they're almost the same.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by vorpalhex on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:18AM (#35070880)
It is literally easier to move a person than an entire company across national borders. The process for both is at it's core the same - identify, verify and pay your taxes.

Yes people can and do move from Mexico to the Midwest all the time.

Why do you think Mexican laborers should get paid less for building your car then someone in Detroit? Part of the goal of NAFTA is to help stabilize the economy of Mexico and help longterm reduce the severe violence in parts of the country.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by wishysgb on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:02PM (#35071555)
Legally it is very hard for a Mexican to move to the Midwest. As in almost impossible requiring almost 20years.

I am not Mexican but it toke my family 14 years to be able to move to the US from Palestine, although my grandparents and uncles have been here since the 80s. It really isn't hard.

A company doesn't need to move everything, they can just literally build a new factory or rent one else where, not only that they would even get tax breaks as incentives for moving.

Borders enforce the huge discrimination in pay between TJ and San Diego. Even though the same companies work on both sides of the border.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by Kon-Peki on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:13PM (#35071728)
For professional jobs, it is very easy for a Mexican or Canadian to move to the US and work.

> The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) created special economic and trade relationships for the United States, Canada and Mexico. The TN nonimmigrant classification permits qualified Canadian and Mexican citizens to seek temporary entry into the United States to engage in business activities at a professional level.

> Among the types of professionals who are eligible to seek admission as TN nonimmigrants are accountants, engineers, lawyers, pharmacists, scientists, and teachers.

https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by notch898a on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:11PM (#35071703)
I'm honestly astonished people even do it the legal way. It's not even a crime to overstay. One could easily set up shop in California, get an AB 60 driver license, live in a sanctuary area and have at it.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by Forestessential on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:43AM (#35071241)
You are wrong. Mexico-United States Border keeps Mexican labor and business from being more ferocious than American businesses in America. Borders have been protecting cultural states for a very long time in fact. 3200BC and before countries existed. It has and still does have alot to do with cultural tastes, and unlike how you expressed it, 'protecting the economy' from being formed against the wishes of the countries leaders. Borders come about for different reasons surely, but to reduce a border to an economic zone is just commie-aide.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by remarkEon on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:47AM (#35071298)
> Governments (at the behest of businesses) enforce borders so that labor cannot effectively organise.

I have never heard this explanation. Where is it coming from? It sounds not only wrong but inverted to me. Governments enforce borders to effectively secure their territory and people, and thus its own power. Is the idea that, without the “legal fiction” of borders, we’d have some kind of global autoworkers Union or something?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:15PM (#35071763)
Lately - it seems people inside countries enforce their boarders to make sure other people from less fortunate countries can't come in and drive down their wages...

We live in a democracy.

The idea that we vote to screw ourselves over completely is strange.

Some people forget that everything isn't a zero sum game. Something can be good for companies and not bad for you. And something can be good for you and not bad for companies.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by kdkwsndne on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:32PM (#35072013)
> The idea that we vote to screw ourselves over completely is strange.

One word: Brexit

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by hellotomyrars on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:50PM (#35072264)
People vote against their own interests all the time, either out of a lack of understanding (willfully or otherwise), or because they are a single issue voter.

It should not be a surprise that social services are taken advantage by a large population of rural/republican voters who vote in candidates who’s explicit platform is removing or diminishing the very social services they depend on.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:53PM (#35072303)
> because they are a single issue voter.

If they're a single-issue voter then - by definition - they are not voting against their interests. They just have different interests than you.

Maybe you care about a million things, mostly revolving around taxes.

Maybe all they care about is whether or not someone else can get an abortion.

That's THEIR interest.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by 1_1xdev1 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:13PM (#35073411)
That's where their focus lies, not necessarily where their interests do.

It's in everyone's interest to get a good deal for their money. For example, we should all be for an efficient government, and efficient markets. However folks vote against those all the time without thinking about it, because their focus is elsewhere.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:35PM (#35074387)
No it isn't!

If you don't care about money, and only care about telling other people what to do - money isn't your interest. Telling other people what they can and can't do is your interest.

You seem to be incapable of grasping that other people care about other things than money.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by hellotomyrars on Thursday March 09, 2023 @08:06PM (#35089180)
These statements aren’t contradictory.

The single issue of that voter maybe be the most overriding important issue for them, but it doesn’t mean that the consequences aren’t still a net negative for them (Or especially society as a whole).

To my previous point, they may be doing so with full knowledge or with partial knowledge. They may knows Candidate X supports Issue Y and that is their top line issue. They may not know Candidate X’s position on Issue A, B, or C.

Those positions may have an impact on what they would actually prefer to vote on.

Candidates are not single issue, even if voters are, but they often advertise them that way to limit single issue voters from knowing or caring about anything else they represent.

You can also vote for someone who says the thing you like or prefer but the reality of their plan is contradictory to the stated goal. (Preventing Medicare from negotiating drug costs will somehow make them less expensive, according to some candidates)

To be clear my point isn't to blame voters specifically. My point is that due to imperfect knowledge (Anywhere from willful ignorance to not learning enough about a candidate to the particular candidate straight up lying about things) people make choices in voting that can and do contradict their own interests.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nradov on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:52AM (#35071397)
Indeed there is nothing stopping workers from organizing across borders, even if individual workers are only legally authorized to work in one country. Many labor unions have local chapters in multiple countries and can coordinate labor actions. For example, see the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers which operates in the USA and Canada.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pyuser583 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:00PM (#35071532)
It’s tricky. American unions avoid coordinating with their American counterparts because of corruption.

Unions have a very specific set of rules to play by, and these rules are different for each country.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nradov on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:22PM (#35071859)
Huh? There is certainly corruption in some labor unions but that doesn't prevent them from coordinating with their counterparts in other unions. Even the most corrupt unions frequently back each other up in order to maximize negotiating power versus management.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pyuser583 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @07:43PM (#35076864)
I’m really sorry. I wanted to say American unions avoid coordinating with their Mexican counterparts.

I was listening to an interviewer with a labor organizer on the US Mexican border who worked with new arrivals. He said the workers were used to unions from back in Mexico, but he had to spend lots of time educating folks about how things work in America.

Mexican unions have a level of corruption unheard of in even the most corrupt US unions.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by cmh89 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:23PM (#35071869)
>Unions have a very specific set of rules to play by, and these rules are different for each country.

The rules unions have to play by were put in place to reduce their power to effectively organize.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by lesuorac on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:46PM (#35072203)
> Governments enforce borders to effectively secure their territory and people

Only if by "secure" you mean prevent your population from leaving [1]. The whole origin of border control was to prevent people from leaving. The easy way to think about it is you can't leave a country without a passport but you can enter a country without a visa (exceptions apply).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport#History

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by remarkEon on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:00PM (#35072392)
You can think about it that way if you want, but it’s not how it works in reality and the wiki link contradicts what you’re saying about modern practices.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by stale2002 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:03PM (#35073303)
> Only if by "secure" you mean prevent your population from leaving

Did you think about this statement for even 1 second?

It should be clearly and immediately obvious that it is easier to leave places like the US than it is to enter it.

This is obviously the case.

You cannot with a straight face claim that actually it is easier to enter the US than leave.

Clearly, leaving is easier.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by lesuorac on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:31PM (#35075022)
There are 4x [1] the amount of people that annually enter the US than have passports issued [2].

It is in fact, 4x easier to enter the US than to leave. Passports are actually rare for a US citizen to have, you just live in a bubble.

[1]: https://www.trade.gov/sites/default/files/2021-03/Fact%20She... [2]: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by stale2002 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @05:41PM (#35075793)
> It is in fact, 4x easier to enter the US than to leave

Thats not how that works, lol.

If it took a lot of effort, PER person to enter the US, there could still be a lot of people who enter the US.

> Passports are actually rare for a US citizen to have

Its not difficult to get a passport, regardless.

Pointing to how many people choose to leave the US, or get a passport, says very little about how easy it is to do that.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by philwelch on Thursday March 09, 2023 @07:34AM (#35080574)
That doesn’t mean it’s easier to enter the US than to leave. The US is a desirable place to live, so not many people leave while lots of people want to come here.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by anotherman554 on Thursday March 09, 2023 @11:03AM (#35082695)
Your post is weird. Why would the amount of visitors to a country have anything to do with passports issued? The U.S. is less than 5% of the world's population. That's a hard limit on the amount of passports that can be issued.

The amount of visitors would be limited by the size of the tourism industry and regulations around entry visas. This is an unrelated metric.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by tap-snap-or-nap on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @05:11PM (#35075453)
Currently, there exist multinational corporations but not multinational unions. Furthermore, some countries do not permit unions to extend their reach across the same industry effectively. This perspective reflects the view that labor has been engaged in a conflict with capital.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by l3mure on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @07:25PM (#35076704)
The modern border system has deep roots in colonial policing as a means of labor discipline, targeting anti-colonial revolutionaries (a group which naturally overlaps with labor agitators), and racial delineation.

[1]

> Dispersed as it was, the village abroad was a curiously intimate place, where people knew each other, or of each other, or at least where one another came from. It has its own networks of information that paralleled the new colonial posts and telegraph. Rumour flew vast distances. It was into these byways that the story of Nguyen Tat Thanh [Ho Chi Minh] became interwoven, as he made his way through, and as the French attempted to trace his movements. The new regime in Indochina emerged out of a blizzard of papers for personal identification and restrictions on exit and entry.

[2]

> Migrants everywhere lived under the constant fear of sudden displacement or banishment. This practice of medieval rules was condemned in England by the Magna Carta of 1215, if never wholly discontinued. It was routine in the repertoire of colonial states. It was visited on Asian kings - the last Mughal emperor in 1958 and the deposed rulers of Burma in 1885, Vietnam in 1888 and 1907 and Korea in 1910 - as well as coolies. People of long residence could be suddenly expelled to some distant 'home', a point of imagined origin to which they might have few ties. This was a visceral exercise in power to cow and to shame: the life histories of the banished were recorded, their faces photographed, and the scars and other marks on their bodies mapped to guard against their return. In the Straights Settlements alone in 1914, 416 people were banished for life, and another 801 'vagrants' detained in prison, the great majority to be repatriated. Ministers denied in parliament that they used banishment to expel trade unionists from the colony.

[3]

> In no small part, modern empires were created in an effort to realize what the British Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, Winston Churchill, in 1908 called 'a harmonious disposition of the world among its peoples'. At the cold heart of liberal visions of free trade and progress was a ruthless global and racial division of labour. Europeans monitored movement obsessively, enumerating and marshaling people towards their mines, plantations and households. Colonial regimes' ability to control subjects beyond their own borders, often in the name of exercising 'protection' over them, became a yardstick of their authority and a challenge to their prestige. Who were all these people, and to whom did they belong? Who was what they said they were, and who was not, and how could it be proven?

[1] - Underground Asia, pp. 56

[2] - Ibid, pp. 61

[3] - Ibid, pp. 62-63

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by subsubzero on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:50AM (#35071362)
This line of thinking trends very recently. Corporations are not everything despite what they and the media have you believe. Countries are defined by territory either hard won from conflict(war) or based on shared cultural leanings. Having citizenship is a privilege for many and in some countries it requires mandatory enlistment in the armed forces(Israel, South Korea).
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by someguydave on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:55PM (#35072340)
That way of thinking collides with the idea that trade and immigration should be unfettered, especially if the benefits accrue to foreigners.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pjc50 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:58AM (#35071487)
It's true that hard borders are a modernish (start of c20th) invention, but they're just as often something that labour asks for in order to prevent labour competition. "Taking our jobs" and all that.

They're also products of both the information-state (being able to know who's in the country through identity document systems) and the jet age. Before the steamship the only real border enforcement was on trade at ports.

The British Empire had "freedom of movement" that effectively lasted only as long as people weren't using it in significant numbers. People could move from the colonies to the centre, and indeed after WW2 the government actively solicited Jamaicans to do so (Empire Windrush), but resistance from the public has increased since then.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by mtoner23 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:59AM (#35071516)
Idk, i think borders exist to exclude other groups of peoples. this is why european countries kept splitting up on various racial groups (check and slovaks, all of yugoslavia) Businesses on the other hand would prefer to have access to all peoples. and to have access to cheaper or better labor wherever it is, giving us the success of the european union.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by pessimizer on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:14PM (#35071740)
> Idk, i think borders exist to exclude other groups of peoples.

To exclude them from what? That's the question. You give one of the answers here: sometimes people would want to exclude them because they lower wages. But in reality, people who are alarmed by lower wages are rarely in the position to say anything about what happens at the border. The people who get a say about that are the people who are alarmed by higher wages.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by nradov on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:36PM (#35072078)
The differences between groups in the former Yugoslavia have little to do with race (as most Americans would understand the term). It's tough to tell the difference between a Croat and a Serb just by looking at them. Conflicts were based more on culture, religion, language, and perhaps something akin to "tribal" identity (not literally tribes but I don't know how else to describe it). Some of these conflicts date back to the 14th century.

The only significant group in the region which some might identify as a distinct "race" are the Roma. That minority lives in all of the countries and they didn't cause countries to split up.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by selimthegrim on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:00PM (#35073977)
Albanians?
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by stronglikedan on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:05PM (#35071605)
Maybe, but that's not the only reason. Borders are also enforced because you can't have open borders and social welfare programs.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by andrekandre on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:51PM (#35073149)

  > you can't have open borders and social welfare programs
this may sound simplistic/naive but cant you just tax those additional people to pay for those welfare?

i guess the assumption is those people wouldnt be working?

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by inglor_cz on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:01PM (#35074000)
It is more of a "long term experience" than mere "assumption".

At least in Europe, a sizeable amount of illegal migrants has only very rudimentary education, and the # of job openings for unqualified people is very limited. Some literally cannot read even in their own language.

As a result, immigrants from Africa and the Middle East are, on average, significantly overrepresented among welfare collectors and significantly underrepresented among taxpayers.

Of course, as long as the numbers involved are tiny, you can try to educate at least their kids, but once a fairly low threshold is crossed, parallel societies develop in full. Having classrooms where 90 per cent of the kids don't even speak the official language of the country is quite an intractable problem. And that threshold beyond which the schooling system basically gives up has been crossed in many regions of many countries such as Sweden or France.

TL;DR: You cannot maintain a modern welfare state with premodern population.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by r3trohack3r on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:06PM (#35071622)
> ignores the central reason for governments to enact borders […:] so that labor cannot effectively organise.

You’re going to have to show up with some evidence for this claim. You’re not asserting that the outcome is a byproduct of borders, a happy accident useful to businesses. You’re asserting that the driving reason for the concept of a border is for businesses to disrupt organized labor.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by somewhereoutth on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:26PM (#35071933)
Which is why the EU single market has free movement of workers as one of its 4 central pillars.

A major sticking point with Brexit - the UK wanted to be in the market without worker free movement (because immigrants)

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by MithrilTuxedo on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:31PM (#35072008)
The United States is probably a more common example for Americans. The US Constitution makes the whole country a free trade zone between states. Borders between states are easily navigated by corporations, by design. Workers in Washington compete with workers in South Carolina. Manufacturers can freely move their plants around the US.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by quacked on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:40PM (#35072126)
Most of these types of articles take a "consumer" model of civilization: humans exist to consume, and the primary question is what they're going to consume and where they're going to do it. Labor exists as a phenomenon that enables future consumption, and QoL is measured by GDP per capita. "Countries" are an irrelevant social construct that inhibit free trade between interested, cooperative parties. This is a very limiting, privileged point of view of humanity. In reality Civilization is a mysterious art that requires cult-like adhesion to certain practices in order to "work". These economics-heavy libertarian open borders guys have absolutely no idea what to do when the power goes out for more than a week, or if they're personally wronged by a neighbor and the government won't get involved. It's a childish, first-world view of Man and Man's culture to assume that the only thing needed for Prosperity and Peace is economic competition administered and monitored by first-world-style democratic governments.
Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by indymike on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:39PM (#35072996)
> central reason for governments to enact borders, a rather modern invention.

Every deceased Emperor, Chief, King, Earl, Duke, Lord and other ruler of lands and holder of fiefdoms would disagree with this.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by paradox242 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:14PM (#35073430)
I am confused about your use of the word 'borders' in this context. As long as there have been states there has been a concept of sovereign territory and so there have been borders, even if it was somewhat fuzzy where exactly that line was in real space.

Large companies are able to navigate the border issues because they are able to make deals with a government and can (at least promise) to bring in a lot of investment and wealth that the government might be able to realize in taxes, either directly from the company's revenues, or indirectly through other businesses and property that grows along with the company's investment.

That company's can do this more effectively than individuals is less a function of some kind of cynical conspiracy to cut out of the worker (though that might be a side benefit that both sides appreciate), than it is a simple pragmatic response to the fact that it is much easier to deal with a small number of people about a large sum of money than it is with a large number of people about small sums of money.

This is similar to why the U.S. government is so amenable to working so often with dictatorships to secure it's international interests. They can work with (or influence or bribe) a single person or small group to make large deals quickly and without having to worry about the messy politics and oversight associated with a democratic government that has to approve major policy decisions.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by inglor_cz on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:59PM (#35073970)
"a rather modern invention"

Congestion charge is a rather modern invention as well, because the amount of cars in some city centers exceeded the tolerance of the locals and the capacity of the roads.

Borders can be soft/open as long as a modest amount of people crosses them. In a world of 8 billion people and relatively cheap travel, open borders would result in massive flows of people into several desirable locations - whose citizens aren't happy about such prospects.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by WaitWaitWha on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:04PM (#35074031)
>This line of thinking comes up often on HN but it ignores the central reason for governments to enact borders, a rather modern invention.

Would you be kind and provide some scholarly proof for the rather modern invention? It might not have been called "border" and have the gate with digital IDs to pass by but well defined (for their time) territories existed for thousands of years as evidenced by territory disputes between bordering sovereign groups in all lived-on continents.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by mikem170 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:29PM (#35074316)
Not the parent you replied to, but the modern passport as we know it goes back only about 100 years.

> Migration was generally speaking, unhindered and each emigrant could decide on the time of his departure, his arrival or his return, to suit his own convenience. But World War I brought harsh restrictions on freedom of movement. [0]

> The concept of a worldwide passport standard is relatively new, created in the aftermath of the First World War. ...the United States at the turn of the last century emerges: a near constant rush of immigrants, most destined to pass through Ellis Island. There they were given a cursory disease check, questioned, and in most cases, allowed to proceed on their journeys inward. This was easy enough to do without a global standard for identifying documents. [1]

> On the outbreak of the First World War, countries imposed border controls to block the entry of subversives and the exit of men with skills useful to the war effort. Passports were issued to allow travellers access through these restrictions. When peace came in 1918 most countries retained both border controls and passports. [2]

There used to be more restrictions on commerce than on people. Now it is the opposite. Money can move freely across international borders, and labor has become something to arbitrage.

[0] https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-meas...

[1] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/a-history-...

[2] https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/when-passports-...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by colonCapitalDee on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @04:59PM (#35075325)
I'm not convinced. Passports might be a modern invention (and really that isn't surprising, a global identification system requires sophisticated bureaucracy and cheap, accessible transportation), but that doesn't mean that people used to be able to move freely across borders. Modern technology makes immigration accessible to the masses in a way that simply wasn't the case in the pre-modern world.

A few things you would have to consider before immigrating in the pre-modern world:

- Where are you going? There's no internet, books are rare, and maps are inaccurate (and often plain wrong)

- How will you get there? Transportation is expensive and unreliable

- How will you preserve wealth? A global financial system accessible to normal folks does not exist yet

- What will you do to support yourself? Pre-modern communication infrastructure makes scoping out foreign labor markets difficult

- How will you learn the language? You'll have to find someone to teach it to you, instructional material will be limited

- Who will you leave behind? Any family members that don't come with you will likely never be seen or heard from again

- What if people decide you're not welcome? Well-enforced protections against discrimination do not exist yet

People did immigrate, so obviously immigration was not impossible. Not all of these questions apply to every situation (people migrating to an adjacent country would not have to deal with many of these concerns). But immigration was far harder than it is today, and fraught with risk. Pre-modern borders were, by virtue of being pre-modern, effectively closed.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by mikem170 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @06:56PM (#35076451)
I agree that modern transport and communication has significantly changed peoples abilities to migrate.

Wouldn't this mean that eventually the world will be more integrated in every dimension, regardless of the desires of those controlling borders, that lower barriers to communication and transportation will continue to make the world a smaller place? Will it be possible to stop this as the decades and centuries go by?

There's already millions of people crossing borders every year, like the southern U.S. border, refugees from Africa and the Middle East into Europe, migrants leaving Russia and Ukraine, migrants between countries in Africa, Asia, and South America, etc. One might expect those numbers to increase over time, as it gets easier to travel.

Perhaps it is inevitable that the world will continue to integrate.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by WaitWaitWha on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @05:13PM (#35075477)
The original post I was asking for further details is about borders, not passport.

That said, passports have been around near as long as borders, just did not have the smart chip embedded in them. Letters of recommendations or safe passage to pass a port have been around nearly as long as the notion of sovereign boundaries. It might have been a parchment with a wax seal, a ring, or a stick with a burn-mark, maybe even clay tablet, but the purpose of the "passport" is the same - passage into and across a territory controlled by another group other than the person holding the "passport" - i.e. safe passage.

Your reference last states King Henry the 5th of England had "pass porte" in the early 15th century. The Greek city states had safe-passage documents between each other way before the English. There is a bilingual "letters of recommendation" in Chinese and Tibetan from the 10th century to allow safe passage for a pilgrimage. A thing that allows a non-local to pass safely into and out of a territory. (British Library IOL Tib J 754) https://www.princeton.edu/news/2014/11/17/bringing-ancient-b...

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by mikem170 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @06:43PM (#35076329)
I saw that there were passport documents for safety in the past, like you mentioned. I've also heard of documents called passports being used to grant foreigners permission to conduct commerce, and others allowing locals to move between provinces within a country.

I wonder about borders, also. I wonder when they started guarding borders like they do today. I know there were places with minimal border control, like the U.S. before the world wars. Were there places a hundred years ago and earlier where boarders were guarded like they are today? Did they want to keep the serfs in place? Did rulers care about peasants moving back and forth? Or are modern borders, imperfect as they are, only possible at this time due to modern governments and the military resources they can dedicate to such things?

My guess is that modern borders and modern passports came about around the same time. There's no sense in requiring documentation for every person crossing a border unless a country has the wherewithal to enforce that rule.

Re:Governments Should Compete for Residents, Not Businesses by zamnos on Thursday March 09, 2023 @05:37AM (#35079980)
In medieval times, the border was the wall that had armed guards on it to keep invaders out and the peasants in, so there's precedent there. Everyone lived their lives inside that wall unless their king allowed them to leave. Not allowing someone to leave without permission was documented all the way back to the Romans, in 27 BC when Augustus did not let senators go to the new Roman state, Egypt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement