News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by almog on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:15PM (#35035809)
Not only it's not high compared to historical rate but worse I think is that Fed's real interest rate is still in the negative territory: January CPI report headline came at 6.3% YoY and core at 5.3% YoY (it's negative with current rates even if you use the PCE index as a baseline, which is the Fed's favorite index to measure inflation).
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by roflyear on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:21PM (#35035858)
seems the consensus is "a little more inflation" is better than "a bigger recession" which is probably true. People are still trying to get on their feet, and inflation is "felt" a lot less than losing your job (and not being able to find a new one for a long time).
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by almog on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:31PM (#35035956)
Claiming that "a little more inflation" is preferred to "a bigger recession" is an opinion, but:

1. I'm not sure you replied to to the right comment as I mostly just shared data regarding the claim that the current rate is high.

2. I'm really not sure it's a consensus but I think it's a question of no landing (ongoing inflation) vs hard landing (recession) - as far as I know (though I'm really not well educated when it comes to economy), in the entire Fed's history, inflation has never just disappeared by itself without restrictive financial conditions. I think it wouldn't be hard to argue why a no landing scenario could be worse than recession.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by roflyear on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:58PM (#35036190)
Well yes, but like I said, it seems like most people feel this is the good approach in my experience. I dunno if it is a good thing or not...
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by spatley on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:56PM (#35037645)
I am starting to doubt that interest rates are the best lever against inflation.

Rising prices are supply not meeting demand. It feels like improving productivity would be an equally powerful tool with less human cost. Granted that is a harder thing to control quarter over quarter.

Consider this analysis that intetest rates may in some cases raise prices. https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2023/02/04/do-high-inter...

And more links along that line from the pluralistic blog. https://pluralistic.net/2023/02/04/if-i-was-a-horse/#friedma...

Does anybody else hear talk of productivity in talk of inflation?

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by sdenton4 on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:09AM (#35038283)
Absolutely.

The mainstream economists are wringing their hands over full employment and rising wages, the first time in decades that we might see the middle class grow, because production isn't sufficiently meeting demand.

We should be producing more stuff - especially housing - instead of trying to keep people from earning more.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by midasuni on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:23AM (#35038359)
We’ve had unaffordable housing in the U.K. for a generation and haven’t built because of nimbys.

Housing costs thus increase to suck all income.

It’s a great way to return to feudalism.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by actionfromafar on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:24AM (#35038718)
At least you guys can have the bona fide real feudalism. We others have to pretend the Lords are just accomplished citizens, only a bit more equal than others.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by imtringued on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:24AM (#35040185)
Raising interest rates on its own doesn't do anything about inflation at all, actually. When you raise interest rates you are decreasing demand for borrowing but even that on its own doesn't decrease inflation. Inflation slows down as people pay off their debts as this destroys money that was previously created through loans. It's basically a side effect, not the main effect.

If you have a bankrupt government that can't afford interest payments, then raising interest rates will just lead to borrowing more money to pay the interest in a vicious cycle until hyperinflation sets in.

If you can limit borrowing and speed up payback of debts through any means other than raising interest rates you achieve the same effect much sooner.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by bradleyjg on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:28PM (#35035918)
Not sure whose consensus that is, but I don’t think it’s central bankers’.

Their ability to fight inflation is tied up in market participants believing they will do what it takes to do so even in the face of harsh costs. If that reputation comes into doubt, we could end up with the worst of both worlds.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by roflyear on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:58PM (#35036184)
Maybe, but it seems to be what most investing-minded people seem to be ok with. I'm just a guy on the internet sharing my thoughts, btw.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by b33j0r on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:53PM (#35036148)
This conversation needs someone fiddling in the background.

No one had a normal economic life for several years. It’s a miracle that these levers have been adjusted to the point that everyone is like “well no one going to work for three years had no impact! What over-reactionaries!”

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by ceejayoz on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:39PM (#35036492)
> no one going to work for three years

Where did this happen?

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by zamnos on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:11PM (#35036711)
I'm not sure about three years, but anywhere the service and entertainment industry was shut down due to Covid. Eg California.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by noah_buddy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:12PM (#35037120)
It was not even a year before people in the film business were returning to sets.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by midasuni on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:19AM (#35038335)
No nobody works in California outside of that industry?
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by realjhol on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:24AM (#35038367)
Not due to covid - due to government's hysterical overreaction to covid
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by koudelka on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:42AM (#35038456)
for the purposes of this conversation, that’s a distinction without a difference
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by umanwizard on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:54AM (#35040387)
It’s important to keep the distinction in mind. We can’t forget that the hardship we imposed on ourselves was a choice, and that we could have chosen differently.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by dd36 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:12PM (#35036718)
Yeah, I don’t know a single person that didn’t work.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by b33j0r on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:41PM (#35036916)
Good analysis. It was more of a comment on the nature of the economy and work getting turned upside down.

Anecdotes and economics get kinda blurry here. It’s like how Austrian economists must feel 110% of the the time.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by toomuchtodo on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:38PM (#35036903)
A friend worked for Royal Caribbean in their entertainment division onboard. No work, no unemployment, a bit of stimulus, and had to crash at one of my homes so they weren’t homeless. Because no one rents to you when you have no assets and volatile income during a pandemic.

This is one of many of my associates in the service industry that had employment challenges.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by takeda on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:32PM (#35037240)
How came no unemployment?

If you had regular job, you were eligible for unemployment there was also PUP enabled due to pandemic, so if you were self employed you could request unemployment under that. In addition there were also short periods of time where you could get extra $600/week (as it is impossible to survive for long on the usual unemployment amount)

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by shagie on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:58PM (#35037370)
https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-line-crew-workers-los...

They tend to work as contractors on a limited term contract and intercalation maritime labor laws are unlikely to require it. Note also the country of registry for the ships may have more lax labor laws too.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by CydeWeys on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:46PM (#35037602)
Royal Caribbean's ships are flagged and run out of Nassau. I doubt US labor laws are relevant here.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by takeda on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:24PM (#35037187)
I know two that previously worked as waitresses, and were let go immediately once emergency was declared. Fortunately for them they used the time and money from unemployment to return to school and will be soon graduate with much better careers.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by jandrewrogers on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:33PM (#35037251)
I am close to several people that were unemployed for at least 18 months due to COVID policy erasing their jobs.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by spatley on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:14PM (#35037457)
Yeah, we need to stop talking about the pandemic experience like it affected people in any way similarily. Tech worked their fingers to the bone— 50 hour weeks and isolatng heads down grind. Everyone made money but it crushed their souls. Hospitality and entertainment stayed home and starved. Essential workers went in every day under crushing conditions, fear and literal death.

We were all subject to one master. But under a different punishment.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by IAmGraydon on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:40AM (#35038446)
Hilarious to think that 50 hour weeks is working your fingers to the bone.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by bryanrasmussen on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:45AM (#35038838)
10 hours over the default American work week does seem a bit much.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by WeylandYutani on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:49AM (#35040336)
America is not "the West". Everyone kept their pay check in my country.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by umanwizard on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:56AM (#35040409)
> Tech worked their fingers to the bone— 50 hour weeks and isolatng heads down grind.

This may have been your experience but it was nowhere near mine. I think talking about “tech” as a whole is generalizing too broadly.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by majormajor on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:37PM (#35036893)
I find the idea that there's a "normal" period somewhat baffling. Conditions have been constantly changing for hundreds of years, from interest rates to investment strategies to technology to globalization etc.

Nobody has a magic crystal ball for what's next.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by SimDeBeau on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:33PM (#35037250)
I don’t disagree, but it also seems possible to identify periods that are more unusual compared to their neighboring periods, and useful to talk about them.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by mym1990 on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:18AM (#35039344)
It depends on a person's financial situation, from my understanding: if you have a lot of debt(which the average USA household does), you benefit greatly the more inflation goes up. If you have money sitting in the bank, you're basically getting eaten alive. If you have assets, they typically should be tracking inflation somewhat(real estate, some stock categories, TIPS, etc...).

People will be in between any of the above situation simultaneously, but between having to get fired and seeing costs go up a little at a time, I imagine most people will defer the gut punch and take the erosion of spending power.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by ethbr0 on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:51AM (#35039938)
There's also one big winner in an inflationary environment: the US federal government, who happens to owe a LOT of debt.

Inflation shrinks the present value of that debt, without requiring the government to cut spending to pay it down, which would have serious economic consequences (see: austerity).

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by tempsy on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:16AM (#35040569)
how is a saver getting eaten alive when high yield savings accounts and short term t-bills are paying 5%

holding cash is paying something for the first time in more than a decade

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by positr0n on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:26AM (#35042093)
Because you don't care about the number in your bank account, you care about what you can buy with that number.

Park your cash in a 5% instrument for a year and you can still afford 3-4% less stuff than you could at the beginning of the year.

That's fine for me with a mortgage, but less retirement headroom for many older people.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by roflyear on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:28PM (#35045352)
Cash was paying out plenty a few years ago.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by mym1990 on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:59PM (#35048293)
Because inflation was still anywhere from 6-9% on average, but was higher than that for things like housing, healthcare, education, food, and transportation. Holding cash is not "paying" anything, even though you can't see it happen, the purchase power of that cash has deteriorated massively in the past 3 years.

I personally have a hard time going out to a restaurant and getting a 2 person meal for less than say 30-40$. Car market is absolutely through the roof. Housing market, although cooling slightly, is still through the roof. Our base rent went up 15% last year. Gas is now double in my area.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by boppo1 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:21PM (#35037165)
How does one determine the 'real' interest rate?
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by jcalvinowens on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:30PM (#35037227)
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by jaggederest on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:01PM (#35037396)
To parallel the other comment with a wiki leak, the short version is the risk-free interest rate (e.g. treasury bills) minus the rate of inflation.

So if you have 6% inflation, and the return on e.g. the 1 year t bill is 4.75%, you have -1.25% "real" interest rates, because your money at the end of your year of investment will be worth ~1.23% less than it was at the beginning of the year.

I'm not sure I completely agree that the result is actually as bad as that, since stuffing your money in the mattress would put you -5.5% in the hole by comparison, but still.

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by hayksaakian on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:07AM (#35038271)
does that really work? inflation is a backward looking metric and interest rates are forward looking.

this is just about making a prediction of the future.

if you believe that inflation will decrease then your guaranteed rate of return from interest rates is great.

if you believe that inflation will increase or stay the same, then yes we have "negative interest rates"

I don't think it's reasonable to call it a "real" interest rate, because I can't buy T bills against it and it has no guarantees

Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by nohuck13 on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:17AM (#35038659)
"Real" is a term of art for something inflation-adjusted, as opposed to nominal. That's it. Of course you can have expectations about it: they would inform your decisions about what to invest in or borrow.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by ElevenLathe on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:11AM (#35041194)
"real interest rate" is also sometimes an informal way to refer to r* ("r star"), the discussion of which is definitely into metaphysical territory!
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by niij on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:37AM (#35041502)
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by fauigerzigerk on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:17AM (#35038320)
I think the best "real" interest rate we have is the current interest rate minus inflation expectations. Central banks try to influence credit demand, and the real cost of credit is the current interest rate minus the inflation rate over some future period.
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by raincom on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:41AM (#35039861)
Nominal interest rate = inflation + real interest rate, now your question boils down to 'how does one determine inflation?'
Re:Can the West’s perplexing employment miracle continue? by shjake on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:01AM (#35040454)
Annualized inflation in last quarter was just 3.1% and Core was 4.6%. The peak in Q2 was 10.5% and 6.6%. So looking just at the YoY figure is problematic cause it’s a strongly lagging indicator. Of course it depends if the current trend continues. It starting going back up in January so it might not (then again certain components in CPI like housing generally tend to lag more than others).