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Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by zxcvbn4038 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:16AM (#35030937)
I used to visit one of the NYC the Go stores daily until covid happened. It was cute and surgically clean, worked wonderfully, and their inventory management was much better then CVS and Duane Reade which often sell out of things and have empty shelves for days.

But nobody ever went there - no matter what time of the day I went, there would be one person doing inventory and stocking, two people standing by to help people install the Go app on their phones and explain the concept, and myself. Occasionally one other person being helped to install the app.

I think the issue was that everything there except Coca-Cola and Arizona tea cost significantly more then any of the surrounding stores, and if you hate quinoa you were SOL because it was in everything except drinks and sushi. If you are paying two thirds of your income or more on a Manhattan apartment you probably couldn’t afford to eat routinely from the Go store. Then Covid happened.

I really hate the guy who decided to put quinoa in everything. Because of that I only ever bought drinks there.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by bitxbitxbitcoin on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:27PM (#35031732)
Putting quinoa in everything and assuming the addressable market had more disposable income seems like one of the signs of the last bubble.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by Spivak on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:41PM (#35031919)
Why are people so weird about food? What about quinoa made it associated with rich yuppies? If you didn’t already know you would probably assume the main consumers would be dudes who want their chicken and carb to have even more protein.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by swatcoder on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:56PM (#35032093)
Food choice being a proxy and signal for class/culture is nothing new. You’d be hard pressed to find a cultural tradition that doesn’t speak to it.

While everyone needs sustenance, there are often several adequate choices about how to get it and making those choices become a way of communicating to others. And communicating is an defining and seemingly valuable part of being human.

It’s not really weird and it’s not going anywhere.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by kazinator on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:50PM (#35033225)
Consumption of quinoa doesn't demonstrate your food choice as much as that you follow quaint trends.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by sammalloy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:40PM (#35033718)
I share the same concerns about quinoa as OP. My guess is that it has to be made and served fresh, and these stores have it sitting on shelves for days at a time and it tastes funny after a while.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by chordalkeyboard on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:01PM (#35032167)
> What about quinoa made it associated with rich yuppies?

poor people use wheat etc.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by baq on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:20PM (#35032350)
Oh the irony. Rye was poor people’s cereal back then, wheat was for the rich.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by capableweb on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:07PM (#35032810)
Lobster was once for prisoners and slaves or a poor mans food, while nowadays it's almost exactly the opposite. It'll be hard to find a prisoner or slave that gets to eat lobster.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by philwelch on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:57PM (#35033848)
That’s mostly because they didn’t really know how to prepare it back then.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by giaour on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:48PM (#35034369)
Oysters were poor people food in the same era, and like now, many people ate them raw. It has less to do with culinary trends and much more to do with the relative productivity of the lobster fishery. (In recent years, the lobster fishery has been really productive, but prices have been pretty sticky[0].)

Mark Kurlansky's The Big Oyster has some great primary source research on the social status of eating shellfish through the years.

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/in-maine-fishermen-str...

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by philwelch on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:08AM (#35037992)
At the time when lobsters were fed to prisoners, they hadn’t yet figured out the boiling-them-alive trick, which is supposedly how you get lobster to taste good. I don’t know anything about oysters though.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by capableweb on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:07AM (#35040049)
Boiling lobster (and other things) alive is more about preventing food poisoning as bacteria appears quickly as soon as it's dead. You could kill a lobster right before cooking it (not boiled alive) and have the same flavor + reducing health risks.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by CydeWeys on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:18PM (#35034038)
It's not ironic. Agricultural methods have changed over the millennia and as a result the relative price of many foods has gone way down. See also white rice.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by baq on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:25PM (#35034109)
I don't disagree. It's the fads and narratives that come alongside which are... looking for the right word here - dumb?
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by kazinator on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:53PM (#35033259)
I'm not aware that quinoa is expensive. Some rich yuppies have the time for following lame food/health/lifestyle trends. However, doing that is lame at any income level. A proper bro dude will never eat yogurts sprinkled with acai berries and quinoa or whatever crap.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by passwordqwe on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:07PM (#35032807)
There's reports of prisoners complaining about the torture of being fed salmon all the time, because it used to be common food. People signal their class and status through everything, also through food.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by novok on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:23PM (#35032967)
Salmon not prepared, handled or stored properly or not served fresh can taste pretty bad and smell pretty bad compared to other meats. Seafood in general goes bad fast compared to beef or pork for example.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by cstejerean on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:26PM (#35033600)
I used Blue Apron for a while and got an unreasonable amount of salmon for some reason. It's been almost 6 years and I can still barely eat salmon after that. So I can definitely understand where the prisoners were coming from on this one.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by yukinon on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:53AM (#35037915)
This comment is confusing to me, because Blue Apron lets you select your own meals. Why would you continue to select salmon if you had it too often?
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by cstejerean on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:09PM (#35044970)
Things might have changed since then, but from what I recall while we had some options on what to pick, for example I could eliminate red meat entirely, there was no option to get meat and not get salmon. So pretty much every week at least one of the meals was salmon.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by specialist on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:58AM (#35041729)
The lumber camp installation inside the Nordic Hertitage Museum (Seattle) shows a sample employee contract: Salmon will not be served more than 3 times per week.

At the time, salmon was the cheapest, most abundant source of protein. Poor people's food.

IIRC, lobster in New England was about the same.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by asveikau on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:02PM (#35033378)
Quinoa specifically: it's foreign sounding, so people were unfamiliar with it, and it was touted for being more nutritious than things like rice.

So, novelty and cool factor, plus appeal to those looking for healthy options; some overlap with the faddish nature of trends in healthy eating.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by emodendroket on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:04PM (#35033394)
Because nobody really ate it in the US and then it was everywhere it was a fad among rich yuppies. Yeah peasants ate it in South America (there were even newspaper editorials chastising yuppies for denying poor people their quinoa supply by eating it for frivolous reasons) but so what?
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by rsynnott on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:59PM (#35033872)
It become quite expensive for a few years, as it became popular at a greater rate than production increased. Bulk price seems to be down again now, though.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by hgsgm on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:28PM (#35031738)
What is quinoa put in?
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by sammalloy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:39PM (#35033703)
Mostly grab and go foods like salads. It’s terrible just like the OP said.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by CydeWeys on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:38PM (#35031881)
Isn't the whole point of Amazon generally, and these stores specifically in not having staff, that it's supposed to be cheaper? I think you've pinpointed the reason it failed, but I can't imagine why they thought it was going to succeed at those prices.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by imglorp on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:56PM (#35032087)
Maybe they were thinking about the immediate gratification cognitive bias. You might see the price on the shelf as you take each item from the shelf, but that doesn't translate to a total expense until you actually pay the Amazon bill at the end of the month.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by 13of40 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:27PM (#35032421)
I'm not sure it actually failed. These stores work by having AI track customer actions via camera, and over the last couple of years they've gotten a ton of data and domain knowledge from them. It isn't hard to imagine that's been leveraged in whatever's watching the cameras at Whole Foods.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by jarjoura on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:11PM (#35032845)
Although they've added self-checkout lanes to Whole Foods, human interaction is in its DNA and you pay for that premium.

Amazon is only able to capture your order details if you use the app at checkout.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by WeylandYutani on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:02AM (#35040007)
What kind of human interaction do you get out of some bored 15 year old girl at the supermarket? For me it doesn't go beyond "hello" and "bye". Maybe it's something to do with culture.

Anyway I looked up some data and over half the customers in my country use the self checkout now.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by CydeWeys on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:08PM (#35033940)
The point of spending this massive amount of money on an automated store is to recoup that investment by opening lots of automated stores and make money in volume, taking advantage of your lower labor costs.

If they don't actually open at least hundreds of these then they've thrown away massive amounts of money on R&D they'll never get back, and the data they did accumulate isn't even particularly useful as it's in the context of a type of store they're not running at scale.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by andrei_says_ on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#35032454)
Cheaper for Amazon, yes. Why would they externalize the profit? Just maximizing extraction by eliminating the few remaining local jobs.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by __derek__ on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:45PM (#35032615)
How did it fail? They just announced that eight stores were permanently closed after having been closed indefinitely, one of which was inside of an Amazon office that shut down last year.[1] It looks like they still have 29 Go stores open nationwide.[2]

[1]: https://www.geekwire.com/2023/amazon-closing-eight-amazon-go...

[2]: https://www.amazon.com/b?node=16008589011

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by asveikau on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:14PM (#35033489)
This reminds me that the San Francisco ones, if I remember correctly, are in a part of town that's been famously devoid of foot traffic since the pandemic.

San Francisco might be receptive to the concept, but it would have to be close to where people live, rather than where office workers used to go.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by jonathankoren on Sunday March 05, 2023 @05:25PM (#35034804)
The only one I know in SF was down in the FiDi, and I can’t imagine that area had much traffic during the pandemic, and I question how much it has now.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by asveikau on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:24AM (#35037778)
That's precisely what i was saying.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by grogenaut on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:40PM (#35033719)
I'm also seeing this tech in some airports in basically a linear contained store. Walk in, walk down the tunnel grab what you want, walk out. Seemed very efficient and airport appropriate
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by __derek__ on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:26AM (#35042091)
Sports venues, too. They have the Amazon version installed at Climate Pledge Arena and a few baseball stadiums, but I've seen something similar at a walk-up beer fridge during a Nets game at the Barclays Center.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by rsynnott on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:54PM (#35033819)
If you have a US-wide convenience store chain with a multi-billion-dollar company behind it, and you have 29 stores after six years, well... I mean, it's not exactly a stand-out success, is it?
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by cowsandmilk on Sunday March 05, 2023 @06:22PM (#35035319)
well, Amazon Go isn't the only cashierless brand in Amazon's portfolio. It was the experimental small store. They're moving towards deploying the technology in Whole Foods and Amazon Fresh stores.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by gumby on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:32PM (#35037244)
I assumed that every one of those stores were experiments or at least test jigs, and closing or opening them means nothing to anyone outside Amazon.

NYC is a tough market because there is so much competition. But if you're not trying to make money yet you can learn a lot. Perhaps they learnt that New Yorkers don't have the patience to install an app. You generally don't wait that long in a bodega -- I expect to wait longer inside a gas station on the Interstate!

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by sentientslug on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:13PM (#35045047)
Just because they're blowing money on it doesn't mean it's a successful concept
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by pas on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:00PM (#35032740)
It could have been intentionally set to a more expensive price level, to manage the number of people using it. (To manage the "load" on the product development team, because if 2% of all users encounter some problems - or otherwise need support - then it's not scalable.)
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by jedberg on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:17PM (#35032910)
> Isn't the whole point of Amazon generally, and these stores specifically in not having staff, that it's supposed to be cheaper?

I'm pretty sure the goal is to have a higher profit margin than competitors by leveraging technology, not lower prices.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by emodendroket on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:03PM (#35033382)
I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the long-term goal but in reality it was not yet cheaper. Automation often proves more difficult than one would expect.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by oblio on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:38PM (#35033692)
https://xkcd.com/1319/

This should be branded on the forehead of every CEO of a company that promises full self driving capabilities for cars before 2030 and cryptocurrency mass adoption, also before 2030.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by mjevans on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:31PM (#35036441)
The image caption text seems very fitting as well. Not quite the dictionary definition of auto-mation but maybe it should be.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by vhold on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:52PM (#35033808)
My hunch is that the store wasn't meant to be particularly popular with lots of customers, it was meant to demonstrate technologies they wanted to sell to businesses.

https://aws.amazon.com/just-walk-out/

https://aws.amazon.com/one/

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by desiarnezjr on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:25PM (#35034115)
They've employed a "Amazon is the first and best customer" for most of the services they've launched. Amazon.com / AWS is an example.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by gumby on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:36PM (#35037273)
Was Amazon actually the first customer for AWS (being a very early customer counts). I've heard that they were, but I've also heard that the AWS guys designed for a different customer base first.

Like the eBay Pez story it makes sense and ads credibility for the narrative to be that Amazon was the first customer for AWS. But it feels like a very unamazon thing to do, given that so much of its customer base isn't running the kind of enterprise jobs that an Amazon scale company needs.

(Either way I imagine almost all of Amazon does run on AWS these days and I'm sure the transition took a long time)

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by fire on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:53AM (#35040379)
iirc aws exists mainly because amazon kept needing capacity, and after solving that problem it then had a bunch of excess capacity
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by Delphiza on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:37AM (#35040782)
Excess capacity story is a myth. Frequently corrected/debunked by Werner Vogels.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by bestnameever on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:19PM (#35034042)
They also recently opened cashierless Whole Food locations that use the same technology. I would not be surprised if some of these Gp stores were never intended to stay open but rather existed as a concept and to test ideas.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by boh on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:53PM (#35032056)
I think "nobody ever went there" is difficult to gauge since most purchases are very quick. Typical purchase would take 30-60 seconds for me to make. Since people are quick in/quick out it seems less people shop there.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by Talanes on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:13PM (#35033475)
I'm a smoker who worked next to one of these stores, so I spent a good deal of time on the curb outside. I'd see multiple people enter and exit the CVS anytime I was out there, but I'm not sure I ever saw anyone do more than stand outside the Amazon Go trying to figure out what it was before moving on.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by HDThoreaun on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:45PM (#35032617)
The food was just really, really bad. The ones near me stocked a bunch of pre made meals and they were all horrible. I can't wait for this tech to get into my grocery store, but the convenience stores were not it.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by sammalloy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:37PM (#35033681)
My intuition tells me this is the problem. I moved away from purchasing any type of grab and go food about ten years ago and I think a lot of consumers have joined me.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by twelve40 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:44PM (#35033756)
it might never make it, depends on where you live. where I live, they were banned because must accept cash, and they can't sell things like booze because id checks, so you end up having a bunch of humans around anyway, which kind of defeats the purpose of installing hundreds of cameras and other expensive systems.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by CydeWeys on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:15PM (#35034008)
Automated cash registers exist and are widely used, and are much simpler technologically than a scanner-less checkout. Amazon is choosing not to use them.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by phphphphp on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:09PM (#35032832)
I don't know if they've evolved their approach, if my local store is an outlier, or if yours was an outlier, but I live near an Amazon store and go in a few times per week: the experience you describe doesn't match my experience. Over maybe 100 visits: there's usually a few people in there at minimum, the food is pretty good (as far as convenience food store goes) and prices are the same as similar stores. I sometimes have to dance through a crowd of people struggling to get in.

I wouldn't say the concept is a huge success because... it's a convenience store, and location is far more important than anything else, so there's a pretty low ceiling on what a convenience store can achieve beyond being in a good location, but it is certainly convenient.

(As far as business goes, they seem like a cute experiment that has escaped the pointless novelty stage but hasn't reached the industry disruption stage ('cause there isn't one) and so is floating aimlessly in the middle space where they probably can just about justify keeping them around.)

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by novok on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:21PM (#35032946)
For a convenience store, they were missing items you'd find reliably in 7-11s, like charging cables or headphones, at least when i asked the guy at the front.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by grogenaut on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:39PM (#35033705)
The food was good quality and very fast. It was basically a micro cafeteria for my building. I went there daily for the soda and sushi or salad until we had our catered lunches back. This is the Stewart location in Seattle... Which there isn't much food around right nowand is across the street from my office
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by animex on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:00PM (#35033876)
If I were an automated store that relied on a charged mobile phone I wouldn't sell charging cables either! :-)
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by mattmanser on Sunday March 05, 2023 @06:12PM (#35035246)
They aren't things people buy regularly, that's a niche thing.

7-11s will be selling cheap and nasty cables and headphones at huge markups to even justify the tiny amount of shelf space they occupy.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by emodendroket on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:01PM (#35033353)
If you’re charging way more than surrounding stores going all-in on quinoa seems like it’s a sound strategy, or maybe would have been one in the the recent past.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by rsynnott on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:52PM (#35033803)
> two people standing by to help people install the Go app on their phones and explain the concept

That feels like a problem with the concept, really. That's one more than you need for conventional automatic checkouts.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by nivenkos on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:58PM (#35033863)
When I was in Seattle it was pretty cheap lunch option.

Although Whole Foods had better food for the same price tbh.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by oceanplexian on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:18PM (#35034040)
This will be huge rant but as someone who worked right next to one of these in San Francisco I didn’t use it because it was obnoxiously annoying.

Speaking as someone technically inclined who writes code for a living, I don’t want to have to scan a QR code or use an App to go through some weird robot gate to buy a thing from the automated store. And that’s (me), not the average Joe Blow who can’t even figure out how to open the calculator app on his phone.

It was a terrible idea from the start and 10x more convenient to walk into a corner market, grab a drink and hand the cashier a few $1’s from my wallet. All this super advanced technology and it has zero real world benefit or time savings for normal human beings.

Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by rr808 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @06:34PM (#35035428)
I go to the one in Brookfield a few times a week. Its been getting busier every month, often now there are 5+ people at a time in the store.
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by 1letterunixname on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:49PM (#35036970)
My interpretation is the tech worked but they got greedy, and failed at supply and demand optimization. (Failed at execution.)
Re:Amazon Is Closing Its Cashierless Stores in NYC, San Fran... by ElfinTrousers on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:13AM (#35041219)
There's nothing wrong with quinoa. Makes excellent insulation or packaging material. Some crazy bastards will even try and eat it.