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Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pharmakom on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:00AM (#34567291)
I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates. The evidence shows they are not very good, perhaps even worse than the Russell Group average. We need to find better indicators of ability; this cannot go on.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by traceroute66 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:40AM (#34567551)
> I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates.

Yup. As the old joke goes ...

How do you know someone went to Oxford ? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by samwillis on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:07AM (#34567341)
Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities, I think "fetish" for their grads is going too far. I think it's that there is an expectation in some sectors that an Oxbridge grad is capable of working in wider areas than they are necessarily qualified. To much weight is place on the oxbridge "brand".

The unfortunate thing is that we have been governed by a party which takes that unhealthy attitude towards senior party members, they have always been more about who you know than what you know. You don't see the same proportion of Oxbridge grads in the current opposition.

Slightly anecdotal, my first job after graduating (from former polytechnic Loughborough) was in Cambridge for a company formed by a couple of Cambridge grads. There was a higher proportion of non Oxbridge grads at the company, I think we tended to have more practical experience.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by newsclues on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:14AM (#34567395)
Universities aren't just places of learning, but designed to select leaders through the state.

How does it select leaders? By finding the most talented, or by finding those who are controllable?

Seems like the institutions are dual use.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pharmakom on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:34AM (#34567925)
Oxbridge selects for upper / upper-middle class polish and above average - but probably not exceptional and definitely not neurodivergent - intelligence.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by biofox on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#34568627)
Having been to both institutions, I can assure you that the comp sci and STEM programmes are dominated by neurodivergent types. Those aren't the people going into politics though.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:09AM (#34567748)
The British political system isn't hiring Scientists, Engineers or MBA graduates out of Cambridge. It's also about Eton. Look at the last 3 that won elections:

David Cameron - Eton, Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, went straight into politics.

Theresa May studied Geography at Oxford, worked at Bank of England and a few other institutions for a while.

Boris Johnson - Eton, study of the Classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy. Worked as a journalist, was fired for lying, then became a politician.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:17AM (#34567799)
Eton is more important. Children go to Eton. They dont chose to go. Their wealthy parents send them. Eton is where elite families form the bonds that are the backbone of the UK elite. Oxbridge is just the finishing school.

How many politicians are hired or promoted by prime ministers not because of quality or background but social debts between families? Nobody really tracks those relationships.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by skippyboxedhero on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:47AM (#34568027)
No, it isn't. People outside the UK have this fascination with Eton. And don't seem to realise that there are hundreds of other independent schools, grammar schools (which are often as good or better than many independent schools), and (if we are talking about history) grant-maintained schools.

Eton isn't regarded as a particularly good school. It is relatively expensive, and preferred by people outside the UK. Their academic results aren't that strong.

And social connections are an aspect of almost every political party. Blair hired almost everyone in Derry Irvine's chambers. Most of the SNP are not only friends, they are actually related to each other. The Tories are possibly the least incestuous because Cameron made a concerted effort to widen the reach of the party in the mid-2000s (this is why the current Cabinet is so diverse).

The reason why there is a concentration of Oxbridge is because, when most of these people went to uni, they were far and away the best. In Scotland, you see the exact same thing with Edinburgh (and strangely, no-one talks about the fact that almost of Sturgeon's clique went to Glasgow...which is, generally, an inferior university). And what you are actually seeing now is that more and more politicians are going to other universities reflecting the fact that non-Oxbridge unis caught up in the 90/00s (and recently, they have dropped off far more...Imperial is ahead in sciences, Oxford PPE is still very good though).

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:00AM (#34568138)
"Eton" stands for that class of schools, just as "oxbridge" really covers a cluster of elite institutions.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by skippyboxedhero on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:21AM (#34568337)
The person isn't referring to the Eton group. You know this.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by eynsham on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:25AM (#34568904)
Nonsense. Which?
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by heilei on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:37AM (#34567949)
> Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities

Looking at Instagram there are undeniably many physically fit Americans. In reality their physical fitness is notable because it is relatively rare.

Elite universities are sustainable in an industrial society where scarcity of resources means there are only so many high positions.

In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource. Elite universities then instead mean you have a lack of resources.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by defrost on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:43AM (#34567996)
> In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource.

Err, no.

Don't get me wrong, the Oxbridge system accepts, fosters and matriculates some very bright, very smart people.

But that is not at all what the core of the "Elite University" system is about, it's about connections and maintaining a single degree of freedom between the families that collectively hold > 90% of the wealth, resources, and influence within UK society.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by lozenge on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:08AM (#34568204)
It makes more sense to call it the Eton system. Oxbridge is accessible for many smart young people, but in itself that does not invite you to the political elite. It's Eton and a couple of other schools.

Pretty much any male politician whose official actions could be described as inhuman or sociopathic has been through boarding school trauma.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by heilei on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:10AM (#34568759)
I think we are mostly on the same page. Elite universities are fine in a industrial society because you are more limited by physical resources. South Korea does relatively well being run by relatively few rich families. Because it only takes so many executive, managers or engineers to run factories refining natural resource. An elite university can produce the people necessary to fill those slots.

In a post-industrial society, or beyond that, you aren't tied to physical resource in the same way. Instead you are limited by the amount of people with relevant knowledge. The existence of elite universities in such a society is really more saying that you can't produce enough people and opportunities.

Arriving at a village finding there is only one person with a car you don't say "wow, this guy is successful" you say "ouch, this is a poor village" even if that is the most successful person in the village. Because these days we expect cars and if everyone had cars he wouldn't stand out as successful.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by vsyicujjff on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:35AM (#34569008)
NB, in current UK English "matriculation" describes the process whereby the student is formally enrolled by the university. It is a formality and happens after they arrive at the university but before they are taught anything. A matriculation photo is taken by the college at the beginning of the first term. That is all there is to it.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by auctoritas on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:27PM (#34571056)
As long as there are people much smarter than other people, there will be universities much more prestigious than other universities.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pricechild on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:26AM (#34567458)
> We need to find ...

Who is "We" here?

I think it would be reasonable to claim the two main parties come from very similar backgrounds. Both seem to be happy continuing with maintaining their status quo.

Without their consent, is it likely or possible to see a third option rise?

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pjc50 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:14AM (#34567775)
It's remarkable how the SNP have taken over and dominated Scottish politics by having exactly one radical policy and otherwise being a sort of Merkelist centre-right government. But that's undoubtedly linked to the use of AMS at the Scottish Parliament.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by WeylandYutani on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:39AM (#34569762)
Merkel presided over economic growth. The Torry government saw the UK economy barely move.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by charlieyu1 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:10AM (#34567358)
I blame the recruiters.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pjc50 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:12AM (#34567768)
The hiring is not being driven by ability, it's being driven by connections. Oxford PPE graduates are being hired .. by other Oxford PPE graduates. And then promoted in the newspapers by the same.
Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by morbia on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:45AM (#34568012)
Some anecdotal evidence ahead.

I've been interviewing graduates in the UK for many years now from a very broad range of universities, all focused on CS or stem degrees.

In my experience, I've yet to interview an oxbridge graduate who wasn't at least great academically, and this is speaking as someone who went to a lesser university. Clearly whatever standards they have for teaching and entry selection criteria really work.

That said, graduates from other universities are easily on par with oxbridge, just that there were some total morons amongst their peers as well.

In my opinion, the problem is not that the UK fetishes oxbridge candidates, the problem is politics is dominated by arts and ppe graduates which does not offer the problem solving skills stem degrees do. I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by traceroute66 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:11AM (#34568240)
> I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them.

The other half of the problem is that the archaic UK parliament needs to change, its not fit for the 21st century.

For example ...

MP's perks and expenses - why do MPs get HEAVILY subsidised food and drink ? why do they get such generous expenses ? why do they get Friday's off ? why do they get so many recess holidays ? why does the whole place shut down for party conference silly season ?

Prime Minister's Questions - Its a disgrace. The clue is in the word "Questions". Instead it's a farcical theatrical display where someone asks a question and then the Prime Minister doesn't answer it and/or the Prime Minister's backbenches ensure the answer gets drowned out in noise.

Planted Questons - All the planted questions from the Prime Minister's back benches. What's all that about ? Do they really think people are that stupid ?

Too many "gentleman's agreements" - For example, what's with the whole "you can 'unknowingly' lie, but you can't accuse others of lying" thing ?

Lack of independent scrutiny - Enquiries and investigations are all based on the "gentleman's agreement" that the Prime Minister can be trusted to be a "good man" and will therefore, of course, launch any necessary investigations into alleged acts of wrong doing. However as we saw with Johnson, well ....

Ministerial Code - The ultimate joke. A code with no teeth. Again, Johnson demonstrated how circles could be run round it.

Archaic "parliamentary protocol" - So many examples here, perhaps one of the most infamous is Christopher Chope MP shouting "object" and blocking progress of the Up-skirting bill. The perogueing of parliament by the Johnson government in relation to Brexit is another.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by randomdata on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:37AM (#34569027)
> why do they get so many recess holidays ?

Because the bulk of the work of an MP is in being at home spending time talking to the bosses (i.e. the constituents) to ensure that the correct message is brought back to the central meeting place (i.e. parliament). After all, you, the constituent, are hiring the representative to carry your message to the central meeting place so you don't have to make the trip yourself. But you still have to make your message known. MPs are most definitely not mind readers who can simply be elected and then never spoken to again. It is a time consuming process to sit down with each and every constituent to hear their voice.

And, well, I guess if an MP really is a mind reader and doing such a great job that his bosses don't feel the need to talk during these recess periods, why not allow a nice vacation? An MP figuring out how to be more efficient than other MPs shouldn't be penalized. The recess will still be necessary for the poorly performing MPs to go home and get tuned in by their bosses.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by traceroute66 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:47AM (#34569876)
> MP is in being at home spending time talking to the bosses (i.e. the constituents)

Its awfully cute when people think that's an acceptable answer, it goes awfully well with that other well known phrase "write to your MP about it".

I know sufficient people across the length and breadth of the UK to know that the reality is that MPs (perhaps especially those who fly the Conservative flag) will do their utmost to avoid and fob off their constituents.

If I had a penny for every person who told me they wrote to their MP and either received no reply or received two-pages of pre-prepared boilerplate that didn't answer the question ... I'd be rich.

As for MPs who have extraordinarily well-paid "advisor" jobs on the side, what's your reasoning for that ?

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by pmyteh on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:03PM (#34570069)
I interned briefly for an MP when I was a student. She got Sunday morning off, and spent the rest of the week in Parliament, in committee, in meetings, on the train (reading papers), in the constituency office, or attending political events. She worked extraordinary hours, which isn't unusual.

If you want to ignore your constituents and not bother (and are in a safe seat) you might do less than half of that. But MPs, as a group, are very hard working. I also think that the way we select MPs, incentivise them, and manage them is awful and that's one of the many reasons why the institution of parliament is fairly crap. Unjustified cynicism about individuals is unlikely to fix that.

I do apologise for the form letters, though. That's almost always staff work, with the MP signing the result after a brief skim. We got a lot of mail and much of it was repetitive or crankish so the replies weren't always artisanal...

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by randomdata on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:06PM (#34570108)
Like with any organization, it is not unusual to hire bad employees. Of course, when you do hire a bad employee you don’t write them a friendly letter and call it a day. You hunt them down and talk to them face to face. Maybe you’ll even have to yell and scream until they cry to get your point across. Hopefully you will choose better next time.

It’s never fun being the boss, but given that you’ve accepted the role you can be a good boss and stand up to your workers, even as much as they try hard to avoid you, or accept your failings and let your organization fall apart. Your choice.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by traceroute66 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:22PM (#34570303)
> Hopefully you will choose better next time.

Aah yes, another favourite old-chestnut, the old "well, you can vote differently next time".

Trouble is that one falls apart when you are reminded that the UK has FPTP (First Past The Post) and not PR (Proportion Representation).

As a result, most people's votes don't really count for much, and you end up with safe seats and all sorts of other problems.

But it favours the big-two parties and hence, like many other problems with UK politics and parliament, it will (likely) never change.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by randomdata on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:34PM (#34570434)
FPTP is perfectly fine for electing a representative. I might even argue that it is best electoral system for selecting a representative. It is how most organizations choose between a set of employees and it works well enough.

FPTP fails hard when parties get thrown into the mix. But that is when you should stop to ask yourself why are you accepting parties in the first place? The Westminster system really isn't well suited to having parties, even if it has grown to accept them.

Re:'We Are Being Levelled Down’: Why the UK’s Wealth Gap Is ... by morbia on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:49AM (#34569134)
A computer scientist would see all that as technical debt that needs to be resolved to streamline due process. PPE graduates see it as a grandiose theatre which adds gravitas to the process.

I think my point still stands, the whole system could be transformed if some real problem solvers involved. Alas, I don't see it happening any time soon.