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Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by BirAdam on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:46PM (#34421785)
As far as I know, the Industrial Revolution started with coal mining. As shafts got deeper there was a need to pump in water and air, and then to lift product out. These steam engines at the site could run on low quality coal allowing all of the good stuff to be sold. The Industrial Revolution really started with these mines in the UK.

As regards slavery and other factors, once the steam engines were invented and began making the companies who owned them more productive, human labor was outcompeted. Slave labor is not free as humans are quite expensive in food, water, shelter, medical care, and support for these things. Humans also require rest, and restrooms. Given that humans prefer not be enslaved, there’s also a cost to capture. Once an economic replacement for slavery and/or indentured servitude is available, these practices tend to disappear. Even animal labor usually disappears when machines are available, as animals require the same basic care that machines do not. In the USA, slavery hung around longer than it did in Europe largely due to reward for the capture of runaways provided by government, as well as a late start to industrialization.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by perrygeo on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:57PM (#34421915)
Exactly. We have plenty of examples of past civilizations experiencing similar economic conditions, slavery, etc. So why didn't e.g. the Romans have an industrial revolution of this scale? Coal (and exploitation of fossil fuels more generally) is the singular factor that differentiates the industrial revolution from everything before it.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by akiselev on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:09PM (#34422052)
The Romans had coal [1]. The Greeks had even come up with a design that (remotely) resembles a steam engine [2]. What they didn’t have was the rest of the “tech tree” leading up to a usable steam engine, mostly metallurgy and the physics of work/energy.

We can point to the first industry to truly mechanize as the beginning of the revolution but the technologies that got us there were legion.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Roman_Britain#Coal

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by goatlover on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:29PM (#34422226)
So did Ancient China, prior to the Romans.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by runsWphotons on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:44PM (#34422372)
China had steam engines?
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by ska on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:39PM (#34422793)
Sort of; so did Egypt - but these were more steam devices not engines per se. I think the limiting factor was metallurgy & pressure vessel design before you can do something like Watt did.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by woolion on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:01AM (#34424449)
Do you have references? I'd be interested to learn about the subject. Quick search gave me [0] for Egypt and [1] for China, and both answers seem to be "not really".

[0] https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/1991/was-the-steam-e...

[1] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2012/did-the-chi...

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by marcusverus on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @09:11AM (#34426755)
The Aeolipile has got to be one of the greatest "what if" moments in human history. I can't help but look at it and feel like humanity was one serendipitous moment away from kicking off the industrial revolution 1700 years earlier. And what would the world look like if Egypt had been the first to industrialize?! It boggles the mind.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by sinuhe69 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:11PM (#34422069)
Industrial Revolution of course requires industrial machines. So as long as the machines are not invented, no revolution can start.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by mikewarot on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:20AM (#34424244)
There was a workshop turning out the Antikythera mechanism, it wasn't a one-off device. It had a user manual.

Lathes go ever further back.

Whoever built the pyramids had sufficient precision to make flat surfaces similar to modern surface plates.

The machines have been around for a very long time, powering them with other machines was part of it.

There's a lot to untangle here.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by fsckboy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:32AM (#34424299)
> Industrial Revolution of course requires industrial machines. So as long as the machines are not invented, no revolution can start.

you clearly are not giving enough credit to slavery which is the whole point of this exercise. How are we going to build a case for reparations with you talking like that? :)

I'm not defending anything about slavery, but just as impoverished working class Britons contributed little to the British industrial revolution, but did both suffer and benefit from it, the same goes for slaves. The industrialization of industry would not have been possible without the industrialization of agriculture which created an unemployed labor pool available for urban industrial revolutionary work, just as we saw play out in the recent history of China.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by coremoff on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @07:43AM (#34426006)
analaguously, I got the impression from the article and the discussion here that slavery was a dead-end trap; a local maxima - without pain being experienced by people who had the ability to change things, there wasn't much incentive to make such change - "just buy more slaves"/"just work the slaves harder"
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by vixen99 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:17AM (#34424530)
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by dhconnelly on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:48PM (#34422405)
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Archelaos on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:05PM (#34422544)
Bret C. Devereaux's wrote a very interesting article on this topic in his blog. See: https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...

His central observation is that the Industrial Revolution involves "coal, steam engines, textile manufacture and above all the harnessing of a new source of energy in the economy", but that "each innovation in the chain required not merely the discovery of the principle, but also the design and an economically viable use-case to all line up in order to have impact."

Thomas Newcomen’s atmospheric steam engine from 1712 were so inefficient that it made only economic sense in circumstances where energy source is very, very cheap. That was inside of coal mines (not in any other kind of mine), because there coal was cheapest. So the Industrial Revolution required as a starting point that all other kinds of energy sources were so expensive that coal mines made sense, and not any kind of coal mines, but deep coal mines that required a lot of effort to pump water out of them. In other kinds of mines horses would have been cheaper than an atmospheric steam engine. In other words, intensive coal mining had to come first and then the Industrial Revolution followed, not the other way round.

It took over half a century, until 1776, that the steam engine in James Watt's desing had been improved so much that its use made economic sense outside of coal mines, namely in the textile industry. It was in the 1700s that looms and especially spinning machines had improved so much that their combination with Watt's steam engine made sense.

Then there was the combination of steam engines with new methods for drilling cannons. The cylinders needed for steam engines used technologies that had been improved over a long period of time in gun production. Then the steam engine itself was combined with the new invention of drilling cannon barrels (instead of casting them). This resulted in better cannons and also helped to further improve the cylinders for the steam engines.

So why not the Romans? -- Devereaux writes:

"_none_ of these precursors were in place. The Romans made some use of mineral coal as a heating element or fuel, but it was decidedly secondary to their use of wood and where necessary charcoal. The Romans used rotational energy via watermills to mill grain, but not to spin thread. Even if they had the spinning wheel (and they didn’t; they’re still spinning with drop spindles), the standard Mediterranean period loom, the warp-weighted loom, was roughly an order of magnitude less efficient than the flying shuttle loom, so the Roman economy couldn’t have handled all of the thread the spinning wheel could produce."

"And of course the Romans had put functionally no effort into figuring out how to make efficient pressure-cylinders, because they had absolutely no use for them. Remember that by the time Newcomen is designing his steam engine, the kings and parliaments of Europe have been effectively obsessed with who could build the best pressure-cylinder (and then plug it at one end, making a cannon) for three centuries because success in war depended in part on having the best cannon. If you had given the Romans the designs for a Newcomen steam engine, they couldn’t have built it without developing whole new technologies for the purpose (or casting every part in bronze, which introduces its own problems) and then wouldn’t have had any profitable use to put it to."

"All of which is why simple graphs of things like ‘global historical GDP’ can be a bit deceptive: there’s a lot of particularity beneath the basic statistics of production because technologies are contingent and path dependent."

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by rnk on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:15PM (#34423016)
Fascinating, the combination of need (more spinning machines could significantly improve use of thread spinning), the availability of coal plus the steam engines that were improved for coal mining use (bringing up the coal, pulling water out). It kind of all came together. Then boom.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by galaxyLogic on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:20AM (#34423952)
So, coal-mining needed (and had) coal to power steam-engines which helped them produce more coal more cheaply.

In other words there was a feedback loop: More coal meant more coal could be mined. A virtuous cycle, that kicked off the industrial revolution.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by kitd on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:12AM (#34424513)
This is a good argument. I would only add one thing to it: a scientific understanding of the principles behind the new technologies makes major step changes in mechanised capabilities possible ("paradigm shifts" urgh), and probably explains why the Industrial revolution didn't happen in Greece or Rome.

It's those major step changes that open up the doors to unforeseen opportunities and make previously unviable businesses economically possible.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:29AM (#34426374)
Yes - the UK had the Royal Society pioneering the idea of organised research and result sharing on a national and eventually on an international scale.

Before that "research" wasn't really a thing. Discussions between intellectuals were scholastic and often implicitly about political status. The scientific tradition of hands-on experimentation and observation shifted the emphasis to building and trading rather than debating and conquering.

So effectively the UK invented the concept of invention. Other cultures were imperial, martial, and slave-owning, and ambitious men didn't concern themselves with hands-on work. That was for tradesmen and slaves. Although some invention happened, it was outside the main power hierarchy. It wasn't a tradition.

The UK - only partially, but enough - combined mercantile opportunism with practical invention. It took about a century, but invention became a recognisable tradition in its own right, and a credible high-reward career path for ambitious people. (Mostly men of course. But even so.)

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by onos on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:06PM (#34422024)
Agree. One comment though: a 30 year gap between uk and USA outlawing slavery doesn’t seem very significant on the 200k year timescale of human existence.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:12PM (#34422602)
We are talking about a much longer change than just 30 years. Serfdom was rare in the UK by 1400 long before the American revolution or steam power.

As to slavery “no legislation was ever passed in England that legalised slavery. In the Somerset case of 1772, Lord Mansfield ruled that, as slavery was not recognised by English law, James Somerset, a slave who had been brought to England and then escaped, could not be forcibly sent to Jamaica for sale, and he was set free. In Scotland colliery slaves were still in use until 1799 where an act was passed which established their freedom and made this slavery and bondage illegal.” English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade, but that was pure capitalism at work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by adventured on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:38PM (#34422791)
> Serfdom was rare in the UK by 1400

You're of course only talking about local slavery in the UK. They were among the primary slave traders outside of their home territory. The British Empire and its prominent subjects traded in millions of slaves between 1400 and 1800. Centuries of profit from that slave trade helped fuel investment into industrialization across the UK.

This is a common escape for European apologists of slavery (whether in North or South America). Europe has largely gotten to avoid the consequences of their slave trade (they properly owe many trillions of dollars in reparations). The US history of slavery has nothing on the scale of European slavery - 12+ million slaves across the Americas (and that's merely the first generation number).

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:47PM (#34422846)
I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade”

The point was slavery was economically and politically viable in the American south far longer than Europe. It’s a reasonable argument to suggest Europe outsourced and profited from slavery, but it also wasn’t in peoples faces just as few people consider the working conditions of the 3rd world today when they buy stuff.

Anyway, the slave trade wasn’t that profitable for England. Profits where mostly split between Portugal, Britain, Spain, France, the Netherlands, and Denmark with no country having a massive advantage. Divide 12.8 million people across 400 years and then further split profits between multiple countries and it was a tiny rounding error for the European countries involved. It wasn’t even that profitable for the merchants due to the long trips and high risks involved.

PS: I don’t mean this to be apologist, more pointing out how minimal the gains required before people would inflict horrific amount of suffering.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by fsckboy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:26AM (#34424275)
>I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade”

You didn't actually mention that slavery was legal in many British crown colonies including the American colonies, which wasn't just "happy participation by merchants", but was day to day life for many UK subjects. "Slavery ended in the British Empire after the Slavery Abolition Act came into play in 1833", about 30 years before it ended in the US, a former British Colony independent less than 100 years at that time, a short time by any standards.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:57AM (#34424428)
The 1833 act only impacted an economically insignificant number of people, which is why it could pass. Notably it excluded lands held but the British East India company.

“Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. They resettled many in Jamaica and the Bahamas” and no that’s not a euphemism for enslaving them in Jamaica and the Bahamas.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by bluGill on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @09:00AM (#34426646)
People in general treat the slaves near them well, and slaves far away bad. Having a slave as a household servant was most expensive because you treated them well, while you demanded many more hours of work from the slaves working outside who you didn't see as much. And if you can remove the slave to a distance mine - work them to death (that is dead, not the figure of speech), which was more efficient use of money.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by wutbrodo on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @12:31AM (#34423729)
My rough model was always simply that all the Western powers practiced African slavery in that period, in the regions in which it was useful (hot, humid, agricultural ones). The same dynamics that led America to have slavery in Mississippi but not Boston led the English/UK to have it in Kingston but not London
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:36AM (#34424322)
Just to be clear there was never African slavery in Kingston England.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:46PM (#34422839)
> Serfdom was rare in the UK by 1400

The UK didn’t exist before 1922. Or 1801, depending on how picky you want to be.

In Scotland it was still around till nearly 1800 (oddly, the last serfs were coal miners); in England it started its decline just before 1400 and was largely eliminated by 1500 and totally by 1600.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:53PM (#34422887)
1706/1707 is another reasonable start date to the UK depending on what is meant by that, but in this case I was referring to a geographic location not a political organization.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by bombcar on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:38AM (#34426450)
C’mon we all know that the UK started when Arthur pulled that sword out of the Stone ;).
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by viburnum on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:44PM (#34422368)
It was the profits from the slave trade that financed the initial capital investments in mining, factory, railroads, etc.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by rayiner on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:37PM (#34422777)
* * *
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by whatshisface on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:16PM (#34423028)
Slavery didn't really end, the same people worked on the same plantations... honestly, you wonder why they even starting a civil war over it.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by viburnum on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @11:22AM (#34428739)
The article was about Britain. As a matter of historical fact there's a link between the slave trade and industrial development in Britain. Maybe you're trying to defend capitalism or whatever with your hypothetical counterfactuals but that's what actually happened.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by WalterBright on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:47PM (#34422403)
Industrialization happened primarily in the free states, not the slave states.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by yieldcrv on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:00PM (#34422501)
This didn't happen in a vacuum, wall street was full of slave-labor company shares. The speculators and financiers were closer to the financial center.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by WalterBright on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:03PM (#34422535)
There was a lot more to free states than wall street. The industrialization happened all over those states, but not the slave ones.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by barry-cotter on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:44PM (#34422826)
Then how did countries with de minimis involvement in the slave trade like Germany, Italy or Austria-Hungary do so much better economically than Brazil? Four to six times as many slaves went to Brazil as to all of the modern USA. The Trans Saharan slave trade where Arabs enslaved Sub Saharan Africans started earlier, lasted longer and enslaved more people than the Trans Atlantic trade too. If slavery was the reason for the Industrial Revolution why aren’t we discussing this in Arabic?
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by biorach on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @07:37AM (#34425967)
> If slavery was the reason for the Industrial Revolution

That's not what the article is saying.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:19PM (#34422656)
Not really, the first steam engine was used in 1606 to drain a coal mine in Spain but they didn’t catch on til the early 1700’s.

England really industrialized via multiple waves transitioning cottage industry and water power driving drop hammers and other equipment to ever more industrial factories. It’s a surprisingly smooth transition where individual inventions like the spinning wheel just keep compounding and driving further increases in efficiency.

Steam power was only used at mines initially because mines where limited by geology. Unlike early factories you didn’t get to decide where the ideal place was you where stuck where the resources where located.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by shafyy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:31AM (#34423988)
According to Wikipedia, steam engines did go "mainstream" with the coal mine use case, at least to an important part:

The first commercially successful engine that could transmit continuous power to a machine was the atmospheric engine, invented by Thomas Newcomen around 1712. It improved on Savery's steam pump, using a piston as proposed by Papin. Newcomen's engine was relatively inefficient, and mostly used for pumping water. It worked by creating a partial vacuum by condensing steam under a piston within a cylinder. It was employed for draining mine workings at depths originally impractical using traditional means, and for providing reusable water for driving waterwheels at factories sited away from a suitable "head".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_engine#History

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Retric on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:23AM (#34424569)
The industrial revolution is generally considered to have started around 1760. That’s 50 years after adoption of the Thomas Newcomen steam engine and 150 years after steam engines where in use.

This shows it wasn’t specifically the steam engine that kicked things off, but rather a wide range of factors which eventually caused people to say something different was going on. The stated start of the industrial revolution is really quite arbitrary, but linking it to the seam engine is really a misunderstanding what was going on.

If you want to point to a single invention Benjamin Huntsman developing the crucible technique for steel production in 1740 had a larger impact on the early years of the first industrial revolution. But again it wasn’t any single invention the transition was simply continuous.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by shafyy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:51AM (#34425322)
You're right, I misread your comment. I thought that you said that steam engines weren't initially mainly used in coal mines.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by julianeon on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:50PM (#34422871)
> As far as I know, the Industrial Revolution started with coal mining.

I don't think that's correct. If you are looking for a one-sentence "how did the Industrial Revolution start" summary, I wouldn't use this.

My recollection was that things kicked off with the first mechanized mills, locating along streams which used hydraulic or steam power for their energy. Unfortunately I can't find or recall the book I was reading that tells this story, but that's my recollection.

Checking Wikipedia, that seems mostly accurate:

> Rapid industrialization first began in Britain, starting with mechanized spinning in the 1780s,[21] with high rates of growth in steam power and iron production occurring after 1800.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by whatshisface on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:13PM (#34423001)
>My recollection was that things kicked off with the first mechanized mills, locating along streams which used hydraulic or steam power for their energy.

That goes back to 3BC where the ancient greeks invented it, so I don't think that's a good candidate for the beginning of the industrial revolution. I get the association though, because it is a mechanical system harnessing non-animal power to do useful work.

https://www.greekboston.com/culture/ancient-history/water-mi...

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by julianeon on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:22PM (#34423070)
No, that's true. But to add detail, this is how things kicked off in America particularly, in the late 1700s or early 1800's. The first American mills that could mass produce stuff were located along streams that used the turning of the waterwheels to do their work.

I didn't find the book I was thinking of, but I think I've identified one of the main characters I was thinking of, Richard Arkwright. You can see that his biography broadly tracks what I'm describing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Arkwright

And I think I found the line which you could call the 'origin story' of the Industrial Revolution - the invention of the Spinning Frame (a water powered automation machine, if you will).

> Arkwright and John Smalley of Preston set up a small horse-driven factory at Nottingham. To obtain capital for expansion, Arkwright formed a partnership with Jedediah Strutt and Samuel Need, wealthy nonconformist hosiery manufacturers. In 1771, the partners built the world's first water-powered mill at Cromford, which covered both carding and spinning operations and employed 200 people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Arkwright

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by specialist on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @10:08AM (#34427505)
> To obtain capital for expansion, Arkwright formed a partnership with Jedediah Strutt and Samuel Need, wealthy nonconformist hosiery manufacturers.

This goes to u/qikInNdOutReply's point (cross-thread) about citizens with venture capital.

Knowing nothing about this, my hunch is there were many prerequisites.

Another interesting aspect (to me) is how some innovations (efforts) manage to avoid being snuff in their cribs. Everett's whole Diffusion of Innovation about the sociology of it all.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by notahacker on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:13AM (#34425138)
Mechanised mills existed in Roman times, but they didn't use them to mass produce textiles, they used them to grind flour for the local people. Similarly coal mining was around in Roman times (and they did transport that internationally) but Roman coal mines weren't deep pits pumped by steam engines. (The invention of the Newcomen engine is a good candidate for an early start date to the Industrial Revolution)

On a similar note, the Romans built quite a few canals, but "Canal Mania" in the UK involving a lot of capitalist ventures building extended transit networks across the UK is an arguable starting point for the Industrial Revolution

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by qikInNdOutReply on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:54AM (#34424756)
The romans had industrial scale water driven mills. But what you need to keep the running, when one emperor falls and another kingdom falters, is a empowered citizen ship with venture capital, that is out of reach of the king, making innovation resilient.

For me the industrial revolution started with the "familys" taking hold in the netherlands, england, germany - backing ventures, banking, becoming a powerhouse outside of the hierarchical power houses of olden times (king, serf) and not relying on militias, but lawyers, contracts and sometimes even rule of law (free cities).

Its the end of hierarchical anarchy (and yes, rome in some ways was just as anarchic if you fell out of grace with the emperor)..

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by tremon on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:29AM (#34425212)
What you're describing is more of a social revolution (upset of traditional societal structures). As always with history, the interesting question is whether the latter could have happened without the former.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by qikInNdOutReply on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @07:29AM (#34425914)
Its a pre-requisit, as a wittness i call into court venecia, were free enterprise lead to the cities bloom and the return of the feudal ruling structure among its trade partners (osman empire) lead to the decline of this "italian" silicon valley back into obscurity.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Venice/The-commune

Which by deduction means, that you need a trade supporting eco-system, without taxation on the moving of goods. Oceans prefered. Which means, that hermit kingdoms waylaying is the biggest innovation embargo.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Bouncingsoul1 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:56AM (#34426622)
Walter Scheidel argues Roman Collapse started the IR. https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691172187/es...
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by hnbad on Friday January 20, 2023 @06:17AM (#34451542)
> hierarchical anarchy

I have a vague idea what you're trying to describe but this phrase is completely self-contradictory.

Anarchy is the absence of hierarchies. I think you're using "anarchy" in its pejorative sense, roughly meaning "chaos" or "law of the jungle" but using it like this in a discussion about social structures is confusing at best.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Lio on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:40AM (#34425281)
I was always taught the industrial revolution started earlier than that with the work of people like Abraham Derby, the elder. For perspective, he died in 1717.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Darby_I

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by robbiep on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:48AM (#34425313)
Jesus fuck people, the article is literally about new approaches to this.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by Merrill on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @11:50PM (#34423542)
Slaves/serfs make economic sense primarily on a plantation/manor where they can be given use of a small plot where they construct a shelter and raise their own food. They receive little or no subsidies from the planter/lord.

The difference is that serfs are attached to the manor instead of being owned by the planter. Thus, serfs are not sold, but change lords by inheritance, marriage, or other changes in land rights. Europe was so densely populated that serfs probably had little or no cash value. If you had a manor, you already had serfs.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by fsckboy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:20AM (#34424251)
>The difference is that serfs are attached to the manor instead of being owned by the planter

just want to point out (though I'm not an expert) attaching serfs to the land was a step forward in serf rights. I think (particularly in eastern europe), serfs didn't necessarily have the right to stay on the land.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by wahern on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:57AM (#34425046)
I recently learned this, myself. Comparisons of slavery with serfdom are usually dismissed (understandably) as comparing apples and oranges, minimizing the harshness and depravity of chattel slavery in the Americas, and even interpreted as an attempt to minimize or at least distract from European and European-American culpability in the American slave trade by appropriating victimhood status. But in parts of the Russian Empire (in Europe, not Asia--though perhaps Asia, too?) there were serf markets well into the 19th century, notwithstanding laws that nominally prohibited the sale of serfs. Many immigrants to the Americas were surely not far removed from those circumstances, if not having fled them directly. So just on a purely factual basis, there indeed was chattel slavery in Europe of Europeans, ending not long before chattel slavery in the Americas--1888 in Brazil. That fact doesn't refute the latter criticisms, though. (And it also glosses over the fact that Slavic peoples weren't really considered "white" by most Western Europeans. Heck, even today that distinction lingers, detectable in the sentiments undergirding Brexit, e.g. in resentment of Polish laborers.)

Somewhat related, chattel slavery remained a thing in the Ottoman Empire well into the 20th century, albeit substantially diminished; and not completely outlawed until mid century. And I guess this is where a lot of white slavery hysteria in the U.S. originated[1], as in the Middle East owning Circassian slaves had long been a status symbol, so much so that over the centuries they significantly effected the genetics of ruling elite families through their popularity in harems. Circassians were literally the archetype for "white" in Hitler's Aryan racial system, so the trade in Circassians represented the epitome of white slavery. Though, perhaps the real horror regarding the Circassians is the Circassian Genocide at the hands of the Russians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide Sadly, when you delve into the history of ethnic cleaning by Russians, there are sadly many more stories like that.

[1] As opposed to the capture and sale of white Americans and Europeans by North African pirates. That's where I used to think the hysteria came from, but reading about the history of the Circassians, I suspect that's the real origin, or at least the more important dimension.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by eyelidlessness on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @11:54PM (#34423562)
> Once an economic replacement for slavery and/or indentured servitude is available, these practices tend to disappear.

Slavery is rampant in the world now. Quite a lot of it in service of the kinds of automation and productivity you describe, but in parts of the world where these discussions aren’t so casual. Slavery hasn’t been obsoleted, it’s been outsourced.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by sdenton4 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @12:34AM (#34423736)
I think the causality on slavery is backwards, and the article agrees... Shortages of low-skilled labor encourage automation, because then the (very expensive) automation process becomes cheap relative to labor. The article argues that labor shortages coinciding with excess capital paved the way for automation, which in turn reduced dependence on slavery in the long term.

In this sense, cheap labor is cheap, but also a bit of a trap: it doesn't scale into undreamt of use-cases the way that truly scalable automation tends to.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by qikInNdOutReply on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:08AM (#34424822)
It also does not reward backpropagation from material sciences.

My favourite example here is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrara_marble cause its something both fancied by romans and modern world alike and it was originally sourced by slaves with cludgels as stone masons.

But now its done with industrial tooling, by free man (well free to do whatever the market demands).

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by throwaway4aday on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:52AM (#34426571)
Why didn't the industrial revolution start in 1360 then?
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:58AM (#34424782)
>In the USA, slavery hung around longer than it did in Europe largely due to reward for the capture of runaways provided by government, as well as a late start to industrialization.

The story I was always told was that Eli Whitney's cotton gin made slavery economically viable for longer than it would have otherwise.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by bluGill on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:56AM (#34426613)
That is a factor too. Slavery is expensive because you have to feed the slave even when they are not working. Same problem applies to using horses, they eat even where the fields are plowed. Machines sitting idle do not cost additional capital (other than taxes) - of course machine sitting idle don't make their payments, but you can arrange those terms with the bank.

Before the cotton gin, wool was more popular because it was less labor. (I'm not sure how silk and flax fit in, but all have their own labor intensive parts pre mechanization). By making cotton cheaper, the labor needed to separate the seed from the cotton was much less and so it was more competitive with others despite the high labor costs elsewhere.

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by skapa_flow on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:55AM (#34425348)
I lately had an idea: Why did the industrial revolution start in the UK? Coal mining was probably a factor. But why in the UK? Coal deposits are abundant in other places as well. But the UK has cold, rainy winters. Coal is good for heating, not only for industrial purposes, like smelting metal. Trees have mostly been cut down by that time. I think they used them for ship building. So if you have the coal mining already there, the other steps are more likely to happen.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by BirAdam on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:51PM (#34432054)
Surface coal had to first be depleted before there was a need to go deeper where a machine provided benefit
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by PestoDiRucola on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @08:54AM (#34426599)
> as well as a late start to industrialization

This is true for the more rural southern states, northern states industrialized way earlier (which goes to prove the rest of your argument about slavery).

Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by phkahler on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @09:53AM (#34427286)
IIRC one of the oldest remaining steam engines was built for exactly that purpose. It is on display at the (poorly named IMHO) Henry Ford Museum in Michigan. I say poorly named because it isn't about him, it's about the history of industrialisation.
Re:A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industri... by pradn on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @10:02AM (#34427426)
I'd say the following factors added up:

1. A reason to create coal-driven machines in the first place (to pump water from mines, when labor and other fuel sources like timer were low), to kick-start the process of mechanical innovation

2. Enough technical/scientific knowhow + conditions for entrepreneurialism (inventor gets to actually make a profit) leading to progressive mechanical innovations, spreading to other sectors like textile manufacturing

3. Easy access to coal (near the surface, in Britain itself) to provide energy for the new machines

4. Access to raw materials to drive textile factories, namely cotton produced by slaves in the Americas

5. An market for low-cost textiles produced using machines, to a great extent India (Indian textile imports were taxed, and exports were encouraged)

6. Capital for new machines/factories, often derived from excess capital from slave-plantations + re-invested profits from industry

It's going to require quite a lot of expertise to tease out the relative importance of these factors, so us laymen should be okay with a general picture. It's okay to admit that.