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Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by Xeoncross on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:03PM (#34418001)
I'm wondering what data really drives the back-and-forth at big tech. We've seen google, amazon, microsoft, meta, etc.. do hiring freezes, then layoffs. Hiring freeze, then back open, or layoffs then more layoffs later.

I would expect a longer term plan than just looking forward or backwards one quarter which seems like what has been happening the last year. I would assume they had better information and insights than common investors, but the activity out of these companies in relation to hiring and layoffs has seemed to be as sudden as people changing their stock allocations.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by anonporridge on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:09PM (#34418121)
Mass layoffs give you the opportunity to quickly purge poor performers without as much paperwork. It's advantageous to have regular rolling layoffs because of this if you can justify them by economic conditions.

There's also an effect of wanting to do smaller, pulsating layoffs over the course of many months or even years rather than one massive layoff of the size you actually need, because ultimately no one knows exactly how the machine of a corporation works, and you have to be careful not to cut so deep that you go beyond cutting out fat and start to damage critical systems.

A rapid, 90% loss of workforce like what happened at Twitter might be what the company ultimately needed, but cutting that fast and deep is an insanely risky operation that could lead to a company hobbling along in a compensatory state until it finally falls to decompensatory systems collapse that you can't recover from.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by tikhonj on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:36PM (#34418564)
> Mass layoffs give you the opportunity to quickly purge poor performers without as much paperwork. It's advantageous to have regular rolling layoffs because of this if you can justify them by economic conditions.

I've heard people say this, but it seems contrary to how layoffs are run in practice:

• entire teams or divisions are often laid off with no eye towards individual employees' tenure, experience or skills

• decisions happen on a condensed time scale by higher-level executives—not exactly conducive to a nuanced view of individual employees' performance, which companies struggle to assess effectively at the best of times

The "common knowledge" about what layoffs accomplish and why they're necessary really doesn't match what happens on the ground.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:07PM (#34419134)
I've never seen a cold and calculated layoff. It's always been exasperated irrational arm-waving risk mitigation. The "good" people aren't kept - instead it's the ones that can navigate the political waters.

For every one competent executive there seems to be 5 deluded narcissistic idiots who will slash and burn people who are overqualified and under-utilized for the positions they've been incompetently assigned.

Now before you think I'm a victim of layoffs, I'm actually the political navigator. I constantly survive layoffs as I see the most talented people get let go, the best teams get broken up and reassigned, it's nuts.

One of the best techniques is to get yourself into what I call a "management island" - essentially you have either 0 or many bosses, just not 1. The next one is to be associated with a small bet - essentially a cheap investment that may yield a great long-term payoff. A third technique is to not attend too many events. Vagueness works in your favor. People should know generally but not specifically what you do. With details comes critiques so keep it ambiguous by staying quiet.

If you survive a layoff then you must not let a good crisis go to waste. Use the fog of the firing and the power vacuum to resituate yourself into this political dynamic as the dust settles. Of course these techniques only work at large companies. I learned all of these techniques from years in management.

There's more but that's a good start

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by adasdasdas on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:27PM (#34419485)
Yup, most mass layoffs are done without consulting the directly/skip managers who actually know who the strong performers are.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:07PM (#34420099)
No. Most layoffs are done by the managers being given either quotas or burn rate caps and tasked with producing lists of people to layoff.

The point of "many bosses" is if your manager knows you work on other projects, it's easier to leave you off the list.

The point of "no bosses" is no manager is tasked with considering you. You're not on anyone's books.

If you have to play the 1 boss game it's harder. Some managers will want to keep their most talented people, other managers are looking for team cohesion and want the most friendly while others will break their project into roles and then assign people on a sheet of paper into those roles and get rid of what they consider redundant.

Some bosses will want to get rid of their most expensive people on the logic that they'll have the easiest time finding other work or maybe they'll have to get rid of fewer when they're more expensive, while others might want to get rid of their cheapest with the logic that they'll be easier to replace in the future.

There's really no silver bullet way to survive that. You have to know who is making the decision and somehow guess how they'll do it well in advance of the event.

Almost nobody acts based on some objective logic, instead they have predictable patterns of behavior and varying modalities. That's why you need to shake the org structure and get out of that situation.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by adasdasdas on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:10PM (#34421394)
At least in my circle, I've found (for mass company wide layoffs)

1. Lower level managers usually find out them at the same time as IC's 2. Managers and directors can be part of the layoffs. 3. If a manager/director is part of the layoff, they are even less likely to be consulted in the process.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:44AM (#34424716)
Sure. That's because the org chart isn't ever the real chart. I mention elsewhere the real chart looks more like the Habsburg family tree especially the higher up you go - a bunch of surprising actual plays.

The rule of thumb is if they can't fire you they aren't really your boss.

For instance, at a previous firm, the COO, which ostensibly can be fired by the CEO was actually the brother of executor of the chief investment in the last round so the COO has a direct board connection and so he could actually fire the CEO with enough effort. Underneath the COO was a finance guy who had just come from a possible acquirer so really that guy could probably get them both fired if it meant a good payout for an acquire.

The tendrils are wacky which is why when a room of those people have to do actual work, it's not some shrewd rational calculated execution but instead just some hot mess

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by jmholla on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:12PM (#34421419)
> The point of "no bosses" is no manager is tasked with considering you. You're not on anyone's books. There's numerous ways of doing this if you're interested.

Can you speak more to this? I don't know that I've ever seen this somewhere I worked.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by nunez on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:15PM (#34423020)
I've only heard of this happening during really large mergers or situations where you are managed by someone so high up in the organization, you're effectively on your own.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:51PM (#34423261)
Sure.

You can be entrusted to work on your own little bet project for somebody in a C suite and you become so low on the priority that you're out of mind.

During a power vacuum, you can play teams off each other in a multiple bosses strategy and appeal upstream in the org chart. The exploit here is the company hierarchy in practice is closer to the Habsburg monarchy than some binary tree.

The multiple boss play can get you to a no boss play in this situation because each one will assume you're doing important things on other projects.

All of this requires a keen skill at social engineering. I worked at a place where I didn't have a meeting with anybody for about a year. I played the meetings off each other at first and they all slowly became optional and eventually I got them off my calendar.

I should probably use my time doing better things but I'm really lazy.

These are all hacks. YMMV.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by dugmartin on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:44PM (#34419761)
Good advice. It reads like the start of a modern corporate version of "The Prince".
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by 0cf8612b2e1e on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:15AM (#34424216)
The modern version of this is the 48 Laws of Power.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by mythhouse on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:44PM (#34419764)
you should write a substack or a podcast. Lots of ppl are oblivious to this stuff.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:34PM (#34420462)
Most of the tricks are easily discoverable hacks. It's best not to advertise it too loudly
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by ZhadruOmjar on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:28PM (#34421019)
Great write up and very useful in an industry where a lot of people seem to think "doing a good job" is enough to get recognised, lots of money and continuous promotions. The transition from IC into Management really needs a head shift and I think a lot of software engineers aren't prepared for the machinations of modern corps.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:38PM (#34421120)
I've gone in between both roles. I can be a CTO of a $50 million company and just another senior engineer at a $5 billion one.

Probably the most approachable explanation of this phenomena is in Reid Hoffman's blitzscaling.

Hold on while I switch to a desktop in order to find a link and I will come back and edit this soon.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by DenisM on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:59PM (#34421941)
How do you position yourself when looking for a job? Divergent background of this sort could be a liability.

And then you have to be explicit about what you want in your next role.

Do you have two different resumes?

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kristopolous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:56PM (#34422455)
I haven't had to look for a job in over a decade. They come to me.

No idea really

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by im3w1l on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:48PM (#34419818)
I have an alternative theory. In bad times consumers no longer want to pay for a cherry on top. So you go back to basics and lay off the people putting it there.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by solarmist on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:03PM (#34421344)
I'd adjust this and say the execs believe that, so they do it, whether or not it's true.

I seriously doubt these layoffs are from actual, measurable consumer responses.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by tr81 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:53PM (#34419899)
> Mass layoffs give you the opportunity to quickly purge poor performers without as much paperwork. It's advantageous to have regular rolling layoffs because of this if you can justify them by economic conditions.

Yeah, unfortunately, this is believed by so many low level employees that it hurts their confidence, if they ever are part of layoffs. I wish organizations really educated employees how layoffs work.

I was part of layoffs in 2008 in which my whole department was eliminated, including managers and their managers. The developers who were hurt the most, were the smartest ones who could not believe that C-level executives didn't see their contributions. Their egos were bruised and some even switched from development to other fields.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by MuffinFlavored on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:16PM (#34418232)
What % of their work force is 11k employees? Article says 5%.

Would also be curious to know what % of the 11k are engineers/breakdown by department/org, etc.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by anonporridge on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:20PM (#34418313)
Yeah, 5% is a small, manageable number. Small enough that if you find you accidentally cut important people or roles, you can quickly get them back.

The point in my second paragraph is that if the company actually needs a 15% layoff to maintain itself long term, it would be safest to do it in three smaller 5% waves rather than one fell swoop. After each layoff, you let the system settle and recover, making sure that the body is still generally healthy before continuing with the next operation.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by estebank on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:24PM (#34418378)
> it would be safest to do it in three smaller 5% waves rather than one fell swoop

This disregards the effect of repeated layoffs on the morale and mental health of human beings, which affects how "the system" settles and recovers.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by gota on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:41PM (#34418671)
Part of the second and third wave can take the form of a hiring freeze or slowdown. People who quit are not replaced and soon you have a 5% reduction in headcount
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by Aperocky on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:15PM (#34420208)
Only the best (or the dauntless, but they are a minority) quit in the present climate, soon the corporation will have a 3-5% reduction in their best performers.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by marcosdumay on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:23PM (#34420326)
So you further evaporate the Dead Sea?

How many competent people do you expect to stay until the end?

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by anonporridge on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:34PM (#34418539)
Absolutely!

I think it really depends on the overall health and strength of the corporate body and the external environmental conditions it's struggling to survive in. Sometimes ripping off the bandaid quickly is the best of many bad options.

However, you also have to consider that seeing a larger percentage of your teammates cut loose might be more psychologically damaging than just that one guy who everyone kind of knew was a poor performer anyway.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by jvanderbot on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:35PM (#34418548)
Generally speaking, they probably want about 5% loss / year, so they can continuously hire new starts and eliminate vacated positions as required.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by gowld on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:22PM (#34418352)
Why? What's wrong with firing people during other economic conditions?

Why would the paperwork be any different, whether it's a small layoff or a big payoff? Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V is cheap, Microsoft implemented it many times in many products.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by therealdrag0 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:35PM (#34418542)
It can be tedious to fire people. I know a manager at MS that has been struggling with a terrible performer for over a year. They are just now getting to the point of going through the processes (first gotta do RCA and try to fix etc) and having a paper trail down with HR to be able to fire them.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by drchopchop on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#34418439)
Firing IC's at large corporations usually involves some sort of a individual coaching/PIP plan. This takes time for managers and HR to write and implement, takes N weeks of observation, and creates nervousness in coworkers who think they might be next.

Much easier to do a Thanos-style snap and get rid of X% all at once, with no pre-warning or reasons required besides "challenging economic conditions".

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by munificent on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#34418434)
> What's wrong with firing people during other economic conditions?

Layoffs have a huge psychological impact on the people who didn't get cut. If you do layoffs at a time when the economy is booming and jobs are easy to find, you risk losing your best performers who don't want to be at a company that fires friends of theirs.

It's easier to fire people when jobs are scarce and people are already spooked and disinclined to try to switch jobs.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by t-writescode on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:26PM (#34418397)
Humans fire other humans. Layoffs allow for severance and unemployment, which can make the pain of firing someone and all the externalities that come with it far easier for a boss to swallow.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by moonchrome on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:46PM (#34420604)
If you heard Microsoft just did 11k layoffs and then you got a job offer from them how does that sound to you ? To me it sounds like I could be in the next round if I get hired on the wrong team.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by confidantlake on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:36PM (#34422294)
I declined an offer from Microsoft late last year, in large part because of earlier layoffs. I am sure I was not the only one.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by spacemadness on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:52PM (#34419882)
Why are we spreading the “poor performers are the ones let go” trope that hurts anyone laid off? That’s a very dangerous assumption to be spreading around blindly.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by ZhadruOmjar on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:29PM (#34421032)
It's simply not true and very observable if you've ever been at a company that does layoffs. Plenty of good teams get let go or entire groups in the company from management down are let go, it just doesn't make sense that they would all be "low-performers". Some low-performers will be caught up in layoffs, sure, but plenty will remain at the company too.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by andromeduck on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @10:24PM (#34436344)
Might be conflating groups with individuals. The teams/orgs that tend to be hit the hardest tend to be not the most productive/cutting edge except when they're research teams way out on the horizon.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by testrun on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:10PM (#34420839)
This is one of the worst things you can do in a company. GE did it starting with Jack Welch and since then the company is not the same.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by datavirtue on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:13PM (#34420870)
Logic doesn't hold up. The same hiring practices you used to acquire "poor performers" (or culture to create them) are still in place.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by ElectricSpoon on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:46PM (#34421181)
> Mass layoffs give you the opportunity to quickly purge poor performers

That would be true for poor performing projects. Try a bunch of projects; many don't take off; cut the chaff all at once.

What I've seen in various companies were cuts of all kinds of employees, regardless of their individual performance. Large cuts weren't about the employees but about the projects or teams. I've also lived through a cut which was basically reducing headcount across all teams. Cutting 11k employees isn't a micro-management thing; individual performers get hit all the same.

The fallback of some such cuts was that it took years to later re-acquire competent employees, especially since they were offering work conditions average for the market.

TLDR don't stay too long on projects or teams which aren't lucrative for the company, unless they are fun and you don't mind getting ejected from the company when cut comes.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by raydev on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:25AM (#34424583)
> Mass layoffs give you the opportunity to quickly purge poor performers without as much paperwork

This is repeated a lot but having lived through 3 layoffs (and survived 2) in my career, that has never been the case. Every time it seemed random, one in particular where EMs were upset that they didn't have the chance to pick their faves.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:11PM (#34418157)
I imagine it's three things. First and foremost, interest rates are up. Some development opportunities only make sense when loans are basically free. Second, the market's down, firing a bunch of people is a good way to boost stock prices in the short term, and people making these decisions are often primarily motivated by short term stock price gains. Third, big tech executives are heavily influenced by trends, they all talk to each other, and layoffs are trendy right now.

Layoffs are probably a bad idea, in general, given how expensive it is to hire new devs and bring them up to speed, but on the other hand, it's probably a pretty good way to eliminate orgs you wanted to get rid of anyway while blaming the economy. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that so many of Amazon's layoffs came from Alexa.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by Sevii on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:37PM (#34418582)
I think people over focus on poor performers when in reality layoffs are a great chance to get rid of teams and departments that don't make economic sense anymore.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by ethbr0 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:16PM (#34418240)
Assume a constant need to fire a decent chunk of the company.

If you fire when everyone else is hiring, the market asks you if your growth prospects have dimmed.

If you fire when everyone else is firing, the market says you're being financially responsible.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by gowld on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:24PM (#34418373)
> Assume a constant need to fire a decent chunk of the company.

Why?

If you are so good at identifying poor performers, fire them, and reap the profits of being leaner, more effective organization.

"The market" is a boogeyman used to rationalized everything.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by yCombLinks on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:04PM (#34419091)
Because every time you want to build a new product you risk that no one ends up wanting the product, or not enough people to justify keeping it going. Alternately once you have depleted all of your current ideas you don't have anything productive for those people to do.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by marcosdumay on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:26PM (#34420352)
> Alternately once you have depleted all of your current ideas you don't have anything productive for those people to do.

Ok, that can possibly happen. But if it constantly happens, you have problems.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by thrashh on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:17PM (#34418263)
Well if you’re not hiring, your competitor is picking up the talent

Plus the more people that you have, the faster you can get competitive products out to market

Could be a damned if you do, dammed if you don’t situation

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by redtriumph on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:54PM (#34419912)
> Plus the more people that you have, the faster you can get competitive products out to market

This is not always true. Do you have citation to back this up?

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by schlauerfox on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @06:33PM (#34421064)
Yeah, effectiveness is something too in monopoly tech firms. The Mythical Man Month https://archive.org/details/MythicalManMonth Steve Jobs on product dev vs marketing teams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by ipaddr on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:10PM (#34421400)
If you rephrased to say you have more opportunities to take more bets.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by thrashh on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @11:15AM (#34428617)
Well I said “can.”

It’s not always true but you can’t do the work of 6 people with 2.

I’ve definitely been on teams blocked by the number of people where getting even one more QA person sped things up a lot.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by SkyPuncher on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:30PM (#34418466)
IMO, cheap capital meant companies could take "dumb" risks. Now that interest rates are going up, they need more plausible returns on investment.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by rodgerd on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:11PM (#34418162)
I've been privy to execs sharing the "why" for stacked ranking, open plan, layoffs, and various other decisions. If you had some naive belief in the efficacy of capitalism or the idea that CEOs are highly paid because of their brilliance you'd be very disappointed to discover how often the answer is "we're doing this because other companies like us are doing this", or "because an analyst told us we should do this".
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by cscurmudgeon on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:14PM (#34418210)
If people were paid by brilliance most celebrities and politicians would be poor and mathematicians would be billionaires.

The world doesn’t work that way.

Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by kmonsen on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:30PM (#34418462)
I think the overall spirit of your argument is true, but I think you define brilliance too narrowly with saying it primarily applies to mathematicians.
Re:Microsoft to lay off 11,000 employees by thedougd on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:19PM (#34419341)
Maybe they're doomed to follow the footsteps of their predecessors, IBM, HP, Cisco, Nortel, Dell, Intel, etc.