News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by PreInternet01 on Friday January 13, 2023 @10:26AM (#34369009)
Congratulations! Having cracked versions out there indicates that your software is both useful and notable, which is a point where many developers would love to arrive at, maybe, one day.

As to what to do about it, there are two basic tracks, neither of which is incompatible with the other:

1. The legal route: notifying distribution sites that they're hosting content in violation of copyright law, requesting takedown, and if required, demanding such (with a DMCA notice or similar). If a distributor is unresponsive to both, DMCA Google, Bing, etc. to at least suppress the cracks in most search results;

2. Having some fun with it: make sure that a special page on your own site becomes the #1 search engine result for "<productname> crack" and similar. On this page, put a human face on your pricing, explain the available discounts, and finally offer to supply a free registration key to anyone that truly wants it, so they don't have to download all kinds of shady binaries. Of course, any such free keys don't come with support and display a prominent PIRATED VERSION notice in all window captions, printed outputs, et cetera, but you disclose all of that upfront and explain how that's a small price to pay...

But above all, make sure not to confuse a "pirated copy" with a "lost sale". In 99% of cases, the Venn diagram of those has very little overlapping area.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by netrap on Friday January 13, 2023 @10:41AM (#34369261)
Completely agree. Great comment. Make it harder to find by simple means by requesting link takedowns, etc. Don't bother trying to make it harder to crack since real crackers will not be deterred.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by 1970-01-01 on Friday January 13, 2023 @10:36AM (#34369187)
Yes, this is a good problem for a developer.

2b. Free with Ads. Yes, this is not for everyone, but many devs will make this path an option. Your buyers must realize that all ads can be removed for a fair price.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Friday January 13, 2023 @10:49AM (#34369392)
There was a videogame that got famous because it was pirated, it was a management game about setting up a gaming company.

Turns out, the pirated copy had a special feature where the player would feel immense economic pressure from piracy, so a bunch of players asked how to win against this, it was pretty hard and really fun for people who knew what was going on.

Point is, you could hide an Easter Egg for pirated versions (can you detect the lack of signatures?)

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by MrPowerGamerBR on Friday January 13, 2023 @11:42AM (#34370262)
> There was a videogame

Game Dev Tycoon

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by josephcsible on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:11PM (#34371581)
Here's the full story of that: https://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when...

It's important to note that they didn't use DRM or anything like that to detect whether a given copy of it was pirated. They made two builds of the game: a normal one that they gave to paying customers, and the special one that they uploaded a torrent of themselves.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by WASDx on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:12PM (#34371607)
I love this approach. If you can detect a crack and block it, it will get worked around. Injecting easter eggs is much more subtle. There was another game that made an otherwise easy jump between two platforms impossible, so the players who had cracked the game went on forums and unwittingly revealed themselves by asking how to complete that level.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kuboble on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:42PM (#34372849)
We have implemented something similar. The most obvious way to crack our software will trigger certain bug. Whenever people report that bug I feel a little joy
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by krisoft on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:16PM (#34373282)
> Whenever people report that bug I feel a little joy

I hope you are super duper 100% sure the bug can’t happen otherwise. I would hate to be your paying costumer and ignored because your drm system is buggy.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kuboble on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:32PM (#34373494)
Yes. 100% super duper sure.

It's something along the lines of: Pi+=2 in one place of the code. And Pi += 1.1415 somewhere else. And both are guaranteed to run at the start of the program so that Pi=3.1415

However one of those lines is hidden in a part of the code that the most obvious crack is going to remove.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by krisoft on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:51PM (#34373714)
Okay. That sounds reasonable. Well thought out system.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by pxx on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:51PM (#34374395)
The hilarious thing about this is that this might have different behaviors across architectures or optimization levels if you do a bad floating point compare...
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by tux3 on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:03PM (#34375140)
It's a good way to do it! The less obvious it is that there is a remaining check hidden, the better. Some games would become impossible to win, but only halfway through or worse. Sometimes with multiple layers hidden in different places that fail at different moment.

I cracked an expensive FPGA simulation program (for which I had the license, but the FlexLM scheme based on the MAC address of the adapter was just too annoying to get working on Linux).

What they would do is have a sort of unit test of their license verification function at runtime. There was a check hidden somewhere that I never found, and if the license verification was changed to always return true, the unit test would fail. The simulator would continue working within a single module, but as soon as you tried simulating a larger project, it would return undefined values between all the modules, rendering the simulation unusable for any real project =)

(I solved the unit test by having the license check return true only for my hardcoded serial number, which is definitely easier than hunting for the different places where a check might be hidden)

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by WirelessGigabit on Friday January 13, 2023 @08:53PM (#34376513)
Batman: Arkham Asylum

https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/pirated-batman-pc-contai...

> "I've got a problem when it's time to use Batman's glide in the game," said user Cheshirec_The_Cat, whose appalling spelling we felt we needed to clean up. "When I hold [the button], like it says, to jump from one platform to another, Batman tries to open his wings again and again instead of gliding. So he falls down in the poison gas. Can somebody could tell me, what I should do there?"

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by iLoveOncall on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:29PM (#34371854)
Crysis 3 would let you play an hour or two and then some special weapon wouldn't have ammunition essentially soft-locking you out. Great way to sell too.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by junon on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:44PM (#34372065)
Mirrors Edge too. You'd get through the first couple of levels then she'd just slowly come to a halt right before the ledge and you couldn't move anymore.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by non-nil on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:20PM (#34372554)
I first misread this as Microsoft Edge and found it funny, if perhaps a little convoluted.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Dylan16807 on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:32PM (#34371899)
That kind of thing is a cute idea but that specific example has always bothered me because it implies the devs really think that piracy is a catastrophe for sales.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Semaphor on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:33PM (#34371930)
Long ago, I helped distribute cracks and reverse engineered servers for warcraft 3 alpha. One of the biggest issues in the cat and mouse game was when blizzard introduced 2 invisible golems that would attack your base. That took the crackers much longer to fix than other updates.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by yieldcrv on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:48PM (#34372940)
That happened in I am Legend too

The pirated version had a different name for one of the mannequins, but people loved the quote and the acting for yelling out the name of the mannequin in the movie, so that led to people would arguing in internet comments about the name used and you could get a feel for how prevalent the piracy was by upvotes

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kregasaurusrex on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:00PM (#34373100)
It was later added it to the paid copy of the game and it's similar to a 'very hard' difficulty where the normal strategies of development don't apply and you have to include DRM most of the time to break even on per-game costs. Completing it was a difficult achievement.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by hunter2_ on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:13PM (#34373254)
> can you detect the lack of signatures?

I think a fundamental aspect of cracking consists of disabling such detection mechanisms. But if the cracker only digs far enough to ensure that it seems to work without nags, and not far enough to find Easter eggs, then it will probably work for a while until people catch on and demand a further crack.

It's really the OS that needs to detect a lack of expected signature, because the cracker isn't going to be able to disable an OS feature unless they release the cracked app as a while VM or something. But that's a thing...

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by wstuartcl on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:16PM (#34373290)
Depending on the nature of the app a suitable easter egg may be that over time the outputs become randomly but subtly incorrect. Another technique is to canary mark outputs in some way (like a tell tale unique string in PDF/export outputs). In this way your sales team may be able to search for those outputs and put pressure on large orgs creating those files.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by blippitybleep on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:18PM (#34373314)
One of the Command and Conquer games (Red Alert 2?) would blow up your MCV 30 (or thereabouts) seconds into a game if it detected piracy. Funny, albeit, entirely less subtle.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:37PM (#34374230)
The obvious risk with that approach is that if people do not realize that this applies only to the pirated version, you're risking bad reviews, which can cost you actual sales (you don't win anything just by keeping people from pirating your software, you only win if someone who is willing to buy but prefers to pirate chooses to buy instead).

I believe there were several games that had a reputation for being horribly buggy that was at least partially the result of pirated versions having bugs intentionally introduced by the copy protection.

I believe the game you mentioned made it really obvious what was happening and why to avoid that.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by ilyt on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:50PM (#34374998)
> The obvious risk with that approach is that if people do not realize that this applies only to the pirated version, you're risking bad reviews, which can cost you actual sales (you don't win anything just by keeping people from pirating your software, you only win if someone who is willing to buy but prefers to pirate chooses to buy instead).

Any time I've seen game devs try it the comments under those people were "you fix it by buying the game pirate".

And platforms like Steam allow you to review only bought games anyway

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by 908B64B197 on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:02PM (#34371435)
There's a third option:

If the software supports getting updates, get the cracked copies to phone home and have a legal firm send them a warning they might be using hacked software.

Home users won't care, but legitimate businesses might convert to actual sales.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by KomoD on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:15PM (#34371646)
How would you send them a warning, you'd know nothing other than an IP address? If you just send the ISP a regular ol' "copyright" notice, there's a lot of ISPs who do not forward those notices.

And if you made cracked copies phone home, that's something that would get removed by the cracker anyway most of the time.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fest on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:00PM (#34373819)
In my country, there is a branch of police that deals with such things. They have a relationship with an organization called Business Software Alliance, which I believe is formed with this specific goal- to allow foreign companies or their local distributors reach pirate users. However, I'm only aware of the major software companies being members of this org: Microsoft, Adobe, Dassault (Solidworks), Siemens.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by wobbly_bush on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:33PM (#34372738)
If the business is from someone in a low income country, they likely wouldn't care about any legal warnings either. Some of the software prices in those countries are very expensive relative to prices of other things.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by hutzlibu on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:44PM (#34372893)
"and have a legal firm send them a warning they might be using hacked software."

Rather send a message directly through the software and give a link directly to purchase it. A bit cheaper and more straightforward, than finding out adresses and involve lawers. That should be the last resort.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by moralestapia on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:06PM (#34371506)
>Congratulations!

Indeed! There's a nice anecdote from Paulo Coehlo (I don't like his work but w/e) where he was stuck in traffic somewhere in LATAM and a guy passed by his car selling pirated copies of his newest book. He then says this event made him feel like he had finally made it and even became a strong promoter of piracy, heh.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by mobilio on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:49PM (#34372954)
Actually this happens in other country and Coehlo make free version of his own books: https://paulocoelhoblog.com/2008/02/03/pirate-coelho/
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by omginternets on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:27PM (#34371832)
A (possible) third option would be to distribute the product under a SaaS model instead of a binary.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by bonestamp2 on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:40PM (#34372008)
* * *
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kabdib on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:44PM (#34372064)
When I was working on video game cartridges, I discovered that one of my neighbors in my apartment building was a prolific pirate. I introduced myself and we had some fun chats.

The Atari 800 cartridge address range could be populated with RAM, and cartridge images simply copied to RAM and run. Copy protection techniques usually involved figuring out sneaky ways to write to that address range (which would crash an image running from RAM).

Toward the end of one project, I spent about two weeks writing an encrypted, multi-stage anti-copy system. A few months after the game shipped, I asked my pirate "friend" about it.

"That was a hard one," he said, "It took us nearly three days to crack it."

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by andymccurdy on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:00PM (#34372299)
The Atari 800 was my first console and where I typed my first lines of Basic code. While it wasn't obvious as a 7 or 8 year old kid, I reflect back on this experience fondly and recognize that it was instrumental in my development as a self-taught software engineer. Thank you for your role in my personal development.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kabdib on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:41PM (#34373592)
The Atari 800 was released (IIRC) in 1979. It was a surprisingly good platform, with a decent OS, a tolerable file system (for a slow floppy disk), and great documentation all around. I learned a lot reading the Atari docs, long before I worked there.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Gigachad on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:22PM (#34373358)
These days the companies won and modern game DRM often doesn’t get cracked for the first year if at all.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by pclmulqdq on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:36PM (#34373535)
Steam seems to have significantly reduced the market for pirated games. Streaming did that for movies for a while, until every single production company decided start their own.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by snuxoll on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:29PM (#34374791)
Almost like Gabe Newell is right, piracy is first and foremost a service problem. There's some irony in things like Denuvo making games worse for legitimate users and creating new incentives to crack it, or players deferring purchases until it's either inevitably removed long after the launch window (where publishers are expecting the majority of purchases to happen).
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Gigachad on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:43PM (#34374938)
To some extent. With modern AAA games costing ~$100AUD these days, there is still a strong incentive to pirate even if it’s far more convenient to buy.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by tcmart14 on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:05PM (#34375156)
It definitely is nuanced and everyone has their limits, which may depend on their personal circumstance. The solution for companies it to find a solution. An easy enough solution at a price point most people find reasonable. There are some people where the convenience or price point will never be good enough, but those are edge cases. As mentioned by someone else in a different way, you don't want to alienate your majority of happy current users to try to scoop up the handful who will probably just write off your product completely rather than pay.

For instance, current Netflix pricing I am okay with, with the content they have. If the price triples, you bet your ass I am going back to torrents unless they really step up the quality and quantity of content.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by rightbyte on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:20PM (#34375804)
The difference is that it is always possible to rip a movie but cracking games with server side computations could be practically impossible.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Gigachad on Friday January 13, 2023 @08:08PM (#34376140)
The games industry has moved to where even single player games are online enhanced experiences. As angry as that makes users here, gamers and corporations are quite happy with that arrangement which blocks piracy and makes games more fun.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by antifa on Saturday January 14, 2023 @08:58AM (#34380352)
For me, personally, writing my own replacement server would be easier than cracking a binary client.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by ilyt on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:48PM (#34374982)
That heavily depends on game in question. Some use "top of the line" DRM still get cracked within a week.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Gigachad on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:21PM (#34375274)
There is apparently only one person in the world cracking Denuvo and they are very unreliable/unstable. Most of the major "week one" incidents have been accidental leakages of the unprotected game.

There is just very little incentive anymore. The skill level for hacking game DRM is extremely high now and those people would rather spend their time working on one of the many bug bounties where they can get huge payouts and public recognition for hacking ios vs having to hide behind tor and risk arrest to provide kids with free games.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by frankzander on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:30PM (#34372686)
Best is 2. because it's human and fully open and clear in communication and also sane because you acknowledge that every other step is a fight against windmills and swimming against the stream. Using what has been given to you is the best thing, the smartest thing and with that you show, that you outsmart the situation and also respect the users (payed and unpayed)
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by esel2k on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:54PM (#34373019)
I think 1 is absolutely is fantastic comment. How many people define as finding product market fit is if people love your program and tell about it to their friends. Here they even go as far to crack it.

A third option is a big looking what adobe photoshop did. Most people in the early days has an access to a cracked version and it became nearly the standard for image editing. And how did they then manage this: By adding cloud services.

You could maybe start small and say: „You can download our free templates (don’t know what type of software but I thought of some 3D models) from the web (new template every couple of month) and this works only with an activated version. By this you actively provide more value for your paying customer at the same time instead of wasting time and money to just make it harder to crack.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by hermitcrab on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:00PM (#34373103)
>But above all, make sure not to confuse a "pirated copy" with a "lost sale". In 99% of cases, the Venn diagram of those has very little overlapping area.

Very true. If they were never going to pay anyway, you haven't lost anything if they use a crack. It still irks though!

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by horsawlarway on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:12PM (#34373229)
Consider it free training, education, and marketing rather than a lost sale.

It's literally the same reason most companies give students essentially fire sale discounts (often just free) versions of their software.

They're probably pirating it because they aren't deriving much if any revenue from using it yet (it's either for personal use, they're learning a new tool, or they have no money). But having that person familiar with your software and trained on it means that if they reach a spot where they're using it profitably for business - it's basically a guaranteed sale.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by lb1lf on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:51PM (#34374393)
This was how I got a licence for the Protel (Now Altium) PCB design software when back in university; the cracked version doing the rounds on campus was rather prone to crashing, so eventually I figured I had nothing to lose, called up the distributor and asked them if they did student discounts, as buying a full licence was definitely out of the question, but so was using the, uh, evaluation version with its stability issues.

"Sure thing, how many do you need?"

When I hesitantly reminded him we hadn't discussed prices yet, I was told it was free as they really wanted to snare us in as users before we wound up in paid work where we'd need to be productive employees fast.

I have since had three employers buy full licenses and support deals. Good call by Protel back then.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by Enginerrrd on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:14PM (#34373952)
Yeah basically. Not only that, but, for all of the most expensive software I use, I used a pirated version first for months/years first. Once I really got a feel for it, if it provided value to me, I have pretty much paid for it everytime. And no, a 30-day trial doesn't cut it for evaluation. If I used the software enough to where a 30-day trial would have been enough to test it properly, the value proposition would have already been there to just buy it. Software trials should be based on hours used or something, and the eval periods are almost always too stingy.

Instead, the value proposition to switching to paid became once it had established value to me, and I could benefit from the reduced exposure risk of running malware in the cracked version, and possibly get updates if they affected major things like stability, or new tool-sets or access to online data that was useful.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by DarrenDev on Friday January 13, 2023 @03:15PM (#34373278)
There is a third option which I'm surprised no one has mentioned so far: Ignore them.

First, people or companies using the cracked version of your software were never going to buy it. These people do not pay for software, and nothing you do will convince them to pay for it.

Secondly, whatever measures you put in place to combat the cracked versions will potentially have a negative impact on your actual paying users - the real people you built the software for.

Extra security measures or hoops to jump through; extra validation or 'calls home.' - all extra things that can and will go wrong at some point for a real user.

Why would you inconvenience paying users to combat people who will never be paying users?

Ignore them, and spend your time improving your product for your real users.

[I've had 3 desktop apps cracked and hosted on Warez sites over the past 15 years - even appearing for sale on eBay on some occasions. I was worried the first time it happened, then I stopped caring. They made no difference.]

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by FlyingSnake on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:02PM (#34373841)
I agree. Ignoring them is probably a good strategy. #2 in the list is too time consuming and has opportunity cost for the small team already wearing many hats.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by creeble on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:12PM (#34373940)
It was called "the WordStar effect" in the 80s. Your marginal loss to pirates is nothing compared to the incremental effect of becoming a standard.

Not always effective for all applications though.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by freedomben on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:25PM (#34374097)
Yes, exactly! This is IMHO the best answer. You'd also be amazed at how many people pirated photoshop while they were youths and/or students, and later paid for a legit copy when they had a real business need because it was what they knew and loved.

It's very bad economics to think of a pirated copy as a lost sale. In some cases the piracy helps drive sales!

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fragmede on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:31PM (#34374169)
> First, people or companies using the cracked version of your software were never going to buy it.

I've heard this before but I'm not convinced this is actually true. Why? Because I use Netflix instead of torrent sites, and just accept the limitations of that format. Programs are tools vs of entertainment, but I don't know that the human psychology actually changes.

A neat trick they did was to introduce downloading as a feature. Now search results for "Netflix download" all talk about the built in feature as opposed to teaching how to rip the DRM off the downloaded file.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by jupp0r on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:50PM (#34374388)
I think this is different in consumer and corporate markets. The tradeoff to expose a business to legal liability and security problems is not a good one for most businesses while it's usually acceptable (or isn't realized by) many consumers.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by hellotomyrars on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:55PM (#34374440)
Not sure how your example of Netflix refutes the point being made? It’s exactly the point?

Regardless this just goes to show that the problem can be mitigated by making the legitimate route less painful than the illegitimate one. I used to pirate most of my music collection but now I use Apple Music because the friction of maintaining the library across multiple devices is so much lower.

Imposing restrictions and hoops to make your product harder to pirate is vastly inferior and in many cases entirely ineffective in than designing the product to be a superior experience to pirating it.

The ability to do so is going to vary wildly by the product itself, but that is the better way to achieve the goal.

There are people who will always pirate things, whether out of principle or out of economics. However there are plenty of people who would gladly cross the line if the legitimate route was significantly better, either by ease of use or design.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fragmede on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:22PM (#34374729)
Oh yeah okay I see what you're saying.

DarrenDev says there are no lost sales. However, I pay for Disney plus because I don't have access to invite-only torrent sites where the latest movies can be found but I'd still like to watch them. If I had access to those torrent sites or someone's Plex, I could cancel Disney plus.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by kika on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:16PM (#34375237)
I do have an access to an invite-only torrent site, but rarely download anything from there (mostly to keep my membership). Once in a while there's a movie that hard to come by online and I have to reach out to them (because of some stupid regional thing or whatnot). I'd say I download 2 movies per year. Convenience beats everything.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by BizarroLand on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:21PM (#34375275)
Look at Adobe, for instance.

A good portion of their user base got started using cracked copies of the software, as the price of something like the CS6 Master collection was well outside of the affordability of the average hobbyist.

But some of those teenage hobbyists grew up to go to college to expand on their Adobe tinkering to becoming professionals that sneer at people who use non-adobe products because of the price.

Businesses buy the software because that is what the talent is trained on. The difference between calling what Adobe has on the market a monopoly and an actual monopoly is probably only technicalities at this point.

Sure, most of this comes from the fact that their software really was the best of the best for the longest time, and their lead in technology and namesake is so far ahead of any of their competitors that it is laughable. their software was pirated obsessively because it was so good and so expensive, just like Waves $2,000 Mercury VST plugin suite.

There are other softwares, many of which are free or very affordable, that do 95%+ of what anything adobe or Waves does. But when you edit a photo with Gimp people will still instinctively say that you photoshopped it, and few people will ever care what plugins you used on an audio track if it's not autotune.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by nibbleshifter on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:09PM (#34375706)
It's the same with IDA Pro.

Its completely unaffordable to the student or hobbyist, the "home edition" is too limited to be useful, so everyone starting out uses a cracked version because its been the de-facto industry standard tool since forever for reverse engineering.

Later when those people get jobs, they become another paying (through work) licensed user of IDA Pro.

What's slowly fucking IDA now is finally there are alternatives, the NSA open sourced Ghidra which can replace IDA to some extent - so smaller customers (who were always treated poorly anyway) are moving away from their product.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by IYasha on Monday January 16, 2023 @05:55AM (#34399322)
Adobe targets a very wide market, so it's okay to "let them learn on cracked PS" (like Microsoft did, actually), but in OP's case their case is obviously very narrow and this model, sadly, won't work..
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by comprev on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:01PM (#34375633)
You likely use Netflix because you can afford it.

Would you still pick Netflix over torrents if it cost €100/month?

When I was a young teenager I used to rip CDs from the local library (who could get almost any CD in a week if ordered).

Now I spent a fair chunk of money on both digital and physical (vinyl) supporting artists - because I can afford it.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by mikewarot on Saturday January 14, 2023 @01:20AM (#34377792)
When I was a young programmer, I used to buy CDs based on the songs I found using Napster, it was glorious being able to freely discover so many new artists/songs based on everyone else's collections.

Then they (the record companies) started suing their customers, and I stopped buying CDs. I've been listening to the same set of songs ever since, or stuff on youtube.

Never again will I feed that monster.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by technion on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:49PM (#34374369)
I agree with this, but I do think having pirate keys show up on ebay is a special case. I've dealt with this in businesses that expected Microsoft support but had windows and office keys bought off ebay that they believed were legitimate. End users often just think that $5 key is a special deal. It's worth sending whatever complaints you can to ebay.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by branon on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:46PM (#34374966)
Distributing cracked software for free is one thing, but people trying to make money selling cracks or access to them ... if it were my software, that'd feel personal.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by ilyt on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:47PM (#34374972)
Eh, you probably want to give company customers some notice it is a pirated one.

If there is no note whatsoever it's very easy to get to situation where user A starts to use it, pirates it, then just dumps it onto file share and tells others to use it.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by liquidify on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:24PM (#34375296)
I use cracked software until it is too useful or frustrating to use and the economics makes sense.

If you are making money from something or using it enough that you want support / reliability, pay for it and shame on you if you don't

Don't gimp your cracked stuff for the college kids and evening hacks just trying to see if they like something or if they can build its use into a business.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by atoav on Saturday January 14, 2023 @04:31AM (#34378766)
> These people do not pay for software, and nothing you do will convince them to pay for it.

I have pirated person when I was a poor student where it literally was money for food vs buying some software. I buy all my (commercial) software now that I can easily afford it and support multiple open source projects with donations. And the software houses, Bands and filmers who have seen the most of my money have been precisely the ones whose work I liked before.

The creators who have not been assholes about it (or even had some kind of humor in their response) are well remembered.

Sure there might be people who pirate everything out of principle, but my guess is that the majority will only do it if they can't help it any better.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by puffoflogic on Saturday January 14, 2023 @04:29PM (#34384344)
> First, people or companies using the cracked version of your software were never going to buy it.

Or, they would never have bought it if unable to obtain a pirated copy, but now that they've tried it, may purchase. Admittedly this is more true of games than other software. When I compare my steam library to my pirated library, many of my favorite games are in the overlap: I tried them first, loved them, and then bought them.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fsloth on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:13PM (#34373949)
‘But above all, make sure not to confuse a "pirated copy" with a "lost sale". In 99% of cases, the Venn diagram of those has very little overlapping area.’

The non-overlapping are is likely non-trivial. There are surprising many shops that use professional software for client projects, could afford the license, but that prefer pirated copy to paying actual license fee.

Ofc persecuting non-professional users is pointless. Persecuting professional users in a smart way can lead to license sales.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by gtvwill on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:32PM (#34374180)
Lol everytime I read this argument I think of the software VirtualDJ. It was notorious for being the DJ software to use about a decade and a half ago as pirate copies were everywhere! Fast forward to today and you can read post after post from ex pirate user that's now a paid user. VirtualDJ have one of the more expensive software licenses on the market in that sector too. I wonder if many other software companies have had similar experiences?
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fsloth on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:40PM (#34374267)
* * *
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by ilyt on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:00PM (#34375112)
I'd imagine most of that is out of annoyance of dealing with pirate version or just them finally being able to afford it as it is now part of their job.

I feel like easiest way to monetize apps like that would be free noncommercial license. Want to DJ your school party ? Go ahead, as long as nobody pays you it's fine, and if someone does, well, now you have money for license.

You're also building potential user base, when everyone can play with your software without limits many will pick it when they will do something commercial

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by crtasm on Saturday January 14, 2023 @05:14PM (#34384664)
Yep, VirtualDJ has a free version. It doesn't let you use a hardware controller though.

https://virtualdj.com/products/virtualdj/price.html#comparis...

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fragmede on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:51PM (#34374398)
A full actual version of SOLIDWORKS costs, no joke, $10,000 for a professional license ($8k plus $2k/yr support contract). An engineer at, say, Tesla is going to have that paid for by their employer while designing the Cybertruck. That Tesla engineer is also going to want to use SOLIDWORKS to design their bike shed. Their two choices for their bike shed are either use their work computer, or pirate it. (Using non-solidworks CAD isn't really an option due to the muscle memory involved with the application, and the resulting switching cost.) So it's getting pirated. But that also means their next employer better have SOLIDWORKS and so that "lost" sale for a bike shed really isn't.

But you'd be insane to use a pirated copy of SOLIDWORKS for anything professional (like if you were the Cybertruck's door handle subcontractor or whatever), just like you would be insane to use a pirated copy of windows or Office. But let's be real, plenty of people do that. Whether it's because they're poor, or whether it's because they're cheap, or both, full list price is simply not gonna get paid, and so they'll go with the cheaper option - it's just that cheaper option happens to be a $0 pirated copy in most cases. Some offices will have one genuine copy for one computer and pirated copies for the rest of everyone, especially part-time contractors. In that way, a cheaper academic license, even accepting that there's no fool proof way of checking for that, or having a time-limited entrepreneur/start-up option will lead to more sales and more money.

It then becomes an exercise in the dark art of pricing things, to figure out where that sweet spot actually is. A 30 or 90 day copy which is hopefully long enough to build the bike shed, priced right, is an actual sale that can be made that otherwise wouldn't. A cheaper limited version for the non-premium seats at the company are other additional sales to be made.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by scarface74 on Saturday January 14, 2023 @12:30AM (#34377606)
When I worked at GE, anyone could buy a copy of MS Office for $10 - full version not the subscription.

Why not bundle a separate license for individuals with the enterprise license.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by fsloth on Saturday January 14, 2023 @08:23AM (#34380142)
The value of deliverable asset (document etc) from MS Office for the regular user is insignificant. The value of deliverable from a professional CAD application otoh, always has a price that likely non-trivial and plausibly much more than the 10k yearly license or so. E.g. A multi-month project with all of the relevant design data.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by jspaetzel on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:25PM (#34374096)
I like the special page suggestion. Humanizing the software is a great way to get people to pay for it if they have the means. And if they don't, then you're doing some good in the world (hopefully) by giving it away. Maybe at some point in the future they'll pay it forward or back.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:33PM (#34374188)
This depends on the market. I know a handful of people who got out of the VST plugin market because cracks were killing them financially.

VSTs are pretty niche and the market is mostly people without much money. But you can find cracks being used in top studios, so...

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by lll-o-lll on Friday January 13, 2023 @04:49PM (#34374375)
“But above all, make sure not to confuse a "pirated copy" with a "lost sale". In 99% of cases, the Venn diagram of those has very little overlapping area.”

I’m seeing many comments saying this, but it’s simply not true for commercial/industrial software. Outside of the US, even in large swathes of Europe, it’s extremely common to lose significant revenue to piracy, and if you make it too hard to pirate they will pay.

Companies (the customers in this case) that are happy to exploit workers in sweatshops? Also completely happy to use your software without paying for it.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by noyoudumbdolt on Friday January 13, 2023 @11:14PM (#34377331)
This pro-piracy nonsense is a point of faith for many nerds. They will twist themselves into pretzels to avoid the conclusion that piracy is costly and that enforcement of the law can be good.
Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by huhtenberg on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:13PM (#34374630)
> Having cracked versions out there indicates that your software is both useful and notable

In the vast majority of cases it doesn't mean that.

A lot of cracking is done for sport and to show off, especially when the protection is weak.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by moritzwarhier on Friday January 13, 2023 @05:43PM (#34374930)
Your comment is beautifully succinct and made my day.

I don't use any cracked software, but I sure did when I was a kid without money. And I was so grateful for it, especially all the DAW and music production stuff.

There is an utilitarian argument somewhere in there about free software.

Copyright owners also habe legitimate interests in their products and are afforded with different ways to gain value from a software product that is locally installed.

Also, something like a self-contained, "portable" linked binary that creates value without any dependency on any online service will always be trivial to copy but also maximally useful.

(Edit: languages that depend on an interpreter don't differ too much, I think)

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by musicale on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:06PM (#34375167)
If your app is a game and/or you think that DRM provides significant value to you, consider moving to an app store or other platform that manages the DRM semi-automatically, perhaps with OS support in the case of macOS/Windows/iOS/Google Play/etc..

If your app isn't a game and/or you think that DRM isn't worth the platform tax, remove the DRM and focus on building relationships with your customers.

Re:Ask HN: We found a cracked version of our software on the... by randomdata on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:28PM (#34375884)
> But above all, make sure not to confuse a "pirated copy" with a "lost sale".

The one time I had software cracked and pirated sales pretty much dried up immediately upon its release.

This is probably true if your audience is primarily people who aren't particularly technically minded, but my product was no doubt most appealing to the same kind of people who know how to pirate software.