News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by qbasic_forever on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:27PM (#33957435)
Wait until your learn what a country or local government/police can do remotely to the baseband firmware of your phone with a court order...

10-20 years ago the FBI was regularly remotely programming firmware to listen in and record cell phone microphones to capture conversations of suspects. IIRC a mafia case hinged on data gathered in this way so it is not some abstract theoretical or crackpot theory (https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/fbi-taps-cell-phone-mic-as...).

It's only gotten worse as phones have gotten more capable. You don't own squat about the device in your pocket at all times.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:26PM (#33958213)
I rotate burner SIM's. I never make calls with the SIM. Instead I use jmp.chat if I need to use OTA calls or SMS. I am in airplane mode 99% of the time and use WIFI instead of cellular. I never activate cellular near my home. I am always connected to VPN so that the traffic cannot be analyzed. My phone is anonymous without any identifiers. I think all this mitigates the baseband attacks, but tell me if I am missing something.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by zer0x4d on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:35PM (#33960730)
From my experience, people who do take this type of an exaggerated approach often end up exposing themselves more in ways that they don't even realize...

How do you pay for jmp.chat? Do you trust their code to be bug-free and without possible exploits? Do they do regular security audits and code reviews? Do they have enough users and maintainers to be able to quickly detect and address security issues? Are you sure Airplane Mode turns off the baseband and cuts off all cellular communication? It doesn't, you can still emergency receive alerts in Airplane Mode. Your phone can tell exactly where you are by comparing your wifi search results + RSSIs to known public databases without even having to use GPS. How much do you trust your VPN provider to keep no logs? How do you pay for VPN?

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kace91 on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:19PM (#33961242)
All that plus the fact that, under general surveillance, behaving in a way that is consistent with avoiding tracking at great inconvenience is a great way to get flagged.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:44PM (#33961536)
jmp.chat can be paid for with a virtual card and not tied to any ID. However I have it associated to my real ID in this case as it is the number everybody knows.

I use the word 'mitigate' not 'solve' since closed source baseband modems are a problem. Cellular traffic is off in airplane mode, but the baseband could be exploited if someone wanted to find me AND knew which IMEI to target. Because the IMEI has never been associated to me, that is a challenge.

I run my own VPN and share it with a few other people.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by zer0x4d on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @03:27AM (#33966161)
>I run my own VPN and share it with a few other people.

How confident are you in your VPN server configuration skills? Gaining access through mis-configured self-hosted boxes is the easiest attack vector usually as most people who self-host aren't experts in the software they are using leading to leaks. Besides that, do you keep a list of packages installed on your box, open ports, etc? How about security patches and regular updates as well as auditing access logs to ensure no one gained access to your box?

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by iudqnolq on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @07:40AM (#33968102)
We're talking about the FBI here. They see traffic coming from a server. The ask who's server it is, your host tells them your name and address. The FBI asks the host for physical access to the server, and installs whatever monitoring they want regardless of your patch schedule. The FBI asks them to keep this off the access logs, and they do.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:17AM (#33970885)
You might be assuming I am trying to evade an APT or I am of any interest to them. That is a fun rabbit hole to go down, and I realize they could spend resources to pursue these avenues. Other comments summarily say that if you try to protect your privacy too much, you automatically become a person of interest. The measures employed by an APT to target and monitor someone at these levels are expensive. They do have abundant resources, but they would be wasting much money and lose focus if they targeted every privacy seeking person. After spending thousands of dollars, they would find nothing interesting on me other than someone with above average tech knowledge who just doesn't like to be followed around. The suggestion that I am flagging myself for surveillance is ridiculous. If I am wrong, I hope they do surveil me to learn this themselves.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by BizarroLand on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:08PM (#33962473)
I'm willing to bet that if you generate roughly the same data as your peers, you're invisible, but if you generate NO data at all, you become worthy of checking into, as either the algorithm has no ability to correctly record your data or you are working very hard to hide yourself from the system, possibly for nefarious reasons, and therefore need to be monitored just in case.

Squeaky wheels get the grease and squeaky nails get the hammer, but silence in a noisy forest is alarming.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by cvbrty on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:52PM (#33958555)
Airplane mode doesn't shut off your baseband. It just sends it a message saying "go into airplane mode". The firmware is still running. It could still be receiving and sending data for all you know.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by burntwater on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:42PM (#33962905)
I can verify they do in fact receive (if not transmit) data - I worked an immersive art project that had 100 Samsung cell phones that were in airplane mode, and we found out the hard and noisy way that they were still able to receive emergency and AMBER alerts (U.S. alerts that notify of potential child abductions).
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by zzo38computer on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:19AM (#33965795)
They need to add possibility to disactivate the hardware components, in order to save battery power (in addition to disabling the features you mention).
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by jvanderbot on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:35PM (#33958353)
Your location data. Tower associations can still happen with data "off", since there's plenty of "listen" components. All your home wifi connections are well Geo-located, thanks to other Android users picking up the ESSID as they walk / ride / drive past your house. Your shopping / outings? Forget it, fully known.

VPNs hide the content of connections, at least from MITM / eavesdroppers, but server-side data scrapes are quite effective at figuring out who you are (or what your phone is ... see below). Nothing really does a good job of hiding the fact that you are connected to a VPN except TOR, and where that connection originates (e.g., your wifi network, which is well Geo-located, remember?). And de-anonymization of VPN connections to identify downstream connections are possible, IIRC. Details about your phone are well recorded (MAC, SID, etc)

And always remember, your phone can be implicated based on location data, which will implicate you once it's discovered you own the phone. And that's as simple as looking up the SIM purchase / use.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:20PM (#33959690)
From https://grapheneos.org/faq: "Connecting to your carrier's network inherently depends on you identifying yourself to it and anyone able to obtain administrative access. Activating airplane mode will fully disable the cellular radio transmit and receive capabilities, which will prevent your phone from being reached from the cellular network and stop your carrier (and anyone impersonating them to you) from tracking the device via the cellular radio. The baseband implements other functionality such as Wi-Fi and GPS functionality, but each of these components is separately sandboxed on the baseband and independent of each other. Enabling airplane mode disables the cellular radio, but Wi-Fi can be re-enabled and used without activating the cellular radio again. This allows using the device as a Wi-Fi only device."

When I am at home, I am WIFI only. When I am out, WIFI & bluetooth are off. This takes some discipline at first but then just becomes habit. I know the spot on my commute home where I switch my settings.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by burntwater on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:45PM (#33962937)
I can promise that airplane mode does not fully disable the cellular radio, at least not on Samsung phones. Repeating a comment above: I can verify they do in fact receive data - I worked an immersive art project that had 100 Samsung cell phones that were in airplane mode, and we found out the hard and noisy way that they were still able to receive emergency and AMBER alerts (U.S. alerts that notify of potential child abductions).
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by MengerSponge on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:30PM (#33959823)
BTW habitually switching at the same time and place is terrible opsec. It leaks a ton of information.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by thewataccount on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:49PM (#33960066)
Yeah I'm not sure what information this really protects assuming you're only communicating over encrypted channels (https) already.

In theory it could protect location data from the carrier for locating you with a wild amount of opsec practice but I highly doubt you could pull that off for a daily driver.

Having wifi/bluetooth off in public isn't a terrible idea though as those are generally much easier attack surfaces and are leakier.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:02PM (#33960230)
It is the same general location about half a mile from home where I flip over. This is to ensure location from cell tower triangulation does not identify my home and therefore me.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Retric on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:06PM (#33961117)
It’s all about your threat model.

Suppose you wanted to find someone that aways turned on their phone on at ~8:15 AM and found someone that always turned their phone off at ~8:10 AM within 15 miles. How difficult would you say it was to make this connection?

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:25PM (#33961954)
Nobody is looking for me. I don't have any regular commute either. I just make sure not to use cellular at my house since that would narrow the owner of the SIM down to one of the people living in this house.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by lgats on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:35AM (#33966553)
Do you own a car with OnStar or SeriusXm ?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by n3dm on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:43AM (#33966605)
I have O*. How do I disable it?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @10:52AM (#33970473)
No. I ride a bike.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kube-system on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:58PM (#33961021)
The baseband is an entirely separate SoC that is a blackbox outside of the control of GrapheneOS. And your radios are solely under the control of that system. GrapheneOS just asks it nicely to do things on its behalf.

All of these privacy focussed phone OSes tread lightly on the fact that there are a grand total of zero modern open source basebands in existence.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:57PM (#33962312)
Agreed. We can only mitigate by tactics: -not associating the device ID's to personal ID's. -only using cellular in limited situations. -rotating the SIMs periodically with other family members
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kube-system on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @07:24AM (#33967956)
You don’t get to choose those things if you don’t choose what the radio does. Swapping SIMs around doesn’t accomplish that. The hardware and software that the baseband has entirely within the confines of its own black box is enough to track you.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by sgc on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:36PM (#33960747)
I would never trust that. It is how thing are supposed to work, not the way they necessarily will. Just buy a phone with physical disconnect switches if it is important enough for you.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by jvanderbot on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:22PM (#33960512)
I appreciate the extra information. I'm still skeptical on any phone except the OS/HW combo the faq was written against (which by the way was not in your original post)
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by RektBoy on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:46PM (#33959215)
In my country, this one girl is buying prepaid SIMs and selling them on darknet. Which is fully legal. Still she got notified from our intelligence agency, lol. They're butt-hurt a lot from this.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by K0balt on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @08:39PM (#33978940)
The sim basically doesn’t matter. The imei identifies the phone to the network, the sim identifies the subscriber. So the network sees phone x unknown subscriber prepaid carrier. Airplane mode does not prevent the phone system from triangulating your phone, or from turning the baseband on remotely even when the phone is “off”.

The carrier definitely knows where you live if you take your phone to your house at night, even if it is off. The only way to prevent that is to put it in a faraday pouch at your “airplane mode” checkpoint.

Why do you think basically zero phones have trivially removable/changeable batteries? Any phone that clams to be security first and doesn’t at least have a switch (an actual switch) that disconnects the battery altogether is a joke.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by bengale on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:51PM (#33959274)
I’ve always assumed that behaviour like this is so unusual is would motivate a closer look by security services.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:30PM (#33959815)
Criminals the security services are looking for are not that smart. If they were, they wouldn't have been criminals in the first place.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by RussianCow on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:32PM (#33959842)
> If they were, they wouldn't have been criminals in the first place.

What does intelligence have to do with whether someone is a criminal? There are dumb criminals and smart criminals; I'm not sure what the correlation here is.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ActorNightly on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:40PM (#33961493)
Excluding ideological motivators, if you are technically competent to pull off a cybercrime and escape unseen, you are technically competent enough to work at a tech company making 300k+ a year while only doing about 10 hours of actual work per week.

Treating this just like investments, over your lifetime, its a no brainer on which is the better path to take.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by brailsafe on Monday December 12, 2022 @11:40PM (#33964921)
And a smart enough person would also know that there's a long chain of caveats to this specious claim, significant enough that being a criminal and getting away with it is much more compelling.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by themoonisachees on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:23AM (#33965817)
None of the caveats include hypothetically being thrown in prison though. Being a criminal and getting away with it is significantly harder than phoning in your job as part of a capitalist machine
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by brailsafe on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:39AM (#33967519)
You're on a forum that's thematically dedicated to the idea of being a "hacker" in spirit; to a lot of people, the easy boring path isn't attractive.

"Why do this risky exciting dangerous thing over there when you could come over here and be a flacid lifeless drone with me at Bezos' personal blowjob-drone company. Marry the first person you meet, have some kids, yay stability!"

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:35PM (#33959893)
I think most criminals are dumb. Quick google search shows average IQ of a criminal is 85.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by generalizations on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:56PM (#33960149)
Average IQ of all criminals, or criminals that got caught?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by autoexec on Monday December 12, 2022 @10:35PM (#33964441)
It must just be the ones who got caught. If they weren't caught how can anyone be sure they were a criminal?

Honestly though they might as well just use the average IQ for the population. There's not a person alive who hasn't violated some law at some point. We're all criminals.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by sgc on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:42PM (#33960839)
Probably not directly related, but mainly due to fewer opportunities. This is one of the reasons I strongly agree with universal basic income. The capitalistic game is harder than many people are capable of playing. They shouldn't have to suffer enormously because of that, and neither should society. Otherwise, should we assert that ethics are inherently easier for some people, yet penalize all people the same regardless of their capacities?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:21PM (#33959702)
The only thing it evidences is that someone is smart and values their privacy.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by jorgesborges on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:23PM (#33958967)
Just curious and I admire your commitment, but is there some aspect of your life that demands this diligence, or are you simply principled?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:13PM (#33959587)
I just don't like people following me around. It is creepy.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ethbr0 on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:53PM (#33960114)
A person's gotta have a hobby and an ethos. More power to you for the dedication.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by archi42 on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:49PM (#33958519)
In theory: 1. Wait until you enable the cellular again 2. push an update to the baseband firmware 3. when you disconnect, the new firmware will tell the OS that the baseband is disconnect, in reality, it's doing nasty stuff. You'd only notice it due to the battery draw.

You need burner phones to cycle after each usage.

TBH, seems you cranked up the paranoia to 11. The VPN has to terminate somewhere, so if I was a state actor attacking you, I'd figure out where that is. WiFi+BT firmware isn't bullet proof, either, and hypothetically an exploit chain could be found to enter via WiFi and stealthy enable cellular. In practice XKCD #538 applies: https://xkcd.com/538/

For most of us the attacker is someone trying to make some money by scamming, stealing CC or installing a malicious app.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by trimethylpurine on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:42PM (#33972560)
There is no such thing as anonymous. There is only more difficult. A government that controls enough endpoints (e.g. your country's backbone) can infer identity.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ghostoftesla on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:31PM (#33961378)
From my understanding, when installing an alternate OS (ie lineage) you can dive deeper into the partitioning of the device's os and see all components/folders. Under `vendor` you can choose not to install firmware for different kinds of stuff (wifi, baseband).
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by was_a_dev on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:24PM (#33960556)
> if I am missing something

It's the day you miss something that your effort was pointless. Even if your solution is always secure, it only takes one slip up to ruin everything

Any threat as large as youre trying to protect against, if interested in you, can just wait for you to make a mistake.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by sweetbitter on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @01:17AM (#33965461)
> can just wait for you to make a mistake.

Anyhow, if one slip-up is enough, you're doing it wrong. Imagine you were a mad scientist testing out a jetpack- you are confident yes? But I imagine you would feel more confident with a bunch of nets, and a trampoline underneath that, and a lightning rod in case of a storm, and a requirement that you hold down multiple buttons at once to play with the controls, etc.

That is, if you are serious you will put in multiple safety nets at every layer of the stack so that "one slip" is not enough.

You like to talk to people, but you know that a long-term pseudonym is the gravest danger of them all.

You like virtualization, but you keep some crucial data and keys(treams) on a un-networked machine.

You like anonymizing networks, but you know the caveats of traffic tunneling and didn't connect from your home router.

You connect to a randomly-chosen wireless AP, but you know that just in case your MAC-spoofing fails or you get pwned or something, you are glad that you bought the device with cash and never tied its characteristics to your identity.

You are glad that the only transceiver connected to the device is an external wireless dongle so that when you are done, you don't accidentally connect with your device from home.

You are glad you waited for an overcast day so that you could thwart spy satellites that use visible/infrared light, and that you connected to the AP from afar to thwart cameras.

The list goes on. The guy whose face you see plastered in the news? Yeah, that guy thought his experimental jetpack was the shit. And it was- until it wasn't.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kornhole on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:10PM (#33961825)
I doubt I am any target. I am just another regular Joe living under mass surveillance and avoiding when possible.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Zigurd on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:07PM (#33960285)
You are going in the wrong direction. Lean into the surveillance. Use it to create an alibi.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by siftrics on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:01PM (#33958682)
If the VPN is compromised, you're compromised.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Scoundreller on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:19PM (#33958916)
What are the odds of seven chained VPNs all being compromised?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by siftrics on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:54PM (#33959304)
Doesn't matter. As long as one is compromised, you're screwed.

VPNs cannot break TLS, (unless you're dealing with the intelligence apparatus of a major power, which probably can break TLS) so they cannot introspect most of the content you send and receive anyways.

What they can do, however, is see the domain name of the HTTP requests you send when setting up TLS.

Chaining VPNs doesn't add security by any metric.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kevin_thibedeau on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:31PM (#33960660)
They don't have to break TLS. They just use an exploit to get access to one of the unencrypted sides of the link.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by siftrics on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:07PM (#33962457)
Good point.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:28PM (#33959017)
Why?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by greggarious on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:10PM (#33958794)
>I rotate burner SIM's. I never make calls with the SIM.

Do your family and friends do that?

Maybe it's better to blend in with the noise.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by bobsmooth on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:26PM (#33960594)
Wrap your phone in aluminum foil when you're not using it.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by imperialdrive on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:56PM (#33964130)
You sound interesting and likely good company for a nice meal somewhere exclusive. In SF by chance?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by squokko on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:36PM (#33960742)
What's your threat model?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by RektBoy on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:49PM (#33959243)
So you're detected just by Wifi. Ok. Your phone is transmitting every network you saved. As OSINT you can pretty much fingerprint everybody with just that. And even since phones are using randomized MACs, there are methods to leak true MAC.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by blep_ on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:09PM (#33961823)
> Your phone is transmitting every network you saved.

That's not how saved networks work, as far as I know. If you have a source saying otherwise, I would like to read it.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by plausibility on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:34PM (#33962807)
The WiFi spec has something called "active scanning" [0] for clients (as opposed to passive scanning, where the client listens for the periodic AP beacons). There's something called a "directed probe request" [1] that a client can send during active scanning which will contain the AP's SSID it's directed towards. Whether or not your particular device sends these direct probe requests is probably configurable and different per client. According to this [2] post, Android devices will sometimes send SSIDs in a scan, but not all of them and not always. Might be possible to find the logic here in the Android source code, I assume it's there somewhere.

[0]: https://www.wi-fi.org/knowledge-center/faq/what-are-passive-... [1]: https://dot11ap.wordpress.com/active-scanning-probes/ [2]: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36264440/phone-doesnt-se...

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by omniglottal on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:51PM (#33988132)
Active scanning (where the client sends the SSID of an AP it's trying to connect to) is ironically limited to just hidden AP SSIDs.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by MengerSponge on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:01PM (#33958689)
I break into Tiffany's at midnight. Do I go for the vault? No, I go for the chandelier. It's priceless. As I'm taking it down, a woman catches me. She tells me to stop. It's her father's business. She's Tiffany. I say no. We make love all night. In the morning, the cops come and I escape in one of their uniforms. I tell her to meet me in Mexico, but I go to Canada. I don't trust her. Besides, I like the cold. Thirty years later, I get a postcard. I have a son and he's the chief of police. This is where the story gets interesting. I tell Tiffany to meet me in Paris by the Trocadero. She's been waiting for me all these years. She's never taken another lover. I don't care. I don't show up. I go to Berlin. That's where I stashed the chandelier.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by texasbigdata on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:11PM (#33958817)
Absolutely lost it at the coworking place. Luckily it wasn't too packed. Thank you kind sir.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by cutler on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:30PM (#33959037)
What on earth does this have to do with the parent post? Please enlighten me.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by aussieshibe on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:42PM (#33959176)
It's a monologue from The Office which uses similarly extremely short sentence structure as seen in the GGP comment.

It's also possible GP is referencing GGPs arguably paranoid position on phones, relating it to similar paranoias held by Dwight (the character who delivers the monologue).

https://youtu.be/PlIzKaGBeHk

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by MengerSponge on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:58AM (#33966028)
Nailed it :)
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by lgdskhglsa on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:40PM (#33959153)
it's a reference to The Office, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlIzKaGBeHk
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ww520 on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:43PM (#33959186)
They're both wild tales. /s
[dead]
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by MengerSponge on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @03:00AM (#33966032)
But your essay isn't funny. Fortunately, as they say, practice makes perfect!
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by bullion9872 on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:43PM (#33960847)
>maybe spend more time writing your own copy eh, I think people find popular culture references funny because they are already familiar with them
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by greggarious on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:12PM (#33961843)
Fair.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by zizee on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:29PM (#33960630)
I was talking to someone who was charged with a fairly minor crime, and they said the first advice their very expensive/experienced lawyer gave them is to no longer trust their phone is not recording them, as the local police (australian) use this ability quite freely.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kasabali on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:46PM (#33957663)
So drug lords throwing mobile phones out of the car window after each call is just a movie trope?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by SpelingBeeChamp on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:17PM (#33958900)
I am a reporter, and I cover crime. Occasionally, I cover a story whose publication might endanger people. Think cases involving gang violence and/or individuals cooperating with law enforcement. Before I publish those stories, I contact the lead detective on the case to ask whether that concern has merit, and whether certain people’s names, for example, should be anonymized.

In one of those conversations, I was asked to not publish details about the extensive cellular tracking data that had helped to make the case. According to the detective, despite the ubiquitousness of cellular tracking data in prosecutions, your everyday criminal is not doing anything remotely like ‘throwing mobile phones out of the car window after each call.’ Quite the opposite, they are posting pictures of themselves with contraband to Instagram, and using their phones to facilitate crime as if they were untouchable.

Perhaps drug lords are more careful than lower-level dealers, but I’m not so sure. Total conjecture here, but I suspect the money gets to their heads, which leads to a feeling of invincibility — with consequent opsec failures.

If you keep an eye on major arrests, criminals routinely get taken down in essentially the same ways as the criminals who were caught before them. Despite their belief that they had been taking precautions against those failure modes.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by whoopdedo on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:50PM (#33959261)
> Perhaps drug lords are more careful than lower-level dealers

At a certain level you stop buying burner phones and simply buy the whole phone company.

https://www.npr.org/2011/12/09/143442365/mexico-busts-drug-c...

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by david_allison on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:30PM (#33959052)
I suspect this is survivorship bias: you're more likely to catch criminals who have bad opsec.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Spooky23 on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:19PM (#33961899)
The problem with any defensive strategy is that the opponent only has to win once.

Street level criminals are like Fast food employees - replaceable. The guys up the chain can be invisible indefinitely, but hooking up with the wrong girl, pissing off the wrong guy, being too impulsive or too deliberate with a decision etc can be the one mistake.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by mmastrac on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:41PM (#33959167)
You'd think the criminals would at least watch The Wire for some basic OpSec.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ethbr0 on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:56PM (#33960154)
A big part of The Wire is the uniqueness of the discipline the criminals have, and ultimately how it stems from 1-2 people at the top.

Also, public telephones are no longer an option.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by nine_k on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:52PM (#33957758)
Each phone takes time to be detected, identified, and tampered with. So it may make sense to activate a new burner phone, talk about something sensitive, and destroy it right afterwards, before the law enforcement understands what phone was that.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by at-fates-hands on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:13PM (#33958013)
When I worked in a wireless repair shop in early 2000's, we handled the local FBI field office account. Field agents would come in and I'd chat them up as they sat and waited for me to fix their phones.

This was also around the time remote meth labs were getting really common out in rural areas. Multiple agents were talking about how frustrated they were with getting access to burner phones since most of the companies were resellers. They said by the time they got a warrant to start recording the devices, they were already dead.

I guess the bad guys knew their burner phones were only good for about two to three months tops. That was usually the timeframe from when the FBI got a read on a line, saw a judge and got the warrant processed, to contacting the carrier and getting access.

Sounds like whatever was hampering them in the past has been fixed.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by vic-traill on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:43PM (#33958463)
In The Wire, Lester sells Bernard tapped burners. It's the only way they could get up on the burners before they were thrown away.

There are a tonne of reddit links on this one so I'll leave it to the Interested Reader.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by 1337biz on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:58PM (#33957830)
Call me paranoid but I would assume that intelligence services keep a special eye on newly activated non-smartphones.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by izacus on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:11PM (#33957991)
Ability to detect and correlate these switches has been documented in Snowden leaks years ago.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by jethro_tell on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:13PM (#33958006)
Sure, but can they get a warrant and tap it in <24 hours? IDK, but that sure raises the barrier to entry.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by sgjohnson on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:47PM (#33958497)
When have intelligence services used warrants? They gather evidence illegally and pass it to law enforcement who then do parallel construction.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ethbr0 on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:03PM (#33960235)
Whenever they don't want Congress up their ass. Four things can simultaneously be true, despite seeming contradictory:

1) Prudent opsec against nation-state adversaries dictates that you assume 0 time for them to have a tap on a device.

2) In reality, it takes >0 time, because people processes aren't instantaneous.

3) Intelligence services sometimes break the letter of the law.

4) Intelligence services usually follow the law, because it's less hassle.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by autoexec on Monday December 12, 2022 @10:48PM (#33964564)
> Whenever they don't want Congress up their ass.

That's not really a problem when intelligence services can just "remind" any would-be annoying congress person that they have endless amounts of data showing exactly what they and their family members have been doing and could plant whatever they want into the data they already have.

One of the things that finally convinced Snowden to give up everything he had in order to tell the American people that the NSA was violating their constitutional rights was when he watched NSA director James Clapper outright lie right to the faces of congress. After the truth came to light, do you think Mr. Clapper faced any meaningful consequences for that? Nope. Can you guess why not?

Intelligence services are too powerful to be held accountable by anyone. They'll do whatever they want.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by azeemh on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:59PM (#33994578)
I guess Clapper needs to see consequences.

I think I got hacked for trying to run for Congress.

"If video games have taught me anything, it's that if you encounter enemies then you're going the right way." - Ali G

lol

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by abdullahkhalids on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:17PM (#33958895)
Are you saying that a phone manufactured in 2022 can have its firmware remotely changed to record microphones?

Specifically can your whatsapp/signal audio calls be recorded by FBI remotely in this manner?

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by qbasic_forever on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:50PM (#33959265)
> Are you saying that a phone manufactured in 2022 can have its firmware remotely changed to record microphones?

Yes, court records show the FBI has and continues to explicitly do this. Leaks from folks like Snowden show the NSA/CIA have done this too.

> Specifically can your whatsapp/signal audio calls be recorded by FBI remotely in this manner?

The baseband firmware is at a level 'below' the operating system of the phone. It can directly access peripherals and intercept them, so it could be reading your microphone and passing it along to the higher level OS at the same time. WhatsApp/Signal thinks it's secure, and if you look at its app signature or anything else it looks exactly like the normal app you expect. However your data is still getting intercepted at the lower level and recorded for a state/government actor.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ActorNightly on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:33PM (#33961405)
No?

Baseband firmware is the firmware for the modem. It has no relation to the SoC that runs the phone, unless there is some sort of exploit that allows it direct hardware/memory access. To listen to the mic or capture video, it has to interface with the ADC chip which is not directly connected to it.

There may have been phones in the past that allowed DMA to the SoC from the baseband chip which hypothetically would have allowed a properly crafted exploit on a per app basis, but its not longer the case, as pretty evident by the FBI asking Apple to unlock the phones (if they could access the memory from baseband, they would not need to)

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by qbasic_forever on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:08PM (#33962471)
Many phones have the peripherals including microphone connected or accessible to the baseband.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by TheHappyOddish on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:59PM (#33963077)
Can you provide some examples?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by abdullahkhalids on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:49PM (#33960922)
I am not at all familiar with the hardware design of phones, so I want to be very clear in my understanding.

Are you saying that the electrical signals from the microphone and to the speakers pass through the baseband chip before/after going to the main chip on the phone? Or that the baseband chip has separate access to the microphone and speakers?

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by kube-system on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:07PM (#33961124)
There are varying architectures, so it depends. But at a minimum, the baseband at a minimum has low level access to anything that goes over the network. In some implementations, the baseband can just read straight from main system memory if it wants.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by smoldesu on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:22PM (#33958960)
Honestly, a phone manufactured in 2006 is probably vulnerable to a similar attack. The larger point is that state-sized threat actors (and the carriers they work with) have a crazy level of control that cannot be underestimated. Especially in 2022, it's hard to look at any sufficiently complex smartphone and assume it's not vulnerable to sufficiently motivated threat actors.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by nix23 on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:33PM (#33959075)
>whatsapp/signal

Hint, it's not the application you use but the microphone/speaker itself.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Blue111 on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:39PM (#33958408)
> It's only gotten worse as phones have gotten more capable

I wish my cellphone would not have all those sensors for this reason...

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by javajosh on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:54PM (#33958581)
The camera and mic are pretty easy to destroy if you want to get rid of them!
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by dividuum on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:37PM (#33959125)
Time to put on that tin foil hat and read: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3309074.3309076 :-)
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by Blue111 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @08:37AM (#33968621)
There's a bunch of other sensors though... also don't forget that there is often more then one microphone... like on the Pixel 7
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by bonestamp2 on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:13PM (#33958835)
That's not a bad idea... then just connect an external mic (headset) when you need one.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by matheusmoreira on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:55PM (#33959326)
Are attacks like these still possible? I've read here on HN that hardware makers are isolating the baseband processor as much as possible to prevent attacks like these. Surely there are countermeasures?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by ActorNightly on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:43PM (#33961527)
Most modern phones have signed firmware for everything, so the FBI would have to go to the manufacturer and court order them to hand over the signing key. Or take advantage of a leaked key.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by matheusmoreira on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:49PM (#33961611)
What I meant was chips are increasingly being isolated at the hardware level so that they cannot access other peripherals directly. This would make them resistant to compromised firmware attacks.

People are discussing that in this thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33958252

It looks like the implementation isn't perfect yet but it's a start.

Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by autoexec on Monday December 12, 2022 @10:53PM (#33964606)
I really wouldn't be surprised if some three letter agency hasn't shown up to every one of the major chip manufactures out there and forced them to install backdoors for them.
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by azeemh on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:01PM (#33994597)
intel's ime is a perfect example
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by intelVISA on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:22PM (#33962653)
Ridiculous, when has a blackbox co-processor with DMA to your entire device caused problems..?
Re:Tell HN: Your Android carrier can remotely turn settings on by neets on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:16PM (#33959625)
Ah so that's the hack they were doing in the show Person of Interest