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Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by drewg123 on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:38PM (#33390477)
I hate QR code menus as they are often poorly implemented.

However, I just experienced a QR code check for the first time. That was really nice .. I scanned the QR code with my iPhone, it downloaded the Toast "app clip", which allowed me to pay the bill with Apple Pay. It was totally seamless and far better than handing my credit card to a server to get lost or cloned.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dmitriid on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:42PM (#33390501)
> It was totally seamless and far better than handing my credit card to a server to get lost or cloned.

In most countries I've been the waiter brings the PoS terminal to you and you pay at the table.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by vasco on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:20PM (#33390687)
I've only seen this madness in the US. The first time they took my card away from my sight I went with them to see what the heck they were doing. Crazy system, unsafe for no reason, they can bring terminal to you in the same amount of time, no signatures needed either. All of Europe works as you described, few countries in Africa I've been in the same, I wonder how it came to be like this in the US.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by ryanschneider on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:32PM (#33390758)
> I wonder how it came to be like this in the US.

Before credit cards were handled electronically the server used to have to use one of these to make a carbon paper imprint of your card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter

While they a weren’t _huge_ they weren’t very easy to bring to the table and use, so I imagine we just got used to the experience of the server running off with our card. In wasn’t until the pandemic that I noticed most restaurants using handheld terminals.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by erik_seaberg on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:12AM (#33391657)
In 2005 we were still using knuckle busters with airport shuttle customers who didn’t prepay. Also alpha pagers, VHF radios, and Thomas Guide paper maps. I have to admit they were all reliable out in the middle of nowhere.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by sircastor on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:46AM (#33394468)
I actually used one of these at an Apple Store a several years ago because their payment processing was down. I didn’t have a iPhone at the time, so the alternative was the least-elegant, non-Apple-ish solution ever.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by brewdad on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:48PM (#33401524)
Even that solution wouldn't work today. My cards are all moving to a smooth surface with the card number printed on the backside. I still have a few cards with the raised numbering but each new replacement card I get, as the old ones expire, is the flat style.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by nhf on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:52PM (#33390877)
A few reasons:

1. We adopted chip cards quite late, so a lot of legacy hardware still exists - including payment terminals built into restaurant point of sale machines with a magnetic strip reader, instead of a separate card terminal.

2. Wireless card terminals are not common in the US, outside of things like Square or Toast readers. Readers are usually hardwired to the POS and aren't able to be "undocked" and carried around.

3. Outside of contactless, signatures are still usually required, and people are still used to having the receipt printer at the host stand alongside the terminal, instead of built into the card reader.

This is all slowly changing, and I honestly chock a lot of it up to stuff like smartphone payments (remember, we got Apple Pay before having contactless embedded in the majority of cards!) and smartphone-based POS systems like Square.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:24AM (#33391060)
Contactless cards did appear in the US before Apple pay. I had one issued in 2006. It was just rarely supported by vendors and disappeared as the banks lost interest.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:05AM (#33390954)
Besides being historically grown like that, I see two major differences to the rest of the world:

Credit cards have no PIN in the US (and debit cards can usually be used without one as well), which makes this approach possible in the first place, and the tipping culture that can make it desirable to get a quiet moment with the check to figure out amounts.

Practically, it also means that even larger restaurants usually only need very few POS terminals at a central location, rather than one per waiter, requiring wireless infrastructure in larger restaurants etc.

This is changing very fast, though – I‘m seeing both combined order and payment handheld devices (that support tap-to-pay, i.e. also Apple Pay) as well as the QR payment solution in more and more places.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by timidiceball on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:25AM (#33391066)
> rather than one per waiter

Just want to correct this idea which has been repeated several times on this topic: You only need 3 or 4 for a larger restaurant. The entire restaurant does not pay simultaneously.

When you (the server) are done with them you just put them back in a charging dock or some other communal space.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:56AM (#33394083)
Sure, that is possible too, but what I‘m seeing frequently in the US is a new type of combined order management and payment handheld.

It makes a lot of sense, in my view: Handling orders tickets digitally is probably incredibl useful for the kitchen (especially considering a mix of dine-in and takeout orders).

From there, it‘s only a small (ok, not really small because PCI-DSS, but at least possible) step to also having these things do payments.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dmitriid on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:39AM (#33391807)
Speaking for Sweden: all cards support contactless payments now, and you don't need to input PIN for amounts that comfortably cover restaurant bills.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by xxs on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:17AM (#33392329)
It's like that everywhere in the EU (UK/Europe overall) - the card providers are the same, either way - Visa and MasterCard. However, each country has a max amount to use without PIN (usually around ~50euro[0]), and PIN can be requested regardless. While 50euro is on the low side of a dinner bill, it's likely okay when paying for a single person only.

[0]: The European Banking Authority (EBA) calls on traders to make use of the exemption for strong customer authentication up to 50 € as allowed under Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2018/389.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:59AM (#33394098)
EU regulations require PIN entry every couple of transactions, though, even if each individual amount is below the per-country PIN limit.

For this reason alone, you do need a PIN pad at every terminal.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by ahefner on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:11AM (#33390978)
And, from a US perspective, that sounds absurdly overly dramatic and worrisome. The server is there to serve you, and the amount of money on the line is so comically small as to be hardly of concern. Sending them off with your card in hand is a semi-logical extension of sending them off with cash and expecting them to return with change.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by gizmo686 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:27AM (#33391081)
I've never expected change when I pay with cash at a restaurant. Admittedly, this is mostly because of our crazy tip culture; but I just round the charge+tip to a convenient amount.

The money on the line with handing your card to the server is not comically small. They can max out your credit card with whatever charges they want. They don't even need to go through their POS system, as they can charge your card with any online retailer.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by vinay427 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:53AM (#33391547)
Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well. It’s far less of a consideration in one’s mind when every bank I’ve had in the US defaults to believing the card owner over the merchant unless proven otherwise. These protections are more “balanced” between both sides in a place like Switzerland, for instance.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kergonath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:55AM (#33391891)
> Fraud on credit cards from theft or merchants incorrectly billing is also far more protected in the US than in most any European country, and probably most other countries as well.

It’s a common comment from Americans, but is misleading at the very least.

I have never even heard of a fraudulent transaction that was not reversed almost immediately, and I have been living in 3 EU countries (well, one of them ex-EU now). The procedure is: call the bank, notify them, they suspend the card and send you a new one (usually for free once a year or so, for about €20 after that). Usually they call you before you notice it; they are very good at spotting this.

It’s the same thing for card-present fraud: you have some time to declare your card lost or stolen, and all the transactions after the time you lost it are reversed. Your liability is €50 for the transactions that happened before you called them, and nothing afterwards.

I am willing to believe that consumer protection is better in the US for some specific aspects, but I am yet to see relevant examples.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bluGill on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:34AM (#33392418)
When were you living in the EU? Credit cards have been around for a while, laws have changed over that time. Also credit cards have realized making it easier to reverse charges for fraud makes consumers more likely to use a card. Both are factors, and thus both of you are completely correct.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kergonath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:08AM (#33394629)
I have been continuously living in the EU or the UK for ~20 years. I have never had a credit card.

My first experience was with a bog standard Visa debit card at a French bank 10 years ago (card not present; someone apparently used my card at an ATM in Singapore to withdraw €1200 total; the bank notified me and refunded the first €500 withdrawal that went through).

My second experience was at a British bank just before Brexit (standard Visa debit card as well). I had lost my card without realising it. I called my bank when I found out and they went through the recent history to check every transaction. It turned out someone bought something with the card (can’t remember whether it was online or contactless; a small sum regardless) and that was refunded.

The regulations are very consumer friendly, even for debit cards, which everybody uses. And while they do indeed change with time, so far it has been in the direction of better consumers protections.

I don’t claim that Europe is better or anything like that, just that “the consumer is liable for frauds with their card” is wrong. IIRC, their liability is €50 maximum (and €0 in some countries) for transactions that happened before the bank was notified, and €0 after. Beyond that, the onus is on the bank to demonstrate negligence or fraud on the consumer’s part. In that case of course the consumers is liable and gets a fine at the very least.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by vinay427 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @01:15PM (#33424143)
> just that “the consumer is liable for frauds with their card” is wrong

To be clear, I neither said that not intended to imply that, so I find it a little questionable that you placed it in quotes. I think the protections are more or less fine, but seem to vary more and aren't as clear-cut for zero liability as I've found in the US, but I'm sure this varies a lot by country anyway. In any case, I've lived in multiple European countries for years now, so my experience is not solely from the US.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by codedokode on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:00AM (#33391243)
No, giving a card looks like you are giving your wallet to the waiter and hope that they are honest.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bluGill on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:35AM (#33392425)
not if you have good fraud protection
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by fnordpiglet on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:09AM (#33395093)
Because it used to have to be like this and Americans are incredibly stubborn and refuse change, especially in rituals like paying.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by el-salvador on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:53PM (#33397411)
Chip and pin cards are uncommon in Central America, it’s mostly tourists that use them.

I’ve seen here waiters asking for the pin, writing it down on a piece of paper, and taking the card back to the POS terminal.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by reaperducer on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:08PM (#33390627)
In most countries I've been the waiter brings the PoS terminal to you and you pay at the table.

We've had this in America for over a decade at big chain suburban restaurants like Ruby Tuesday's and Applebees.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by motoxpro on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:29PM (#33390740)
He means most countries that are not the USA. Haven't been to Applebees in ~5 years or so but they didn't do it then either. USA doesn't bring you a terminal on average. I travel around the world for work and my experience is that most countries outside the USA do.

Ah, you edited your response. Mine still is valid I guess.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by reaperducer on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:56PM (#33390907)
Haven't been to Applebees in ~5 years or so but they didn't do it then either.

Must have been the Applebees that you went to. I went to one in 2014 that brought the POS to the table. I remember the year because it was in a state that I've only been to once, for a business trip.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by jakear on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:20AM (#33391034)
Beat middle class restaurants tend to use tableside POS systems. Applebees, Chili’s, Rock Lobster, Outback, etc etc. I understand them and love them for what they are, but it always feels jank to have to deal with a computer when I’m out for dinner. I’d pay more to not have to do that, which is the experience higher end restaurants provide.

I don’t have a computer screen in my car for the same reason. Software engineers tend to produce shit tier user experiences. (Speaking as one)

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by temporallobe on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:47PM (#33390848)
I think one reason we don’t use those PoS terminals too often in the US is because of tipping culture. There is this insane expectation to tip at least 18%, and in fact most receipts have suggestions for 18, 20, and 22%. Any time a server has brought me one of those portable PoS terminals, it felt really awkward, as they stare at me thinking about how much tip I should give for the half-ass snooty service. I imagine many others feel this way, which is probably why it’s not popular. I spend quite a bit of time in Europe and have seen more of the PoS terminals used there, but it makes way more sense because there’s no expectation of a tip.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by stormbrew on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:35AM (#33391127)
Canada has the same tipping culture as the US and we've had portable PoS systems in restaurants for like 10-15 years now (and I feel like I'm being conservative there).

The machine just asks for a tip and lets you put a % or $ amount in, usually with a suggested amount. I'm not sure what difference you perceive here between writing it on a piece of paper and entering it on a terminal.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by oneeyedpigeon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:37AM (#33392438)
The most significant difference is the waiter finding out how much you've tipped while you're still in your seat vs. once you've left the restaurant.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by temporallobe on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:17PM (#33400910)
That was my point - the etiquette is lost when the server is in your presence.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by stormbrew on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:53PM (#33410806)
This just seems really paranoid to me? They can't see what you're entering and sure they can scan the receipt for what you put in after if they want but I've almost never seen them do more than shove the receipt in their pocket and quickly move on. If it's not busy half the time they just leave the machine and come back to get it after taking someone else's order or something.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kazamaloo on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:55PM (#33390904)
Flipping that iPad with 20, 22, and 25% tip presets for a takeout really grinds my gears. But even for non-tip services, people tend to use iPhone attachements to scan the card rather than using a POS machine in the US.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bruce511 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:03AM (#33390944)
Here we both tip, and use the portable POS. First the check arrives (on paper) and you can check that. At that point you write in the tip amount. 10% is normal.

Then the waiter returns with the machine, enters the total (including tip) - you touch your card to the machine (and if the amount is high enough enter a pin.)

The waiter does not handle the card.

There is no awkwardness at all.

I recently joined a newly-arrived US friend at a restaurant, and he paid, but clearly didn't understand the edit-the-bill process, so we tipped in cash then gave quick education.

It's a system that works well, is effecient and secure. Overall you stay in control of your card and your card is only processed once.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dmitriid on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:41AM (#33391821)
You can tip with PoS terminals, too.

I've seen systems where you input the final sum you want to pay, and systems where you can input the tip separately.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by TomDavey on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:03AM (#33390945)
I hugely dislike the POS terminal for exactly this reason: "The waiter brings the POS terminal and you pay at the table."

The experience I dislike goes like this: The server gives you the hand-held terminal and then stands watching you, tapping his/her foot impatiently, while you hurriedly verify the check, then calculate a tip amount under the server's scrutiny. I guess I'm a wimp. With the server's eyes on me, I feel the pressure to tip generously, no matter how poor the service or the overall experience.

By contrast, I find the traditional system, where the server would drop off the paper check for you to examine on your own time, to be private, un-rushed, and less prone to error.

After three decades of paying my restaurant checks without a POS terminal, I've never encountered any monkey business during the brief time the server is in possession of my credit card. Is "restaurant credit-card fraud" really a thing?

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by stormbrew on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:39AM (#33391143)
There isn't really any reason they have to sit there and wait for you unless it's really busy and the machine is in high demand. My experience is that on a slower day they'll go off while you enter stuff.

> Is "restaurant credit-card fraud" really a thing?

The only times I've ever had my card used fraudulently in my life were after trips to the US where I used it in a restaurant. It is absolutely a thing. Do you really think no one's ever thought to skim a card they're holding on to for an indefinite amount of time away from its owner?

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by winnie_ua on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:16AM (#33391015)
In my country they bring in the receipt first, and let you take a look at it. Perhaps negotiate with your peers who pays what amount and so one.

And than in 10 minutes waiter arrive with hand held POS.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:19AM (#33391026)
It does happen, but thanks to the chip rollout, the value of a skimmed magnetic stripe read is falling drastically.

No idea if there is non-negligible fraud in the form of staff copying down the card number and security code for online payments fraud, though.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by oneeyedpigeon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:39AM (#33392451)
Some places, the waiter leaves the POS with you and collects it after a minute. Those are good places.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by filoleg on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:43PM (#33390510)
Fully agreed on both points.

QR code menus 99% of the time just link to the website menu (which existed before the QR code for menus became popular, and is still wack). And it usually sucks just as much as it did before.

QR for a check is a beauty. Exact same experience as yours, there is a local restaurant that did it, and I was prepared for the worst. But I scanned the code, it did the Toast app clip, and the entire process was extremely smooth. I went to that restaurant multiple times since then, and I would be lying if I said that the "qr to pay the check using the app clip" didn't at least partially contribute to that.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:59PM (#33390927)
I find these extremely annoying:

- You need good signal or connect to wi-fi to pay (not a given in many restaurants)

- The restaurant can get your email address by default when paying with Apple Pay

- Much slower than just tapping my card or phone on the POS

Compared to the waiter walking away with my card, handing me a receipt to sign and top to fill in, I kind of understand the trad-off – but at-the-table POS solutions have existed for many years now.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by BHSPitMonkey on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:03AM (#33390946)
It isn't "much slower" when you actually account for the time spent waiting for the server to come around, getting their attention to ask for the check, waiting for them to come back with it, waiting for them to do their lap and come back to collect the card, waiting for them to go run it, and finally waiting for the card to come back.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:12AM (#33390989)
No need for the waiter to walk away with my card if they have a mobile POS, as I mentioned above. Tapping my card and selecting a tipping option takes less time than even opening my camera app.

Ironically, many of the QR payment places I‘ve been to actually have these as well.

I get that jumping from a central POS to a device per waiter is an investment – but why switch to QR codes if all your staff is already equipped with a strictly superior solution?

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by hamandcheese on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:24AM (#33391061)
> if they have a mobile POS

That’s a big if in the US.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by j16sdiz on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:07AM (#33391282)
This is pretty standard in many parts of the world. I just can't understand why wireless credit card payment and mobile pos ain't available in US.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:16AM (#33394230)
They have started appearing very quickly. There is definitely a long tail, but these days I would say I see one at least ever other time I go to a restaurant or bar.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:11AM (#33394194)
In my experience, US restaurants either have something very new (i.e. combined POS/ordering handhelds), or very old (i.e. centralized/non-mobile, sometimes even magstripe only POS, no PIN or contactless capability).

The ones I‘ve seen that have switched to QR payments had mobile POSes before.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by billforsternz on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:46AM (#33392146)
This weird system is one thing I don't enjoy about visiting North America. Where I live, you never deal with the servers for payment. When you're ready to leave, you just leave. Every restaurant has a payment desk near the door where they show you your bill, you tap your card and you're on your way.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by jrnichols on Sunday October 30, 2022 @05:14PM (#33398783)
> The restaurant can get your email address by default when paying with Apple Pay

Can you provide any evidence of this?

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lxgr on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:17PM (#33401326)
You can pick what information you want to collect as an Apple Pay web merchant:

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_pay_on_the_w...

Customers can ultimately set whatever they want as an email address there, and it's not verified in any way by Apple before completing the payment, but defaults matter: The default on my phone was my real email address from my contact card, and I did not even notice that it was preselected in the payment sheet until I got a confirmation email by the checkout system.

In an online payment context, this makes total sense to me: The merchant needs some way to identify the buyer even just for digital goods, after all. But it came very unexpected for me in a restaurant context, where I know that Apple Pay (via tap and pay) normally does not even reveal my name.

I really hope that Apple realizes the pretty big privacy gap here and starts integrating their email relay service into Apple Pay sooner rather than later, as well as making it possible to override required fields in some way.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by arcanemachiner on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:20AM (#33391036)
I like the Binary Eye app. It's open source and comes with a Quick Settings toggle.

I wish it was built into the AOSP camera app, but it's not.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by zaptrem on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:24AM (#33391054)
Coincidentally I encountered this system for the first time last night. Unfortunately it never finished loading and I embarrassingly had to switch to a physical card after stalling for 30 seconds.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by agluszak on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:38AM (#33391140)
> It was totally seamless and far better than handing my credit card to a server to get lost or cloned

In Poland we have Blik[1] for that, it's a national, standard payment process. Works with any bank, in any restaurant, no need to download an app.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by sails on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:20AM (#33391336)
Agreed, these are great and especially useful at reducing the friction of splitting bills

Or if the staff lose interest and you want to leave and keep asking for the bill (seems to happen if you don't order alcohol)

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kergonath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:20AM (#33391706)
> It was totally seamless and far better than handing my credit card to a server to get lost or cloned.

In the civilised world, we don’t do that. Instead, the waiter brings a terminal to the table, or if they don’t have any, we go pay at the desk. Nobody gives their card to anyone. That is a problem with much better solutions than online-only menus.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by sentientslug on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:21AM (#33392011)
In the United States they never bring the terminal to the table. I remember the first time I went to Canada being surprised when the waitress did that.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by pm90 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:41AM (#33392114)
Not never, but definitely its the default. I certainly prefer the terminal wherever its offered.

If there was a way to avoid that last step, it would probably save restaurants a lot of time. Guests could leave sooner as they wouldn’t have to wait around for payment.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by lock-the-spock on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:50AM (#33392169)
The alternative is to pay on the way out. Requires a single terminal at the exit (or just anywhere, s.g. at the bar). It works perfectly fine. Cafes and restaurants across Europe do this more or less as the standard, the more fancy ones bring the terminal to the table.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by vladvasiliu on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:50AM (#33392514)
I don't know about "Europe", but in France it's pretty common to get the terminal at the table, even at "non-fancy" random eateries.

Sure, you could pay on the way out, but that's often painful. Many others are having the same idea, so now you have to wait around, lining up in a place that wasn't designed for people to wait around, bothering waiters who need to run around serving clients. It's usually less of a hassle to just wait around at the table for the waiter to bring the terminal to you.

My pet peeve with the terminal at the table thing is that, despite card payment being extremely common in my area, the waiter will not bring a terminal over when you ask for the check, you'll have to wait some more.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:23AM (#33392361)
Because they have that tipping ceremony - they take your card to the back office, swipe it there and return to you with a paper check and a pen to scribe the tip amount. Also they only very recently introduced paywave cards.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by CharlesW on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:12PM (#33395691)
Tipping is part of the terminal flow. You touch your card or mobile device, choose the tip, then choose how you want your receipt. (This is in southern California, where terminals exist but are still rare.)
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by deviantintegral on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:58PM (#33401187)
As a Canadian travelling to the US for the first time in 2+ years due to COVID, I had a very odd experience in the Minneapolis airport. My meal was clearly done, I'd said I was ready for the bill, but 10 minutes later... nothing. I flagged down the waitress, and she was equally confused that I was still at my table!

I was expecting a wireless terminal, or at least a "come to the cash when you're ready". Wireless units were probably at 75% adoption in early 2020, and went to 100% when things started to reopen as a (perceived at least) way to minimize intermingling among patrons. When I mentioned I was surprised the credit card wasn't wireless (and also did tipping on paper, not in the terminal), the waitress said she'd never even seen a wireless terminal before!

Growing up, tech in Canada always seemed to lag behind the US, and it's weird to see it the other way around.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by rtpg on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:55AM (#33392199)
OK but being able to just pay and not waste a waiters time is basically only upside? Sure, if you have a special case you can still ask, but for most people it's just like "OK going to give the money now". No needing a waiter to come run over to the cashier to deal with you on top of everyhting else
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kergonath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:17AM (#33392324)
> OK but being able to just pay and not waste a waiters time is basically only upside?

Yeah, that’s a nice positive aspect. Personally, I don’t think it out-weights the negative ones. Too many bad experiences with badly designed digital menus.

> Sure, if you have a special case you can still ask, but for most people it's just like "OK going to give the money now".

My experience (around here, so obviously YMMV) is that waiters don’t know how to handle exceptions in these restaurants. When you have to escalate to the manager just because you have issues with the menu and the waiter hasn’t been trained properly (of course they haven’t: training costs money), it removes any positive aspect.

> No needing a waiter to come run over to the cashier to deal with you on top of everyhting else

In these cases I just walk to the bar to pay and everything is fine. It is considered rude in some settings, but then these settings are also when waiting for the bill is not acceptable.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by cinntaile on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:09AM (#33392290)
This is easily solved by requesting customers to pay at the bar. I don't know why many restaurants still have waiters running back and forth with a payment device or the card.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by IshKebab on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:04AM (#33392262)
In fairness, that civilised solution is extremely slow. If you have a meal with 10 people want to pay separately... that's a lot of wasted time just waiting for a card machine.

I was pretty shocked when I first went to America and they just took all of our cards into the back. Hilariously insecure but you can't say it wasn't more efficient.

App payment seems like a good solution.

Currently the only reasonable option seems to be for one person to pay and then split the bill on Monzo - that does work well but some people don't have Monzo still.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bluGill on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:25AM (#33392371)
Historically the laws around credit card fraud in the US was more consumer friendly, and so the risk to letting your card out of sight was low enough people didn't care.

Laws have changed over the past 20 years, but the culture around how we treat cards has not.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by jgwil2 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:26AM (#33394759)
Anecdotally, I've never heard of anyone having a problem getting the charges refunded on a card that's been used fraudulently, regardless of the state of the law. If people were actually losing a lot of money to this type of fraud, I am sure the culture would change, but right now it doesn't seem to be a major problem.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by IshKebab on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:04PM (#33396935)
Where does that refund money come from though?
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by jgwil2 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:19PM (#33400520)
Credit card companies or their insurers I suppose. They must figure it's worth it to pay out in order to maintain their reputation as a secure payment method.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dzhiurgis on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:06AM (#33392268)
In civilised world you pay when you order at the bar (unless it’s real fancy place)
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by kergonath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:24AM (#33392366)
Around here it’s the contrary. Paying when ordering is only on the low-end or when speed is a selling point. In any other setting you pay when leaving.

Making customers pay upfront is a huge “we’re too cheap to pay for waiters so the customers have to do their jobs” warning sign. They are the kind of places where you’re expected to clean the table when you leave. Ok when all you need are calories quickly, but definitely not pleasant places.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dzhiurgis on Sunday October 30, 2022 @07:37AM (#33393527)
I’m so used to it it’s now bizarre I need to have waiter walk to my table 5 times for a 1 euro coffee. It’s also supremely slow and I keep forgetting to pay.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bluGill on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:28AM (#33392393)
Pay up front is a sign that either crime is so high in the area that they don't trust you to eat and then pay (as opposed to walking out the door); or a sign that inflation is so bad the price will change by the time you are done eating. Either way not the type of place you want to live.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dzhiurgis on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:40AM (#33392454)
Sure, Melbourne and Auckland used to be number 1 and 2 cities in the world. Now the cost of living might have pushed them down the drain!
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by dpkirchner on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:29PM (#33395853)
Or it's a sign that they want you to be able to eat there on your lunch break. I've certainly written off restaurants that made me wait a long time to pay.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by InCityDreams on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:46AM (#33391844)
> and far better than handing my credit card to a server to get lost or cloned.

Holy heck! People do still give their credit cards to strangers to dissapear with? I last saw that in the 90's (Europe).

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bambax on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:53AM (#33392529)
But how does it even work if there are more than one person? Does each person pay for what they order? What if you're inviting someone? Do you have to order in their stead so that their plates show up on your bill? Or can they somehow transfer their orders to your phone?

It seems this is a "solution" to a problem that never existed in the first place.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by Woeps on Sunday October 30, 2022 @05:22AM (#33392689)
You peeps don't have easy "hey could you pay this amount" apps? Even if the app doesn't have split billing you can still transfer money afterwards
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by fphhotchips on Sunday October 30, 2022 @06:49AM (#33393248)
Here's how it's implemented on the one that's used pretty much everywhere where I live.

Option 1: Everyone orders and pays independently. Website takes payment through all the usual options + Apple/Google pay. So long as the whole table orders within 5 minutes, all the orders come through at once.

Option 2: One person sets up a tab, which generates a QR code. The other guests scan that code instead of the one at the table. People can order their own food/drinks as above until the tab owner closes the tab. If you forget to close the tab it closes itself at the close of business.

Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by bigbacaloa on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:45AM (#33394465)
In Spain it is normal for the terminal to come to the table and the payment gets split up however those at the table like.
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by SergeAx on Sunday October 30, 2022 @06:51AM (#33393264)
Young people now never pay with their cards, they are using phones with NFC function. So the POS terminal is brought to the table, because no one will give their unlocked phone to someone to take away)
Re:The Restaurant Industry’s Worst Idea: QR Code Menus by Handytinge on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @01:23AM (#33417273)
For anyone playing along at home, a "check" is the bill.

It took me quite a while to work out who was checking on the QR code.