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Re:What “Work” Looks Like by Test0129 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:30AM (#33326975)
I've had more ideas come to me after hiding in my office to take a nap than sitting at my desk. It got to be such a gold mine of solutions that I still to this day allocate 30 minutes of my day to a nap. Non-negotiable. So many hard problems that have been brought to me, or complicated needs for architecture, etc were solved by simply turning my active brain off. When I was in graduate school I'd regularly get stuck on some stupid thing I didn't understand and slamming my head against the paper/book/whatever didn't help. Again, a quick nap and I was good (or at least better than I was).

Performative work is a disaster. I worked in a stuffy IT office of a company before I got my degree and became a software engineer. It took YEARS to deprogram performative work. I still hide when I take a nap. I suspect that if my current company found out I was sleeping on the job they'd still be upset with me. However, my output is so good the results speak for themselves. It would be difficult to fire me for napping.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by mathieuh on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:59AM (#33327133)
I'm the same except with guitar. I always keep a guitar next to my desk, and when I start getting frustrated or stuck with work I'll noodle around for 20 minutes. Usually I feel very refreshed after doing this. Working from home has been a godsend for me.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by carlmr on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:21AM (#33327254)
>When I was in graduate school I'd regularly get stuck on some stupid thing I didn't understand and slamming my head against the paper/book/whatever didn't help. Again, a quick nap and I was good (or at least better than I was).

I remember doing this, too. I would often nap 2-3 times a day in crunch time and sleep less during the night, solving many problems.

I think the problem as you say is the performative part of work, and napping really doesn't look good in that sense.

Since COVID WFH I often also nap instead of eating lunch, which is a double power boost, since a big lunch can make you almost comatose.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by lqet on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:22AM (#33328180)
The three fundamental ideas of my PhD came to while:

1.) Sitting in a park sketching solutions on a notebook.

2.) Laying at the beach on vacation.

3.) Playing Legos with my daughter.

Without these ideas, I doubt there would've even been a PhD.

(There was a period of 2 years in my life where I did not have any significant ideas, at all. During that time, I was employed at a company which offered a constant stream of urgent TODO emails and tickets. I worked until exhaustion for 2 years, but did not get any work done.)

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by jayde2767 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:36AM (#33328286)
I know the castration of ideas in the "Everything-is-an-Emergency" company culture. If you're not careful, it will condition you to delay work because the next "emergency" and shift in priority is imminent.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by lqet on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:37AM (#33328293)
This is exactly how my working days looked like in the last 12 months before I quit. Sitting in front of the screen waiting for the next emergency ticket. Why even bother to start some deep work? It will be interrupted, possibly for days, in the next few hours anyhow.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by qikInNdOutReply on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:46AM (#33330381)
Creativity and experimentation are not needed for survival, so stress hormons flow and the nice things are postponed.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by walthamstow on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:28AM (#33329083)
This is also happening in government, IMO.

Govts get caught up in the latest emergency in the social/media and completely forget about innovation and long term planning. It's particularly acute in the UK at the moment.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by hinkley on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:32AM (#33330964)
I kept my sanity at one place by working on refactoring every moment there wasn’t an emergency. I was trying to make all the changes easier. But that was after having tried several other solutions, including the dreaded Infinite Configurability, which has to be the absolutely best way to punish most of the team for how clever two or three of them are.

I’m working at a place like that now and it’s been an eye roller. After ten years on the project one of the problem people has finally seen this as a problem (though I haven’t heard him admit that he contributes). He’s looking at code now written by two people who have been copying his code style for years, and suddenly feeling the pain of it. It’s great he’s growing, but he’s over forty and should have learned this years ago. I blame a mix of things including staying at one place for far too long.

And I keep telling him this code used to be worse, but I’ve been chipping away at it for some time.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by uglygoblin on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:05PM (#33332444)
I empathize deeply with you. I have been dealing with a system of "infinite configurability" for the last couple years and it's playing out the same way. The best I've been able to do is slowly codify the most problematic corners and put guard rails as many places as possible.

Sometimes I want to put my hands up in defeat and leave but there is also a satisfaction and growth from simplifying the Rube Goldberg machine.

It still sucks though.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by hinkley on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:58PM (#33334739)
"Code coverage" and code that does everything and thus nothing are a potent cocktail as well. You can have 90% 'coverage' on a file and still only be covering 5% of the actual code paths (that's unfortunately not hyperbole, but a real number from a real analysis I did. When the numbers disagree that much, people tend to ignore the terrifying one)
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by hinkley on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:54PM (#33334674)
> But that was after having tried several other solutions,

I should clarify that I didn't mean concurrent or consecutive here, but across several different projects. Different preconditions can sink a strategy. It's hard to get any signal when you apply multiple unsuccessful strategies to the same 'experiment'.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by shakadak on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:11AM (#33343966)
Hi, do you have some resources I could check out to understand the concept of what infinite configurability is, and how to recognize it ?
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by dvergeylen on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:30AM (#33345235)
Slightly off-topic, but as a father of two (toddlers), I can relate to this. I have plenty of ideas but if I have (say) 15min available, my brain won't even start because it "knows" the next emergency / interrupt will probably occur within that time period. A bit sad I confess...
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by mr_gibbins on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:29AM (#33330204)
Snap. Whenever I sat down to cast about for ideas on how to develop the initial form of my PhD, nada, zip. Deliberate concentration on one thing was a shortcut to procrastination.

The 'big idea' came when I was on campus, standing outside smoking. Hit me like a bombshell. I literally ran to see my supervisor, blurted out IT'S JUST A F**G MOLECULE, cleared off his whiteboard and spent the next hour sketching out what turned out to be another 5 years of work.

Those eureka moments are where true creativity turns up, I find it impossible to solve problems through dedicated, stare-at-the-screen thought, but I'll get a brainwave at e.g. the gym and nearly drop the weights on my head.

Companies need to promote creative problem-solving spaces, and I'm not talking about a beanbag area with free lattes, but a sit-and-think, light, non-social way of working that promotes this kind of thing. No idea how this could be done in practice, though.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by cma on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:41AM (#33330332)
The question is would you be able to still get those spontaneous ideas at a background level without also the staring at the screen and deliberate work?
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by lqet on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:54AM (#33330484)
I also vividly remember the moment I had idea 1 from my list above. It was such a nice warm autumn day in the last months of a very turbulent year: I struggled finding something worth doing a PhD on, and in the 10 weeks before, I got married, my wife got pregnant, was rushed into emergency for a suspected ectopic pregnancy a few days later, which then suddenly turned out to be a completely normal pregnancy. I also had an upcoming conference talk a week later, for which I was completely unprepared. Suddenly the idea was there, and it was like a door to a wide avenue opened, with follow-up ideas left and right all along the way. It turned out quite beautiful in the end, and when we published 6 months later, one of the reviewers found the idea "elegant", which was by far the most positive thing I ever read in a paper review.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by samstave on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:00PM (#33334058)
What was the idea/paper/phd about???!
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by tpoacher on Saturday October 29, 2022 @04:25AM (#33382120)
Yeah man, don't leave us hanging!
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by dylan604 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:46PM (#33334602)
>Companies need to promote creative problem-solving spaces,

Unfortunately, there are people that do not understand how this concept works. These are the same employees that stare at screens trying to for a square peg into a round hole, but then see other employees trying it the other way and complain about how so many people are doing nothing when so much is to be done.

These complaints tend to percolate up, and these creative problem solving spaces end up getting removed to be replaced by more work space for the additional head count to solve all of the work to be done

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by spidersouris on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:33PM (#33335103)
> Companies need to promote creative problem-solving spaces, and I'm not talking about a beanbag area with free lattes, but a sit-and-think, light, non-social way of working that promotes this kind of thing.

Would that really solve the problem? I feel like when you're standing in front of your computer screen searching for a solution, it's because you're switching to some different and unplanned activity that you are able to get an eureka! moment. Creating a specific place where employees can go to think would defeat the whole purpose IMHO, because then people would go there and would do the exact same thing as when they're in front of their computer screen.

What may work is promoting short breaks during which employees can do any activity of their liking, whether it be playing video games, walking, smoking a cigarette... Basically anything that takes their mind off work. That guarantees development in creativity.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by sarcoplasmic on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @07:09PM (#33429035)
This is similar to that ai researcher, Kenneth Stanely, and his talk/book about how planning and having an objective sabotages reaching it. "Greatness cannot be planned" I think was the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQPL9GooyI

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by Fnoord on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:47AM (#33330384)
Yes, this is undervalued. It is called the diffuse mode of thinking (as opposed to the focused mode). Walk around in the park during lunch break is work, too.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by psychomugs on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @04:03PM (#33335434)
I got an Apple Watch in the endgame of my PhD to catch all the thoughts I'd have out and about, particularly on runs. I rarely reviewed them and a lot was adrenaline-induced ranting and raving, but the act of documenting helped cement them better and drastically cut out the anxiety of potentially forgetting something really good.

David Lynch analogizes his sitting-with-cigarettes-and-a-notepad-to-catch-ideas to fishing. You can't chase after them but once in a while a big one will come along.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by marmot777 on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @07:57PM (#33351264)
Many top novelists, scientists, engineers, etc., have come up with ideas doing something other than work. We’ve all had ideas at odd times and contexts. Sometimes good and occasionally outstanding ideas or solutions.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by mellavora on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:31AM (#33328258)
Churchill also saw the value of the nap:

“Nature has not intended mankind to work from eight in the morning until midnight without that refreshment of blessed oblivion which, even if it only lasts twenty minutes, is sufficient to renew all the vital forces… Don’t think you will be doing less work because you sleep during the day. That’s a foolish notion held by people who have no imaginations. You will be able to accomplish more. You get two days in one — well, at least one and a half,”

-- The Gathering Storm

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by andrepd on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @06:50AM (#33328794)
More to the point, there is evidence that a 10-20 minute nap at the middle of the day, such that you don't go into deep sleep, improves cognitive function and subjective alertness.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by gman83 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:45AM (#33329224)
If I was drinking whiskey for breakfast I'd probably need to take a nap in the afternoon as well.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by sph on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:47AM (#33329754)
If you were not drinking coffee, perhaps you might as well. I wonder if our cultural addiction with caffeine, an effective sleep inhibitor, is the reason why napping and siestas feels so weird and exotic to our modern minds. "Oh you're from Italy? I heard they take lunchtime naps over there." Sadly only my grandma had such a luxury.

Everybody else chugs coffee and is expected to work 9-18 without pause, like the rest of the Western world.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by scruple on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:23AM (#33330852)
Aren't the Italians known for their coffee?
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by seti0Cha on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:05PM (#33332454)
From what I've seen, Italian coffee consumption is nothing like American coffee consumption. They don't sip at enormous cups of drip coffee while working, but instead quickly drink small amounts of espresso as a break. It seems to me that leads both to less caffeine consumption and more actual enjoyment of the beverage.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by scruple on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:16PM (#33332619)
Certainly not conclusive at all, but... Top results from a Google search:

> Individually, an American coffee drinker consumes about three cups of coffee per day.

> Italians drink an average of 3 coffees a day

It seems that the averages are roughly equal. Of course there are outliers everywhere.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by wrs on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:21PM (#33332682)
Presumably the American is having a cup of drip coffee (100mg caffeine) whereas the Italian is having a shot of espresso (60mg).
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by SoftTalker on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:19PM (#33333476)
More likely these days, the American is having some kind of warm, sweet milkshake with a couple of shots of espresso in it.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by sph on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:59PM (#33334749)
Italians drink small cups of espresso or moka (if homemade), and maybe a cappuccino at breakfast. The morning and lunch time ones are mandatory, then maybe one mid afternoon or in the evening.

If you happen to see someone having a cappuccino at lunch, or, yikes! with their dinner, they're probably a tourist.

When I last lived there, Starbucks and the lattes and pumpkin spice big mugs were a "weird American novelty" for teens in major city centres.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by Test0129 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:48AM (#33332182)
I drink plenty of coffee and still take naps. Its hard for people to remember these days but the "lazy nappers" meme started during the industrial revolution. We've only had a 40 hour week, for example, for a (relatively) small amount of time here in America.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by gausswho on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:59AM (#33332372)
Do the majority of American workers even cap at 40?
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by bobthepanda on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:40PM (#33333763)
At one job? It’s possible and doable.

A lot of people who are working in precarious situations actually work two or more jobs at less than 30 hours each, because 30 is when you qualify for employer provided health insurance.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by pyhtel on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @04:48AM (#33341255)
non-coffee drinker here, never been able to nap during the daytime. I reckon it's mostly just differences between people.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by samstave on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:04PM (#33334103)
>>“Lady Nancy Astor: Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."

Churchill: "Nancy, if I were your husband, I'd drink it.”

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by foobarian on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:59AM (#33332382)
> from eight in the morning until midnight

Somehow that doesn't make me feel much better

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by jerrygoyal on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:01AM (#33329358)
> So many hard problems that have been brought to me, or complicated needs for architecture, etc were solved by simply turning my active brain off.

I get it that it works but wonder what could be the logical explanation of this. I remember this method was also mentioned in the movie Turner & Hooch.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by ethanbond on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:15AM (#33329466)
Not sure at all, but one thing that strikes me is when you’re purposely “thinking really hard,” you’re probably in a state akin to vigilance. You’re trying to assess ideas quickly and move to the next one. If you’re playing with legos, an idea can just sit there in the back of your mind and tumble about a little bit into different configurations and orientations.

I think another commonality is physical activity: walking, playing, washing. There may be some chemical thing going on with muscle activity but also subjectively I have a suspicion that these sorts of activities are essentially pumping noise into your cognitive processes, helping divergent thinking, while also keeping your attention sufficiently occupied to achieve the “non-vigilant” posture toward those ideas.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by LocalH on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:44AM (#33330358)
My working hypothesis is that the conscious and subconscious mind cannot access the same part of the brain at the same time (sort of like bus conflicts). So, counterintuitively, to let your subconscious mind churn on a problem, you have to actively focus elsewhere. This, at least, seems to be how it works for me.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by alfor on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:28PM (#33335044)
When you are focused on a problem your left side of the brain take over (thinking in worlds and steps) When you relax, draw, daydream or sleep your left brain can take over and think in parallel, images, abstractions.

When you dream the constraint on your consciousness (simulation) are lifted to allow more divergent scenario. That’s why dreams can be a bit crazy.

It’s a bit like brainstorming on steroid, letting loose of more constraints.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by sph on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:38AM (#33329671)
> I've had more ideas come to me after hiding in my office to take a nap than sitting at my desk. It got to be such a gold mine of solutions that I still to this day allocate 30 minutes of my day to a nap.

Many of the hard problems in my career have been solved while having a long warm shower in the middle of the work day.

In general, the ace in my sleeve was understanding and leveraging the Eureka effect. Your subconscious is still working on the problem when your conscious mind is doing something else. Often, if pointed focus doesn't work, just leave it in the back burner to stew. Then wait for the proverbial light bulb to show you the way, out of nowhere. It never fails, but I have never heard anyone mention this phenomenon.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by deepGem on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:39AM (#33329676)
Benjamin Franklin had this amazing idea of having ball bearings in his hand while solving and thinking about hard problems. The thinking would eventually make him fall asleep and as he fell into a slumber, the ball bearings would roll off his hands startling him up. It is at this precipice, the fine line between awake and asleep states that most of his ideas came to life. He would start penning down his ideas in this state.

So it worked then, it works now. A 20 to 30 minute nap during the work day has a ton of benefits, including stress reduction. I don't know why it is frowned upon. I have fallen asleep many times at my desk and have been made fun of, but who gives a damn. I would rather be stress free and have some good ideas come about.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by arthurofbabylon on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:43AM (#33329724)
Leveraging the hypnagogic state.

If anyone is interested, the yoga tradition has extensively developed this technique – it’s called Yoga Nidra.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by texasbigdata on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:45AM (#33330374)
It’s pandemic popular as “non sleep deep rest” if you want to try it by following a YouTube guide. Great nap replacement for when you’re too wired to fully fall asleep.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by SamPatt on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:54AM (#33331322)
My guess is it's frowned upon because there's a difference in choosing to take a nap, and needing to take a nap.

The latter is associated with aging and physical decline.

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by nestorD on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:01AM (#33331457)
During my PhD, I had a friend famous for having a pillow on his desk. He would take a nap everyday and went on to finish his PhD 6 months earlier than all prognostications and with some great ideas.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by willturman on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:07PM (#33332486)
Hammock Driven Development by Rich Hickey [1] is a presentation that dives into why taking a step back from the immediacy of a problem often leads to clarity.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f84n5oFoZBc

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by slifin on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:14PM (#33332589)
The urge to invoice a Hammock for my home office to my employer
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by jereees on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:32PM (#33335085)
Just buy it. Look at it as an investment for your future mental health.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by kubota on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:55PM (#33333170)
This! The human mind never fails to amaze me, so often the solution to a work problem pops into my head right after waking up, without even remembering what I was dreaming about.
Re:What “Work” Looks Like by a_e_k on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:58PM (#33336699)
At the grad school that I went to, senior grad students were offered a chance to move out of the lab and into a private "dissertating office" as they became available. With a couch I could nap on, an incredible window view to gaze out from, and a door I could shut for focus work, it was amazingly productive for finishing my dissertation. Those few months were the only time that I've ever had a private office and to this day I still rather miss it.

(And most of my favorite papers came about from ideas that I'd had while on vacation.)

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by conception on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:53PM (#33339253)
You’ll like this - https://youtu.be/toWQ_BQF8Aw

John Cleese on creativity

Re:What “Work” Looks Like by Ziggy_Zaggy on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:41PM (#33339557)
Late to the party but going to post anyways...

So, recent R&D into sleep tech has come along ways in the past 20 years. Basically research has shown that during nap/sleep cycles our brain moves around memories (from short-term to long-term and prioitization) and connections between memories. Also, this process optimizes information in the brain to make the access faster and more efficient thus providing opportunity for neuralogical advanced thought sessions given the datasets after a nap/sleep session.

Some basic take aways include +20% memory capacity per 8-hour sleep cycle and longer un-interrupted access to memory collections. It's also been shown that it's possible to tag the day's memories and then prioritize them during the next nap/sleep session. Significant results have shown that groups that take 30-minutes nap have stronger memory capacity versus groups with no naps.

The face of the R&D seems to be Matt Walker - PhD Brit with intense accent - you've been warned!

TL:DR - The brains basically recharges AND rewires during nap/sleep sessions.

Here's the links:

podcast: The Matt Walker Podcast

book: https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...