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Re:Dear Chess World by jdthedisciple on Monday September 26, 2022 @05:27PM (#32988710)
I believe people might be seriously underestimating just how good Magnus may be at detecting cheating.

Dude probably trains with computers regularly. He has a better memory than 10 average Joe's combined. He's been the absolute #1 of the world for what, 10 years now?

He wouldn't risk his whole reputation for nothing.

I personally take his suspicions very seriously, though I agree that evidence has to be presented sooner or later.

Re:Dear Chess World by epolanski on Monday September 26, 2022 @05:45PM (#32988960)
Hans is known to have cheated, his coach is known to have cheated, add low security in the event, Hans beating Magnus (a player two tiers above him) on black pieces (Magnus has lost only 15 games against black in an entire world champion career) and Hans acting suspicious during the game and here we are.
Re:Dear Chess World by flyax on Monday September 26, 2022 @08:18PM (#32990323)
chess.com suggests Hans cheated more than he admits. He did (much?) better in tournaments with zero delay. In a few consecutive tournaments, he made a lot of top engine moves, slightly above Magnus/Kasparov/Fisher at their best. He had a hard time explaining his lines in the interview after the game (with Firouzja I think).
Re:Dear Chess World by initplus on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:24AM (#32992063)
The analysis of him doing better in broadcast/non-broadcast games was flawed, the analysis mis-categorized several of the tournaments in a way that made the conclusion stronger.
Re:Dear Chess World by flyax on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:43AM (#32993626)
Thanks, I missed that information.

I would say there is more than a cheating history and a single game that triggered Magnus. However, most of it has a possible explanation. Like, I would be very nervous if you put me in front of a camera at 19 years. Are these arguments together strong enough? Hard to judge.

Re:Dear Chess World by TakeBlaster16 on Monday September 26, 2022 @09:19PM (#32990666)
Let the chess speak for itself... because I sure can't explain it!
Re:Dear Chess World by geertj on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:06PM (#32989189)
> Hans is known to have cheated

Do you have a link to this? Proof that this player has cheated in the past would be the strongest evidence, I believe, he'd do so again.

Re:Dear Chess World by jdthedisciple on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:09PM (#32989224)
This is not disputed, he has admitted to it himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU6UJz_X8DU

Re:Dear Chess World by casion on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:10PM (#32989240)
He admitted to having previously cheated. The admission happened during the Sinquefeld cup, on stream, during the event.

Having cheated in prior history is not a question, but the extent and recency of the behavior is.

Re:Dear Chess World by sixothree on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:48PM (#32989627)
I don't know if there's data but people who have cheated in the past often seem to cheat in the future. Having watched some videos about the state of speed-running video games lately intersected with how gambling cheaters seems to never stop cheating supports that.
Re:Dear Chess World by tradertef on Monday September 26, 2022 @09:12PM (#32990626)
He admits to cheating in the video linked below. However, that's when he was 12 (and 16) and his friend helped. It is much more different situation then anal beads or electronics in your shoe.

Disclaimer: don't know much about chess, let alone professional chess.

Re:Dear Chess World by lupire on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:58AM (#32991678)
Also his coach was caught cheating in a titled tournament on chess.com
Re:Dear Chess World by PKop on Monday September 26, 2022 @10:02PM (#32990874)
And chess.com and Magnus have disputed that Hans has admitted to all of the times he has cheated.
Re:Dear Chess World by mccorrinall on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:17AM (#32992030)
Then they should just provide evidence instead of allegations. Innocent until proven guilty.
Re:Dear Chess World by KvanteKat on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:05AM (#32993423)
The fundamental asummetry at play here is that cheating is a lot easier than detecting cheaters in modern chess. As such, I'm not sure insisting on people shutting up unless they can provide ironclad evidence won't just lead to professional chess becoming rife with cheaters (which is presumably the "existential threat" to proffessional chess that Carlsen reffers to in his statement).

I admit that it is a trickly problem, and I agree that Carlsen's behavior here is not beyond reproach. Withdrawing from the tournament only after having lost a game makes the statement much less impactfull since one can not discount the possibility that he's just being a rather sore looser. I would personally have respected his decision much more if he had followed his impulse (again, referred to in his statement) to withdraw as soon as Niemann had been invited to the tournament in the first place.

Re:Dear Chess World by sentientslug on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:08PM (#32989216)
Niemann during an interview admitted to having cheated in the past
Re:Dear Chess World by faeriechangling on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:43PM (#32989579)
Magnus is obviously extremely qualified to detect cheating, I see many other people who are honestly just as qualified as him say that Hans isn't cheating. I'm going to also say emotions are going to play a massive role here, both in terms of defence of Hans and against Hans.

The interesting thing is the one party MORE qualified than Magnus and the other grandmasters to detect cheating is the chesscom statistics team and they think Hans has cheated online recently and didn't admit to it. Still, there's no smoking gun that proves the OTB matches were fixed, Hans can be innocent at least in those specific circumstances, but if he's been guilty in online chess recently is it truly fair to make the world champion play against him OTB?

>He wouldn't risk his whole reputation for nothing.

It is pretty important to realise in terms of Magnus's mindset he has given up on defending the world championship and doing anything other than achieving 2900 elo, the highest rating ever achieved. He is a champion, and that is his goal in life, he wants that rating in a way most people can't fathom. If he proves Hans Neimann is a cheater, Han's win's against Magnus are void, and Magnus's rating goes up. Imagine being the world champion and having your dream drift further away because of a known cheater beating you when they're at a disadvantage, what goes through your head? What goes through your head when you think of how many people COULD be cheating and making getting 2900 impossible? What can others do about the spectre of chess cheating, the world champion, doesn't stand up?

So what I'm saying here is, I wouldn't be super confident that Magnus wouldn't throw his reputation in the trash to become the greatest chess player who ever lived. I think he would absolutely throw away his reputation, but not for nothing.

Re:Dear Chess World by bombcar on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:14PM (#32989850)
And the goal of hitting 2900 is basically impossible if there are cheaters in the mix. That has to really make him annoyed.
Re:Dear Chess World by faeriechangling on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:16AM (#32991505)
Realize Magnus JUST literally lost rating pints to somebody who chesscom has alleged to have cheated on their website recently. I think he’s furious.
Re:Dear Chess World by undefinedzero on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:29AM (#32992088)
Not sure Chess.com is entirely objective. They recently acquired Play Magnus after all, so he will have some influence. The timing is pretty suspicious.
Re:Dear Chess World by faeriechangling on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:11PM (#32998164)
Chesscom is known for being a little extra responsive to abuse reports from the players that it sponsors, which has raised some eyebrows. Their neutrality is a question.

Still people literally know the chesscom cheating team. IM Danny Rensch is the face. I would say there is a fair amount of respect for that team within the community, as well as a healthy scepticism. If anything they probably get more criticism for ignoring cheating than for taking action.

It’s a tough gig, chess cheating is very hard to prove.

Re:Dear Chess World by aritmo on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:22PM (#32989921)
It was obvious that Hans did not make a real effort while playing chess with Magnus. Hans was not concentrating. Hans was constantly moving his hand, covering his mouth. Hans was not paying attention.
Re:Dear Chess World by systemvoltage on Monday September 26, 2022 @05:58PM (#32989104)
Mangus is human after all, who occassionally make blunders of sub-GM levels: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=magnus+chess+bl...

That just shows that he is fallible, which I empathize with.

Also don't forget the bishop blunder by Nepo in the world championship against Magnus. That was a 1800 level blunder trapping the bishop. Nepo is in top 5 GM list.

The fact of the matter is that all GMs including Magnus have the potential to make blunders.

Re:Dear Chess World by stouset on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:29PM (#32989432)
Niemann, as black, equalized reasonably early on and then had a consistent lead against Magnus the entire game. Magnus did make mistakes in the game, but only after a near-perfect grind for 27 moves.

To be clear, I'm not saying this to make a claim that this is definitive proof of anything. I'm pointing out that the theory that Magnus simply blundered away the game doesn't hold water. Niemann had the advantage—as black no less—for essentially the entire game against someone who is widely known for being capable of grinding away nearly-perfectly for extensive periods of time.

Re:Dear Chess World by tzs on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:30PM (#32989979)
On Hikaru's YouTube channel today he posted a video about today's developments [1]. In the later part of that video ran some software that used Stockfish to analyze that game and show percentage of moves where each player made the top engine move.

Magnus only matched the top engine move 43% of the time, which is quite low for a super-GM. Hikaru said he'd bet money that it was Magnus' worst performance in any game in the last 3 years.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ML2b7IdD4

Re:Dear Chess World by jquery on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:52PM (#32991390)
If Magnus was playing to detect cheating and not just to win, his play would reflect that. He did play some very obscure lines just to see if it would trigger Hans to “think” but Hans seemed to play the optimal moves quite easily every time. Analyzing the game myself, it appears Magnus was dragging out the game on purpose by picking highly dynamic lines of continuation that should’ve required long and heavy thinks from Hans.
Re:Dear Chess World by stale2002 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:17AM (#32991513)
No, this is cope.

If the evidence shows that Magnus played badly, we do not have to jump to the conclusion that actually he was playing badly on purpose, for the intent of trying to detect a cheater. He himself wasn't even stupid enough to claim this.

No, instead, I am going to trust other grandmasters opinions that he was merely playing badly.

Re:Dear Chess World by jquery on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:49PM (#32997862)
Later in Hikaru’s stream he analyzed some of his own personal best games and one of them only got a 43% engine match score. So whatever the tool does, it does not conform exactly to ideas of whether a super GM played good or bad, at least not for any single game.

(Sorry for the dupe reply, too late to edit my other comment)

Re:Dear Chess World by systemvoltage on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:02PM (#32989747)
Gotham's analysis here is quite important at this time stamped link: https://youtu.be/pfqXnFNnDII?t=433

I agree but Magnus also plays bad games once in a while. So it is not quite clear from a sample size 1 and a std deviation of infinite.

Re:Dear Chess World by stouset on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:08PM (#32989812)
For sure! It's absolutely reasonable to believe that Hans beat Magnus completely fairly. It's also completely reasonable to believe there's a better-than-even chance that Hans cheated in this game.

There are a number of comments here which promote the idea that this is simply sour grapes by Magnus and totally uncalled for, and I find those perspectives to be overwhelmingly uncompelling.

Re:Dear Chess World by lmm on Monday September 26, 2022 @10:43PM (#32991065)
> Niemann, as black, equalized reasonably early on and then had a consistent lead against Magnus the entire game. Magnus did make mistakes in the game, but only after a near-perfect grind for 27 moves.

Of course he played near-perfectly for 27 moves. That's what it means to be a 2700 (or even a 2500, if you think his recent ratings growth is the product of cheating). Virtually any high-level game will look like that - the players playing mostly perfectly, with on average one or two significant mistakes, but sometimes not even that.

Re:Dear Chess World by Taek on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:04AM (#32991712)
Can we get concrete statistics on that? What does an actual 2700 game look like in terms of perfect move percentage? What about Hans?
Re:Dear Chess World by lmm on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:11AM (#32991749)
What I read was that Hans' average centipawn loss in that game looked completely normal, for him or for any GM at that level.
Re:Dear Chess World by 8note on Monday September 26, 2022 @07:18PM (#32989877)
27 moves being mostly opening prep?
Re:Dear Chess World by Taek on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:05AM (#32991717)
One of the chief complaints here is that it was an unusual line, specifically chosen by Magnus to be unlikely to have been explored during preparation.
Re:Dear Chess World by buitreVirtual on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:39PM (#32989535)
What was Carlsen's blunder in his game against Niemann? If he had blundered badly in that game, it would be a very different story.
Re:Dear Chess World by noncoml on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:07PM (#32989201)
This. It’s like how some people in here have built amazing intuition about where a bug in a system may be, even if it’s a system they haven’t written or designed themselves
Re:Dear Chess World by vikingerik on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:44PM (#32989587)
Those data points are cherry-picked by anecdote and statistically useless, unless you're also counting all the times someone thought they had such intuition that turned out not to be correct at all.
Re:Dear Chess World by radiator on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:17AM (#32994395)
I was agreeing with your complete post, except for the last line.

No more evidence is required. The quality of Hans Niemann's moves, recently as well as during his rise from 2400-rating three years ago, is enough evidence against him.

Either he is a good as Stockfish, or ...

Re:Dear Chess World by Hadriel on Monday September 26, 2022 @08:19PM (#32990329)
He's clearly stated he rarely ever trains with computers
Re:Dear Chess World by Quarrel on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:51AM (#32993671)
This isn't true at all. He is well known for playing and exploring "AI lines" that have been introduced by computers.

Here is the first interview I could find from a 10 second google:

https://www.dw.com/en/world-chess-champion-magnus-carlsen-th...

The money quote:

" My practice at home is with the computer. When I study chess with other people, we always have a chess board. But on my own, it's always at the computer. "