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Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by yawnxyz on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:23PM (#32932946)
This happens because of how Microsoft approaches product development and design. On many product teams, PMs end up doing not only the product design decisions but even designs much of the products themselves.

This works for them because it focuses product cycles on releasing what "matters" to the customer, but it ends up cutting craft and quality. This makes their products poor to use, but is also what drives revenue into their hands.

They don't really need to be the best or the fastest. They just have to have decent products that aren't the worst (I prefer Teams over Webex), and glom those products together into an affordable package.

For better or worse, Microsoft product suites are like the Olive Garden of the product world.

edit: whoa, got more comments than I thought. For disclosure, I did a brief stint as a PM intern there way back in the day. Wanted to join as a UX designer intern, but got shoe-horned into the PM role

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by jagged-chisel on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:27PM (#32932974)
I suggest that Teams only gets used because it’s included in the enormous license that companies buy for Exchange and/or Office and the most popular alternative has its own fees. Large companies don’t want to fork over another licensing fee in the tens of thousands of dollars for Slack when they’re getting Teams “free.”
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by c4ptnjack on Thursday September 22, 2022 @03:33AM (#32935791)
I work for an outsourced tech company supporting a large system of hospitals in the NE USA.

In my team of 50+ people, the last 2 years since starting this contract have been steady transition to using Teams for all communications. They are now moving to use it for scheduling as well with it being integrated with the rest of the Office suite.

Moreover, the entire hospital system uses it as the defacto means of communication. This makes it incredibly easy to connect with any of the thousands of employees we have immediately in a lot ways.

I don't like Teams or the office suite whatsoever. However, I think the real secret to their sauce is simple: > Ecosystem integration > Cram every feature possible into each product

Those two things alone can makeup for all the deficiencies in Microsoft's products within the marketplace. Their software may be clunky, buggy, and terrible to use but if you have those two factors it will stay dominant imo.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by insane_dreamer on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:07PM (#32933274)
It's not only the cost, but it's having to deal with another vendor and maintain another system, interoperability, security, access, etc.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:50PM (#32933165)
Exactly. Nobody likes it. We use it because we have to. We have to because it was already paid for.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by analog31 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:15PM (#32934106)
Also, most users haven't ever experienced software that's any better, with a few rare exceptions such as Excel. We programmers have it so good. "How can people put up with such bad software" is a recurring theme, and not unique to Teams or even Microsoft.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by InitialLastName on Thursday September 22, 2022 @01:11AM (#32935009)
Everybody I know has used Zoom at this point, and has thus seen what dead-simple and "just works" telecom software can be (not to mention FaceTime, which seems to revel in "your never-owned-a-computer grandparent is happy to use this").
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by mijoharas on Thursday September 22, 2022 @01:59AM (#32935221)
If you think zoom "just works" I'm guessing you haven't seen the quagmire of poor decisions masquerading as code that is zoom on the Linux desktop.

Still better than teams though. (With the caveat that it's only useable on Chrome).

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by anakaine on Thursday September 22, 2022 @02:17AM (#32935322)
I use Teams in enterprise, and Zoom for college. At this point I pretty firmly believe Zoom is hot garbage. Teams syncs with Outlook, and basically every org I interacts with uses Outlook and has Office365 at this point.

Teams hasn't been crashy, is responsive, doesn't eat memory, etc. At this point I personally cannot point to why there is so much hate for Teams. Either that or my organisation is doing something well to make it work well.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by tom_ on Thursday September 22, 2022 @03:53AM (#32935956)
It works pretty well for us in these respects too.

The chat is fucking useless though. We use Slack for that.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by matwood on Thursday September 22, 2022 @08:23AM (#32937877)
Dead simple is something like Meet. Click a link and you're on a video call with nothing to install. On iOS, FaceTime is also great.

Zoom is a dumpster fire.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by prepend on Thursday September 22, 2022 @09:10AM (#32938308)
I’ve had lots of small annoying problems with Meet and find that the only people who use it are Googlers.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by ragebol on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:34AM (#32934825)
The managers that force this horseshit on they employees never used anything else before the pandemic. Suddenly they also had to use something with that function, already had Teams and now forced everyone to use it as a lowest common denominator.

At least, that's my hypothesis. It's the preinstalled browser debacle all over again.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by twobitshifter on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:16PM (#32933337)
right and it’s integrated with Sharepoint, Outlook and OneDrive.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by oneplane on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:53PM (#32933585)
And those are in the same boat as Teams: it came with the bundle. (well, one could argue that plenty of people enjoy Outlook, but OneDrive is nothing special and SharePoint is just a bad Wiki going the SAP integration hell route)
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by maxerickson on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:06PM (#32934381)
SharePoint gives you versioned file storage that searches inside of files. It's a big step up from a network drive or whatever.

(and that's just the really basic out of the box usage)

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by oneplane on Thursday September 22, 2022 @08:00AM (#32937658)
So in essence, a bad wiki but with WebDAV ;-) But I was mostly talking about the "everything is different, from the rest of the MS ecosystem" and "everything you really want you have to bolt on".

When you use M365 you even get multiple sharepoint-esque instances where there is the subscription one that you get in your general web interface, there is "your own" instance which is the same but more primitive, and then there is a pseudo-instance which is used by all apps (even the web apps) to sort-of aggregate them with infinite loops as a result (some of the interfaces allow you to browse between the instances so you can to into a virtual directory, then go into the same directory but in the other instance, and from there to into yet the same directory again but in the other instance, and so forth).

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by prepend on Thursday September 22, 2022 @09:13AM (#32938337)
I find Shareapoint versioning pretty terrible in that it versions every change and doesn’t let me do tags or releases. So with office auto save I’ll have 700 versions of a file as people changed one sentence a minute for a few hours.

I actually prefer a network drive over SharePoint because there are fewer lock and sync issues.

Especially compared to Dropbox or Google Drive (or even OneDrive) it’s so hard to use for file sharing.

I literally would prefer mediawiki from the 2000s in terms of ui and support ability.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by maxerickson on Thursday September 22, 2022 @05:23PM (#32944806)
If you turn on minor versions there is a publish function, which is close enough to a release.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by BuckRogers on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:09PM (#32934076)
I use OneDrive as my cloud storage provider. To me cloud storage from the top-tier vendors seem to work well enough at this point. I probably would’ve used Google Drive, but once I learned they take it out of your Gmail storage space I declined. To Microsoft’s credit, your OneDrive storage space does not come out of your app Outlook email storage.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by oneplane on Thursday September 22, 2022 @10:47AM (#32939538)
Yeah, they are all pretty similar. The storage usage is probably due to Google's gigantic user base, or perhaps due to their tenancy model (i.e. you get a 'google account' that also contains 'storage' instead of the other way around).

While some features like versioning and sharing and mail integration vary, nearly all of the 'big' ones do the same thing (OneDrive, iCloud, Google Drive, Dropbox, even box.com and MEGA to some extent).

Ironically, this sameness might actually be a good thing, as it makes it a bit more interchangeable (well, if we ignore the variety in native integrations), it would be pretty bad if there were significant missing features between them.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by BuckRogers on Thursday September 22, 2022 @06:23PM (#32945401)
I do still keep my Dropbox because it has better sharing features. But I only use that with my wife and we haven’t used it to collaborate since she finished her Masters degree. If anyone has the edge with features, it probably is them. Some of the lesser known names I have accounts worth as well, but they’ve had sketchier history with storage issues. OneDrive simply gave me the most space for free, and I usually pimp myself out to the highest bidder.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by SkyPuncher on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:29PM (#32933831)
I think it goes beyond just the licensing fee. It makes compliance/on-boarding significantly easier to have everything bundled. If you're using Exchange/Office, you've already vetted Microsoft for your use case.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by Fomite on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:26PM (#32934171)
This. We asked about non-Teams alternatives, and were told we'd be responsible for hosting and maintaining anything else we chose by our IT department, and that was the end of that conversation.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by cyberge99 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:14PM (#32934414)
I think Teams also offers more capabilities to Enterprise users. I’ve been on a few teams calls with people on the call that are not visible in the attendee list.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by lancebeet on Thursday September 22, 2022 @01:22AM (#32935063)
I have also experienced this but I'm quite sure that it was a bug in my cases. Is this actually a service they offer?
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by shafyy on Thursday September 22, 2022 @03:35AM (#32935807)
Bingo. That's the simple and real answer. They invest heavily in sales and lock in big corporates into their ecosystem. Now, they don't have any incentive than to go the extra mile for somehting like Teams. I think it will hurt them in the long run, but in the short term, it's quite profitable probably.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by tlrobinson on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:08AM (#32934698)
Good summary of this on the All In Podcast last week (in the context of Adobe buying Figma) https://youtu.be/_UpczzfeAFA?t=1162
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by encryptluks2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:58PM (#32933218)
I think it also has to do with how much money Microsoft is kicking back to the right people in those companies to evangelize Microsoft despite knowing that it sucks.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by Qem on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:21PM (#32934147)
In Africa they even fired a employee that discovered a kickback scheme, when he tried to scale the matter up to Satya Nadella: https://www.engadget.com/whistleblower-says-microsoft-spent-...
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by encryptluks2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:58PM (#32934349)
I've known about it and seen it happen but rarely do you get enough evidence to do anything about it. It appears when you do then Microsoft will just fire you and put out a public statement pretending that something will change.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by Kukumber on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:48PM (#32933145)
For this reason the US military said NO to Microsoft [1]

The more the deep state (nothing about conspiracy theory, it's just the people at the oval office, and their surroundings, mostly industry lobby) want to trust and push Microsoft, the worse it's going to get in the coming years were AI, software and hardware will be the deciding factor for the civilization war we are currently living

> Microsoft insiders worry the Pentagon may walk away from its $22 billion contract for mixed-reality goggles as the device continues to disappoint the military

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-military-hololens-...

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by ineedasername on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:07PM (#32933272)
We need another less polarized word than deep state to describe the various industrial complexes entrenched in military & government, and the revolving door of employment between government -> lobbyists -> industry etc.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by delecti on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:24PM (#32933385)
I think "military–industrial complex" is the typical term.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by rchaud on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:11PM (#32933698)
It is, but despite it being coined by a former US President and WW2 Allied General, it is now taken to mean something akin to "defund the military".
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by krapp on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:14PM (#32933717)
Eisenhower wasn't exactly praising it when he coined the term, and the military and military-industrial-complex are different things. You can support one but not the other, although most people who use it in conversation tend to be against both, since it's implicitly pejorative.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by r00fus on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:42AM (#32934863)
It has a bad rap because of the lobbying that defense companies do to ensure their profits are fed by the government. Oh and the wars.

I'd say they're equivalent to Big Pharma or Big Oil - all of which have captured any regulatory agency designed to control their misbehaviors.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by MikeTheGreat on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:33PM (#32934523)
Could you clarify? I'm having trouble understanding the equivalency because "Military industry complex" is a noun and "defund the military" is a verb (more-or-less)
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by adwn on Thursday September 22, 2022 @02:21AM (#32935343)
I believe rchaud meant that the set of people using the term "military industrial complex" has a large overlap with the set of people demanding to "defund the military".
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by runlevel1 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @01:01AM (#32934960)
For those unfamiliar with it, it was President Eisenhower's farewell speech:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower%27s_farewell_addres...

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by KerrAvon on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:08AM (#32934693)
In what circles does it mean that? I’ve never heard that one.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by rchaud on Thursday September 22, 2022 @09:29AM (#32938499)
Among politicians. Military spending is the one thing that never sees top-line cuts, even among so-called fiscal conservatives in Congress that are otherwise happy to slash "wasteful" federal funding for social programs.

You can lobby all you want to cut other types of government 'pork', and you'll probably have some champions in Congress on the same page. Only the military is untouchable. It's un-American to even consider cuts in that sector.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by pessimizer on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:23PM (#32933374)
Or we need to stop banning words because people we don't like start using them (correctly, I might add.) It's annoying that once some people started saying that the country was run by a deep state populated by communist lizard child molesters, the reaction was to start insisting that there wasn't a deep state at all.

Maybe we can say military-industrial complex? Nice, venerable, well-established phrase, notably popularized by a president during his final words as a president.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by troutwine on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:46PM (#32933534)
> Or we need to stop banning words because people we don't like start using them (correctly, I might add.)

Who is banning words? At least in the US you have every right to say 'deep state' all you want but it probably doesn't mean in other people's minds what you might want anymore. I mean, it's the way of language evolution that when a phrase picks up a much different and negative connotation from what it had previously people stop using it.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by dismalpedigree on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:59PM (#32934011)
Military didn’t say no. Congress stepped in and demanded accountability. Military is still having wet dreams about IVAS (military version of hololens). Last I heard was an initial purchase for 1,000(?) units to continue testing. Also the military loves Office 365 and Teams. Everything is done through it now, of course nobody knows how to use collaboration tools and there is no training, so they still email PowerPoints all over the place.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by giantg2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:10PM (#32933298)
I swear I saw a recent article saying they were moving forward.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-us-army-combat-hololens...

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by blahblah12 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:52AM (#32934917)
Unfortunatley like many of the other comments have pointed out. This is incorrect. Most of the military currently uses Teams and O365. The military deal for hololens is going through and the shipments are greater thant he initial order. That information is dated.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by Godel_unicode on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:09PM (#32934392)
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by B1FF_PSUVM on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:12PM (#32933321)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Sabotage

Looks like Microsoft will have to do in the matter of keeping the state from being too efficient.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by encryptluks2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:00PM (#32933232)
Lol.. we all know Microsoft gets these contracts by rubbing shoulders with the right people and they have very little to do with whether the products are actually good.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by crystaln on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:48AM (#32934900)
For the record, have you actually eaten at Olive Garden recently? Their food is actually pretty fantastic. Some of the best Chicken Parm. Definitely better than Teams. Please don’t insult Olive Garden like this.
Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by prepend on Thursday September 22, 2022 @09:19AM (#32938397)
No. No, this is not true. I think Olive Garden’s food is about parity with Stouffer’s chicken parm.

Any bad Italian restaurant microwaving stuff is better than Olive Garden.

I like their breadsticks but everything else should not be eaten by humans.

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by ineedasername on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:03PM (#32933247)
The “just good enough” doesn’t always work out for MS.

We Teams as part of whatever bundle MS pushes for OS, Office etc, but no one uses Teams, we use zoom. A few people use slack, but it’s not pervasive.

If it wasn’t so buggy and non-performant, does it offer any other advantages or “killer features” by virtue of tighter integration to the MS ecosystem?

Re:Ask HN: Why is Microsoft Teams still so bad? by drewpayment on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:25PM (#32933392)
I agree for the most part except the lack of stability and resiliency. I joined a company using Teams 3 months ago and there has been at least one global outage once a month… that’s 3 more outages than I experienced with Slack for the last 2 years or more maybe?