That’s what we assume will work when we apply sanctions on Russia.
If it was less serious, if it wasn’t in our faces that innocent people were dying, if it was something “far away” and “complicated” and not so one-sided. It would work.
Some (perhaps most) people are extremely selfish, even when it’s detrimental to themselves; you see it all the time with people not leaving enough space to collect luggage at the baggage claim at the airport, meaning everyone can’t see their bags and they can’t retrieve them without a kerfuffle anyway, or in the same way that everyone rushes to get off of a plane even when they prevent someone else from leaving who then will also be unable to leave causing an awkward deadlock.
People are gloriously selfish, and if you hit them in a place that affects them directly: they will turn.
The only reason we’re not is because it’s too close and too devastating for us to turn our eyes away.
Using your "boarding a plane" example. Compare boarding a Ryan Air flight from Frankfurt/Hahn to a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt am Main. Specifically these two, because Germany still has a somewhat cohesive culture/cultural identity, and one which values taking care of the community over self (for example, at dinner, you ALWAYS pour water/wine for others before you fill your own glass).
Ryan air. No reserved seats. Pushing, shoving, anger, aggression-- really ugly selfish behavior.
Lufthansa. Reserved seats and gate crew controlling boarding. Orderly lines, no stress, people smile and let the families with children go ahead. I won't call it selfless altrusism, but it is a big step up.
Swedish airports (Arlanda/Stockholm at least) paint a big yellow line about 1 meter back from the baggage belt, and people stand behind the line. Not everyone, but when someone breaks this rule they get socially disapproving looks from the others.
There are two nash equilibriums. When the majority of society shows respect for others, you have a really pleasant society where showing respect/care matters. Freeloaders need to be strongly discouraged, because in the short term freeloading is "optimal". You'll get your bag faster, you'll get the seat you want on the Ryan Air flight.
There is a tipping point when too many people start to freeload, happens at around 5-8%, and the system slips into the other nash equilibrium where everyone selfishly tries to grab for themself. Makes for a hellish society.
The tragedy is that it is very hard to move from the selfish society to the caring society.
I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind.
It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.
we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm.
I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off the freeway" to "everyone tries to push their way through traffic". And just like that, 30 years of high trust is gone.
The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows?
On a positive example, the (US) military puts a lot of emphasis on high-trust.
We are sadly living in an age where the increasing power of money (as "portable reputation") vs reputation based on people respecting what you've contributed to society heavily rewards low trust. Because it doesn't matter as much how you got the money, it just matters that you have it. That, plus the unequal wealth distribution, creates envy and distrust.
And money scales to current population levels. Personal reputation does not.
Not a good example as those were about the child having the discipline to wait the needed time for the second marshmallow. Trust wasn't measured. You can argue that the kid needs trust to get to the discipline part, but then you're not talking about that experiment anymore, and the burden of proof increases significantly.
Also it has been debunked as an indicator of discipline and later succes in life, and has now become a famous example of the reproduction problem psychology is reckoning with. I would just generally stay away from it to proof a point. It will only weaken your position if someone familiar with it.
Sorry for being off topic here, but it's popular use is starting to irk me
We have to invest in our society.
In this war we have already been primed and aligned. Europe has been effectively aligned with Ukraine, whether it was through propaganda or plain high quality media coverage. So at the very least we will be sad to see Ukraine fall. On top of that we have been thoroughly informed that Russia is a threat to the EU, and Russia has done nothing but confirm that belief.
Besides being selfish we are self preserving. And we'd rather be cold and dropped down a couple notches economically, than have our entire union be threatened by some kleptocracy.
Most people would probably be ok with passively waiting for Ukraine to fall, and being cold while doing so, as well as reinstating relations with Russia after the war is over. But I think if EU leadership decides action is needed and we need a more active hand, it will receive majority support from the populace.
The European Union has legitimate territorial security interests and a expansionist empire right next door that is encroaching on your borders isn't something the EU leadership likes to have around.
Considering that I doubt passively waiting for Ukraine to fall was never on the menu. Instead I expect the military and financial help for Ukraine to further increase as it is way cheaper to finance someone else to fight the empire next door than having to beef up your own border security.
There are certainly enough useful idiots around that are clamoring for cheap gas at any price but I do not have the impression that they get a lot of traction. I saw some numbers the other day that 70% of the German population agrees that supporting Ukraine is important, even if it means higher energy prices/colder times in winter. Only the voters of the far right party AfD thought it a sensible policy to drop Ukraine. Not surprising really for Moscow's fifth column.
yes, looks like typical move of Russian-sponsored actors.
Thanks, redscareone, that's exactly the kind of proof my argument needed.
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
Just to check, did you look at the data in this case?
See recent success for "Sweden Democrats" and take a look at the votes in Italy next week.
Also you have to always remember that Ursula von der Leyen could only get into her position with the help of the vote of far right - she will never be against far right for that reason alone.
There is a huge theater going on re "european values" - this is not reflected by reality. E.g. the current "measures" taken against Hungary are seen as a joke.
Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.
Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.
Did you mean to end in "/s" for sarcasm?
Armenia was the very first country in the world to adopt Christianity, and is officially Christian to this day. As for "non white"… do you know where the term "Caucasian" comes from?
You may not consider Armenians "our people", that's your call. But you don't get to hide behind Armenia's religion or ethnicity.
Maybe you get downvoted because you’re confrontational and can’t seem to properly understand what you read?
It's as if they need to prove that they are worth to be supported, instead of deploying what is needed as early as possible.
In a way, yes - if Russians managed to take over in the first days, all this modern weapons would be in their hands.
My only interaction with Ukrainians has been through video games and I've not seen any difference in behavior from Russians, mainly they've been selfish, refusing to speak English and just a pain to cooperate with
If you don't want to care about them that's fine but please do not project your lack of empathy to others as to what this really is about.
I just don't see why I personally would have more sympathy for Ukrainians than the other countless people who are at war all over the world and have been at war constantly for decades. I understand caring more about this war because it's near the west and there's a chance it triggers WW3 but I believe most people, especially US citizens only show sympathy because of their party affiliation or to virtue signal or because if you don't you'll get ostracized etc.
The domino theory holds here and the only way to stop it is to make sure the current domino (Ukraine) does not fall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia–European_Union_relatio...
https://europeanmovement.eu/news/european-parliament-include...
I think your comment is way to black-and-white and or without scope.
If I take a look at twitter, there are people saying exactly that [2]. Not using that phrasing, of course, but there people, even politicians (mostly from the left [0] and right [1] end of the spectrum), who demand the end of sanctions against Russia so we can have cheap gas again.
[0] https://www.sahra-wagenknecht.de/de/article/3189.hebt-die-sa...
[1] https://www.merkur.de/politik/afd-chef-tino-chrupalla-ukrain...
There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own.
Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving Ukrainian lives. It’s actually far from obvious that prolonging the war saves lives. But most of the EU has taken a very Atlantist position on this conflict and at this point it’s probably better to keep going and significantly neuter Russia.
EDIT: „the longer is occupation..“ will be more correct. This is an incentive for liberation more than for negotiation.
Russia is deteriorating and is apparently trying to solve it with conquest. Giving in would be like telling the police to don't disturb the mob when doing extortion, someone might get killed.
I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population.
I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of good and evil with a single acceptable outcome and where anything short of total support for one side to keep fighting is seen as wrong.
Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs.
You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.
2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want.
3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible.
4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means.
I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.
I said focusing on that makes you analysing conflicts poorly and expose you to be manipulated. I am most definitely not pro-Russian. I am very much pro the interests of my own country first however.
I don’t foresee Ukraine getting back Crimea ending well for the population of Crimea. Let’s not forget Crimea has tried to be independent since 1991 and Ukraine had to send its army there in 1995. I don’t think a peaceful reintegration is possible.
This is how you stand up to a bully. Every child knows this instinctively. Putin overplayed, and now he gets to stew in it.
A few days ago I walked past very loud protests of people demanding peace and good relationships with Russia, in Vienna.
So far, they seem to be a minority. The hardliners wanting us to go all in the fight are an even smaller minority. The vast majority are attentist (as usual), and governments (at least mine) are printing all the money they can to pay for energy bills, to avoid reaching a tipping point of discontentment.
I agree with you that Putin might have underestimated the capacity of EU members to support each other and Ukraine against his game of on and off with gas.
I also would not cry victory against "General Winter" on the 19th of September.
We killed one of our former presidents at the execution wall because of rationalized food and cold in our homes. I am European.
And before anyone comes in and says: "you killed Ceausescu because you wanted communism deposed!". No, we didn't, we wanted "communism" that would provide us with food in the stores and heat in our homes, "communism with a human face", as they were calling it. That's why at the 1990 general elections we overwhelmingly elected a former Communist Party apparatchik.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_execution_of_Nicolae...
My remark is of a philosophical nature how a culture/society creates its myths and their role in the dynamics of elites and the subjects. None of the comments, neither the original article nor on this thread cover even 1% of the reality on the origin of the crisis (energy), nor does it explain how the current EU energy market has been developed by whom and who it keeps in power, and what might be the solution (bashing Putin and puffin our proverbial chest is not it I know that much).
How such medieval mentality that we display here and in general media (us vs Putin) is so pervasive gives little hope that we even care to know the truth, care for real solution, or even care for ourselves. There is just so much to unpack that there is no chance here from such a simple sentence.
The origin of the energy crisis is very clear: Germany's leaders have been instrumental in tying the cart to the horse of Russian energy for decades to the loud, repeated warnings of others. This is a crisis largely self-inflicted.
Medieval mentality is what I'd use to describe Putin's belief in conquest as an acceptable act of negotiation in the 21st century. It is not. Humanity deserves better than people who believe in annexing their neighbors. Strong, unified condemnation is how the world says no, we do not accept.
EDIT: here is just a taste of how Russians do war: they've turned Bakhmut into Mordor [1]. That is a medieval mentality.
[1] https://libreddit.tiekoetter.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/xh...
Resources is a zero sum game despite what the propaganda says
Sometimes the only appropriate answer to tribal, violent attack, is violence in return.
I see that as a good thing.
Most of the proponents of giving in to Putin's tempting offer are coming from the right populist AFD party or from former East Germany.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/220715-politbarometer...
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/politbarometer-union-...
70% say that we should still support Ukraine even with high energy prices. And this value is stable so far.
The Nordstream 2 issue is more complex, and I don't think the people answering the poll fully understand it. I also don't know how exactly it was worded in your poll. Opening NS2 would not actually change anything, we already have enough pipelines for all the gas from Russia. But it would appear as if Germany was giving in to Russian demands, that we let Russia yank us around with obviously untrue claims about why NS1 is not delivering gas. NS2 is a political issue and a very touchy subject for our allies, which is why it's dead and Germany won't revive it, that would be a dipomatic catastrophe.
Plenty of people do. Plenty of people aren't even waiting until they're code, they just say "We might be cold later, so it's fine to kill Ukrainians."
Hell, many even say it's Ukrainian's own fault that they're getting killed for resisting, and our fault for enabling them by sending them weapons.
Putin is counting on the rest of the world to be predominantly a bunch of immoral, spineless cowards, and he's not even that far off with that assumption.
Give it one good cold winter and Ukrainians will also become sub-humans.
This is simply not true. When Bush decided to invade Iraq, there were biggest anti-war protests in European (and possibly world) history, gathering millions (not thousands) of people in practically all major European cities. It was wrong then, it is wrong now. We didn't "sleep quite soundly."
But this must have slipped Muslim extremists' attention because France got their share of terrorist attacks afterwards anyway.
Just look at French involvement in Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_involving_Fran...
I'm sure we're all happy to support Eurocrats again in their quest to get Ukraine in NATO for no good reason at all and -like they say- fight Putin to the last Ukrainian.
And it is fine killing russians for you I suppose ? Because "they are the bad guys".
And maybe you are okay to kill peoples in middle east, because they need "democraty", they have "terrorists", and their leader is a "dictator".
The very core of who we are ? Brainwashed. That's what we are.
I know this statement was being repeated in Russian state TV. But the sole blame for these deaths is with Putin, because he started the killing in 2014, just like he did in 2022.
Of course I don't want Russian soldiers to die, these are human beings with families etc. (although some of them seem like soulless beasts, I hope that's minority). This doesn't change the fact that it's Putin who sent them to death, not Ukrainians. None of them would have died if you hadn't attacked Ukraine.
He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could we look in the mirror? It's against the very core of who we are. Of course people are concerned, but the solutions are non-Russian sources of energy exclusively.