The thing is, English really wants all singular nouns tagged with a determiner - that can be an article, possessive such as "my, your," etc., demonstrative such as "this, that,", or other determiners such as "any, all, one, some," etc.
Exception is when the noun is referring to its concept in the abstract (think type of X instead of instance of X).
So, "the X" means the speaker has a particular X in mind and is expecting you to know which X he/she is talking about it - either from previous conversation, assumed shared experience/culture, or rarely the speaker intentionally wants you to feel like you're missing out on something. "A/an X" means the listener isn't expected to have been tracking X.
IMHO more difficult than articles is explaining the perfect aspect of verbs - e.g. difference between "I X'ed" and "I have X'ed".
English has something like particles too - often called phrasal verbs. E.g. knock and knock out mean two completely different things.
You need an article here.
If there's only one exception, it should be, "The exception is when...", and if there are multiple exceptions, say, "An exception is when..."
("I" don't know why, "it" just happens sometimes.)
Or for instance, if you're viewing a house on the market: "Kitchen is to the left, sitting room to the right; office is upstairs." It's certainly a casual register, but it's no less grammatical than including the articles explicitly.
In the ancestor comment's "Exception is when ...", the article is implied but elided, in the same way. (I inferred "the".) You could argue whether it's effective to drop the article there, because it's ambiguous in the way you noted, but it's still grammatically valid. (Chomsky's "colorless green ideas" is the usual example where semantic sense diverges from grammatical validity.)
It’s possible that my sensitivity to this kind of error (or causal register, if you prefer) is due to experience learning other languages that don’t have articles like those in English. I doubt it, though. Many others probably also find sentences stripped of articles as jarring, and that’s useful for anyone learning English to know.
As I learner, I generally want it to be understood by speakers of the language as easily and with as little friction as possible.
Native speakers learn that it should be "big red bus" rather than "red big bus", however most couldn't list the ~7 adjective types and order they should be used in, yet will know straight away when they're wrong.
The oft-repeated opinion-to-purpose order of adjectives has decent descriptive power, but is easily oversold; the classes described do not have consistent ordering across contexts. The same woman may be an "old American woman" when interviewed for his opinions on global politics, or an "American old woman" in the context of comparing healthcare for the elderly across countries.
The "big bad wolf" is a fairy-tale villain; a "bad big wolf" is a failure at being a big wolf.
Maybe a certain extended family of languages, but not, as far as I'm aware, the language being discussed in this thread, which has no particular preference for adjective order.
Clearly it's the lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. Any minor reordering of these adjectives just sounds innately wrong.
You just have to train your skull-housed neural network with lots of examples.
I'm from America and this was taught in primary school. At school you learn a lot about English grammar. I'm sure it's similar in Japan with Japanese grammar.
In practice, we don’t get tested on identifying the proper grammar structure much, and so probably the vast majority of people forget how to classify it as adults. I know I have.
opinion, size, age, shape, color, origin, material, purpose
The adjective closer to noun tends to describe something more like an 'essence' of the noun. Changing the purpose adjective, eg 'savings account' to 'checking account', is more fundamental than changing other kinds of adjectives. The opinion adjectives are the most superficial and most fickle among them.I haven't tested this extensively enough. Your thoughts and counterexamples welcomed!
She was baffled when I replied that I hadn't heard of The Conservatory before.
It took us minutes to understand she meant a conservatory: they studied at a music school. I agree that it's more complex than native speakers realize.
Right - and as I didn’t, I assumed she was using a proper noun. It’s fine English either way! Language is fun.
No, it isn’t. I frequently see native speakers refer to “the store” when that doesn’t hold — hence why it feels like a special case or break from the usual rules.
> I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work,
Native speakers say “the store” even when there’s no expectation that a) I know which store they mean, or b) I go there myself or will in the future. ie, the standard you use for deciding whether “the” would work in the conservatory example.
Even under your new standard, you should say that “the conservatory” is fine as long as the listener “goes/has gone to conservatories”.
Finally, in case it matters: yes, I have had native speakers (my parents) say “the store” even when I (also a native speaker) didn’t go shopping at all, being too young to do it. (This is why oh-so-clever rhetorical questions should be used with caution.)
That's the end of our conversation, we're discussing grammar and its colloquial use, not anything that requires "good faith argumentation". Inane.
I agree that if you're not going to take the discussion seriously, you probably shouldn't join it -- it just makes HN worse. Strawman argumentation doesn't suddenly become okay just because "hey man, we were just discussing grammar and its colloquial use", as if it's somehow okay to deliberately misinterpret someone and waste their time in that case.
> Native speakers say “the store” even when there’s no expectation that a) I know which store they mean,
The other person doesn't need to know, it's acting like a specific place has been introduced without it being introduced because to specifically introduce it is wasteful.
> or b) I go there myself or will in the future. ie, the standard you use for deciding whether “the” would work in the conservatory example.
Everyone except the terminal and imminent misfortune will go shopping to the kind of shop "the" will be put in front of. If you were a musician and said "when I went to the conservatory" I wouldn't blink either.
> Even under your new standard, you should say that “the conservatory” is fine as long as the listener “goes/has gone to conservatories”.
It may well be, and it still fits with what I described, and expected shared experience that is assumed to need no further introduction for the rest of what is about to be told.
> Finally, in case it matters: yes, I have had native speakers (my parents) say “the store” even when I (also a native speaker) didn’t go shopping at all, being too young to do it.
You have been or will go shopping in your life, and you know or will come to know what they are referring to. Older people will often use language to youngsters that youngsters do not fully understand yet. It helps the youngsters come to understand it.
> (This is why oh-so-clever rhetorical questions should be used with caution.)
Because they point out the stupidity of a response and may invite further stupidity in response? Yes, that is a downside.
>The other person doesn't need to know, it's acting like a specific place has been introduced without it being introduced because to specifically introduce it is wasteful.
That was in response to the reply where you said:
>I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work,
In other words, I only brought that up, because you were saying it falls under a case where both people know which one it refers to. If you weren't using that defense, you shouldn't have replied here.
>>Even under your new standard, you should say that “the conservatory” is fine as long as the listener “goes/has gone to conservatories”.
>It may well be, and it still fits with what I described, and expected shared experience that is assumed to need no further introduction for the rest of what is about to be told.
Great, but there you're definitely diverging from native speaker usage (as illustrated from the original comment [1]) -- native speakers do not otherwise use "the" for such cases, and would agree you shouldn't say "the conservatory" in that case just because the listener has also gone to a conservatory.
>You have been or will go shopping in your life, and you know or will come to know what they are referring to. Older people will often use language to youngsters that youngsters do not fully understand yet. It helps the youngsters come to understand it.
True, but irrelevant to the issue at at hand. Here you were claiming that it's fine because it's expected that the listener has already shopped at that store. If you want to switch to "well, they're going to model how other people would treat the store's definiteness" that is a different reason for making the noun definite here, which would still make this case different and break the usual pattern of when a noun is made definite.
>>(This is why oh-so-clever rhetorical questions should be used with caution.)
>Because they point out the stupidity of a response and may invite further stupidity in response? Yes, that is a downside.
Any stupidity it pointed out was on your own side -- you were absolutely incredulous at the idea that there might be a native speaker that never goes shopping. Haha! Point for you! What a dumb argument! Now everyone will see the light because you have pointed out a clear absurdity in the other person's position!
Except ... such people (non-shoppers) do exist. Which means, not only did you make a demonstrably false assumption, you were calling the other person stupid despite being correct, and adding one more layer of correction that has to be resolved before the discussion can continue.
Yeah -- that counts as a reason to be cautious of that technique.
"On my last vacation I went to the beach to work on my tan." vs "on my last vacation I went to a beach to work on my tan". "The beach" feels like I went to a specific beach on purpose (or that there was only one), while "a beach" feels like I just picked one at random.
"On my way here I stopped at the store to get an apple" vs "On my way here I stopped at a store to get an apple". Similarly, "the store" implies intentionality/singularity, while "a store" implies I happened upon it.
ze heeft op/aan het conservatorium gestudeerd - she studied at (the) conservatory
hij heeft op/aan het hbo/de universiteit gestudeerd - he studied at (the) college/university
I found this page by the British Council to be quite comprehensive, but may still miss something (eg. 'go to school' vs 'go to the school')
https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/english-gram...
Do you know of some other resources that explain many grammatical points well?
[edit] "I go to Church" works because Church is a proper noun when used in that sentence (and it's only used as a proper noun by devout Christians). Properly they mean "I go to [the/a] church", and the reason they leave out the particle is that they mean "THE CHURCH" but they want to sound humble, so they can't say that; but they also can't say "I go to a church," because that would be denying that the church they go to is the One True Church. That's why they don't use a particle in that particular phrase. The proper particle is "a", and "church" shouldn't be capitalized.
[edit2] this is not an attempt to start a religious flame war. I'm just commenting on the grammar.
[edit3] Just to demonstrate the proper noun thing I'm referring to, Jews "go to Temple" (capitalized, proper noun), or go to a temple, but they don't "go to temple".
Regarding “I go to Church”, the verb to go here doesn’t actually mean movement, it’s a euphemism for “I worship”. Same with “temple”. If you say “I go to a/the church” you are actually stating movement towards a definite or indefinite place.
Again, these are challenging subtleties for language speakers where all nouns are conceptual. And most native speakers can’t explain these exceptions spontaneously
In my hometown: There's only 1 of each and wouldn't be confusing.
Where I live now: Which one?
These don't refute GP's definition, your examples are just missing the shared context that determines whether it's correct or not.
"I went to the the train station to pick up a map on my way here". "Great, thanks!"
It was a specific train station that I chose intentionally or visit regularly, but it's not relevant to the conversation which one.
If I were to use "a train station" then it implies I didn't care which train station it was.
You're definitely wrong here, because "I go to school" and "I go to work" are equally grammatical statements, and there is no way to construe those as involving proper nouns. You can also see this construction with words like bed or the various mealtimes.
The commonality I can derive from these various examples is something along the lines of "state of being," although I find that a poor descriptor. This kind of formation is limited to relatively few locations (you can't say "I go to mall" for example), but for everything I can think up, you can also use the word sans determiner in other circumstances ("College has gotten expensive as of late," for example).
The "I go to Church" example, is a case in point. In both German and Spanish, a definite article is required.
That shows that, while there is a systematic difference between "a" and "the", it breaks down in many edge cases.
This was some truly bizarre reasoning based off one example and it has zero actual foundation in language. One of the strangest comments I’ve ever seen on HN.
(And then there's US Eng vs UK Eng...)
I went to hospital.
I went to the hospital.
Where would that be standard?
As others have pointed out, ESL learners ask questions about English articles all the time, and it helps them understand how the language works faster than if they had to brute-force the patterns.
There is no "natural" way to learn, there's just ways that work and ways that don't. The fastest way to learn a language is by having comprehensible input, and more input becomes comprehensible with directed, structured study.
For example, I lived and studied in Japan, and while I probably jumped from zero to ~middle-school in terms of basic communication ability in about a year with daily classwork and total immersion, I was nowhere near the average toddler in terms of basic fluency after that time. Even now, I can make myself understood in most adult-level contexts where a toddler would be helpless, but nobody would ever confuse me for a native toddler.
It's not just accent, either -- little kids still routinely teach me vocabulary and grammar.
Having to communicate with your family (and probably close friends/significant other/etc.) exclusively in the language probably makes a big difference as well.
I agree that if I could do nothing but spend 3 years in total immersion, I'd probably accumulate an adult-level vocabulary (again, the ramp-up is steep), but I still wouldn't sound like a native at that point, whereas a toddler would sound like a native...but have a toddler vocabulary.
A 6 year old needs to learn $LANGUAGE and science simultaneously
Adults win in acquisition speed because we already have a template for learning a language.
It is the same for kanji for me. I usually don't actively know something by seeing it and reaching for it, I just see it enough times that one day I "feel" the answer first. I never go "Oh yes, that's the kanji for cat, this is definitely correct". My brain goes "CAT!", and then I just have to assume this is the kanji for cat. Almost like there's a disconnect between active recall and knowledge stored from repetition.
Same for English. I did learn it, I also forgot it. It’s not in there but it is. Same for being able to explain verb conjugations.
I agree though on some points for sure. Especially how well my German fiends (for example) understand the theory of English compared to me.
To your point though, I taught myself to read at age three and was reading adult fiction by fourth grade, I've always been told I have a large vocabulary, and still had a lot of trouble in that class around parts of speech and grammar, because I apparently skipped out on essential English language skills by teaching myself to read and not learning by immersion.
My theory of language was fundamentally different and I had to relearn English from the bottom up. This also caused me to perform terribly in foreign language classes as I was learning concepts I should have already learned about English... I wasn't just learning a foreign language, I was learning my own language at the same time.
Explicitly rather than implicitly, I mean. I believe this is still expected of high school graduates in America, yes? So the use of the negative particle in the first sentence isn't indicated.
I'm taking a course from my university and am active on Duolingo. How do you suggest I practice? How did you?
Add a occasional speaking lesson with a teacher on iTalki.
For instance, Japanese い (i) is similar in pronunciation to the letter 'i' in various Germanic languages (e.g. Dutch, German, Swedish). The romaji reflects this similarity.
Enter Wanikani's (Tofugu's) explanation:
> い is pronounced like the ee in "eel." To remember this kana, just think of a couple of eels hanging out.
Like I mentioned, this is probably useful for L1 English speakers, but it is not worth having to go from Dutch 'i' to English 'eel' in order to finally go to Japanese い (i).
Currently, though, I use DuoLinguo (yeah, not very comprehensive, but the gamificaiton works to induce me to use it every day, and a little study every day is better than none) and occasionally write up "Moments" (blog posts) on HelloTalk. As there's no IRL language schools that teach Japanese in the area I live currently, I hope to do online lessons some day, but those can be spendy and I'm not currently at a point in life with much disposable income.
I was going to sign up for a class, but noticing this has made me reconsider, and now I am planning to just take private lessons for the same amount of money (or cheaper, as a class needs to move at the pace of its slowest student).
But if you want to be thrifty, I have heard of people who mostly self-study, and only consult with a private teacher to practice their speaking. I don't think Duolingo is a truly effective way to learn, but the last time I tried it was a decade ago.
The community on /r/LearnJapanese is massive and contains a lot of information.
Reading explanations helps. Immersion helps too. They are both useful tools, and for many people, immersion or "the natural way" are not available unless they move to a different country, so reading explanations is a perfectly reasonable approach.
It's really the more natural way to learn in the end. In all my studies I feel like I never really retained the differences between へ and に for very long, and the same with は and が, but I managed to get to a point where I could use the right one far more often than not based on what just felt right. So don't sweat it too much if you can't remember all these particles; just keep practicing and it should fall into place eventually.