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Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by drawingthesun on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:08AM (#32529582)
Moved on to where?

Windows has adverts in the start menu!

Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

Since I moved to Mac from Windows I’m thankful for macOS even if it could be better, it’s still much more usable than the alternatives.

I find myself spending more time on my professional work and less time fixing driver issues or fighting annoying in OS ads.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by davrosthedalek on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:25AM (#32529669)
I am the "analysis software coordinator" for a nuclear physics experiment (MUSE). The software framework we use was originally developed by me, on a macbook pro, mainly, targeting both MacOS and Linux. We have to onboard new students regularly, and it's quite a software stack to compile (Geant4, root, helper libs, our framework). 5-10 years ago, I was happy if a new student was on Mac. Slap homebrew on it, install the dependencies, install the software. Pretty straight forward. But now, it get more and more brittle. New xcode? Better start downloading new versions and recompile everything, and pray that it works. Now I am actually happy if somebody brings a windows laptop. Slap on WSL, install ubuntu, just works. The number of students we had who used linux already on their laptop I can count on one hand with no fingers :(, but our new postdoc directly ran into an opengl problem on AMD which makes the gpu restart.... So from that perspective, Windows+WSL, with all its warts, comes closest to usable.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by ssivark on Sunday August 21, 2022 @11:43AM (#32541260)
On a tangent -- You might want to look into Guix (at least just the package manager, if not the whole system/distribution); it seems quite popular for similar use cases. See, eg: https://hpc.guix.info/about/

Also, with regards to linux, what stops you from making that the default that students onboard to? I would imagine that something like this becomes quite easy if you have a culture where group members help onboard the new ones into the ways of doing things.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by davrosthedalek on Sunday August 21, 2022 @06:30PM (#32545151)
They typically have one laptop, and a) they are not happy if I tell them that they need to switch to linux (and no word, less games...) b) it's often cheaper laptops with questionable linux support.

It's not like we can buy them a work laptop. At least not for each undergrad.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by noughtme on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:41AM (#32529749)
Docker? After attemping to install dependencies and build GIS tools originating in the 90´s, I am so thankful for people who have published docker images of obscure software.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by davrosthedalek on Saturday August 20, 2022 @10:06AM (#32532141)
The students have to develop software using the framework, not just use the final program. I always found docker as a dev environment rather painful. Maybe I have to revisit.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:35PM (#32545599)
> I always found docker as a dev environment rather painful.

I’ve found the following to work quite well:

Have a docker compose file setup that runs a container with all the necessary build tools and anything else.

Map home directories, /opt and anything else you want to persist as named volumes.

Run docker compose up -d

Use the remote development extension of vscode to connect to the container and develop almost as if it was local.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by davrosthedalek on Monday August 22, 2022 @03:16AM (#32548317)
vscode's remote dev is indeed god-tier. I love vscode.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Monday August 22, 2022 @03:44AM (#32548495)
I’m not a huge fan of vscode (speaking as a c++ dev), but remote dev is a killer feature so I use it over other alternatives.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by MathMonkeyMan on Monday August 22, 2022 @12:16AM (#32547280)
This is a neat idea.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by snoopy_telex on Sunday August 21, 2022 @01:48PM (#32542572)
Maybe https://www.vagrantup.com would be a better solution then vanilla docker
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by geysersam on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:42AM (#32529756)
Used Ubuntu for almost a decade now. Wouldn't call myself a tinkerer with respect to the OS, the defaults are totally fine. Drivers are rarely an issue ime. Maybe things have become better since last you tried?
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by hot_gril on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:44AM (#32530109)
I installed Ubuntu on my Acer laptop a few years ago. Fans didn't work after waking from sleep, so it'd overheat. Wifi was finicky. I didn't even try Bluetooth. Couldn't run Adobe Flash and thus couldn't watch the World Cup on the only legit website to watch in the US (Fox Sports).

Yeah, "not the OS's fault" etc. But Windows did all of that fine.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by janef0421 on Sunday August 21, 2022 @05:29PM (#32544646)
Windows did all of that fine because the manufacturer made the machine with the intent of running windows and shipped it with drivers for its particular hardware. A System76 machine would be the same with linux, apart from the flash thing, so you aren't really saying anything meaningful about any operating system.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by hot_gril on Thursday August 25, 2022 @01:37PM (#32597146)
I'm saying it's painful for the user, who doesn't care about these details.

But speaking of laptops made for Linux, a lot of modern Lenovo Thinkpads have unpatched issues with Bluetooth audio, and my coworkers are constantly fighting with that. So even us techies have an easier time with Macs.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by sentrms on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:10AM (#32530250)
Ubuntu / Linux definitely has come a long way. I used to compile kernels, write X11 config files, now it just works. Timed perfectly with my lack of time / willingness to tinker for hours to get stuff working.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by ricardobayes on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:53AM (#32530169)
I somehow found bluetooth and sounds in general to be the achilles heel of Ubuntu. Both installations I have/had in my family either sound stopped overnight or bluetooth didn't work anymore after an update.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday August 21, 2022 @02:45PM (#32543180)
Linux has had an arguably FAR superior UX to Windows since Vista.

Mac and Windows both have some great "power user" features - but I think for the average person, Ubuntu is far superior for usability.

I remember 10 years ago when my friends would use my Linux laptop and expect it to be impossible and couldn't believe how easy it was to use and figure out.

Maybe for a few rare laptops that have perfect driver support, it's on par. But this isn't a common case.

The main problem with Linux is for laptops - the power management is simply not in the same league as MacOS.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by hot_gril on Thursday August 25, 2022 @01:38PM (#32597169)
> Linux has had an arguably FAR superior UX to Windows since Vista.

Has had like 20 different maybe-superior UXes, often 2-3 for a single distro... which in a way is worse than one bad one that you get to know well. Like, I logged into my Linux machine at work one day, and the entire UI was suddenly different, ???

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by bsder on Sunday August 21, 2022 @06:47PM (#32545273)
I finally dumped Mac completely for Ubuntu LTS on a Lenovo X1 Carbon about 12 months ago. My experience is that I'm now tinkering with things less on Linux than I used to on macOS/OS X.

I have an external Thundebolt dock that actually works. I'm not on the Xcode treadmill forcing me to update an OS because Apple dropped support. Updates are on my schedule instead of Apple's. I can use an actual standard 3D API (Vulkan) rather than the undocumented pile of crap that is Metal. My Bluetooth speakers are more reliable than they were on macOS. I can set my monitor resolutions without buying a dumbass Mac App. My printing system never gets confused forcing me to reinstall all my printers. I can go on and on.

Is it flawless? No. About once a week, my cursor response goes to absolute shit for about 90 seconds for no obvious reason. Occasionally, I hit one of the Wayland corner cases. Lots of software still doesn't run on Linux--so I have to keep a Windows box floating around, but I had to do that even with macOS. I've had 2 hangs over the last 12 months.

But, overall, while I can list grievances about my Macs endlessly, I have to actually think hard about what has genuinely pissed me off about Ubuntu.

I'm not going to deny anyone's experiences because when that's done to me I just get pissed off. In addition, I made a point to buy somewhat more expensive hardware that was a decent match to Ubuntu (better quality laptop, i5 for better thermal performance, max RAM and SSD). I'm just providing a counterpoint that for some of us Linux is a better environment than Windows or macOS.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by phasersout on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:24AM (#32529660)
I run PopOS on a Thinkbook and overall the experience is more hassle free than my Windows-System these days.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by mrtedbear on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:27AM (#32530670)
I'm a Ubuntu user but always install the PopOS shell for the wonderful tiling window manager.

It's such a convenient way to manage the desktop space and credit to System76 for making it available to other Gnome-based distros.

https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by christophilus on Sunday August 21, 2022 @02:53PM (#32543251)
> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

For what it’s worth, this is only true if you buy a device with poor Linux support which is kind of like buying a hackintosh and complaining about how much tinkering OSX requires. If you buy a good Linux box and put Fedora or PopOS on there, I think you’ll be productive instantly.

My biased 2 cents.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by LtWorf on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:24AM (#32529663)
> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

Nah it works completely fine. There is no photoshop, yes, but stuff does work.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:50AM (#32529821)
Except for power management, screen sharing under Wayland and certain Bluetooth headsets
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by teddyh on Sunday August 21, 2022 @12:32PM (#32541772)
Headset does not work on Linux: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from Linux!”

Headset does not work on Windows: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from these headphones!”

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Sunday August 21, 2022 @07:25PM (#32545538)
I’m actually trying to convince my current employer to let us use Linux laptops instead of windows ones (with Linux vms for all development).

My comment was in reply to someone saying Linux just works without needing to tinker, and as much as I’d prefer to be using a Linux based laptop, those are 3 things I have spent countless hours tinkering with to try and get working without success.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by teddyh on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:19PM (#32557422)
I assume that there is reasonable PC laptops out there which also have problems with “power management, screen sharing […] and certain Bluetooth headsets” …on Windows. If you were to encounter such a laptop, would you also consider Windows to “not work” with these three things?

If not, then why do you do that for Linux?

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Monday August 22, 2022 @07:22PM (#32558591)
> If you were to encounter such a laptop

I don’t encounter such laptops except when they run Linux.

Other OSes have their own litany of issues, however the topic under discussion was how well Linux just worked without tinkering, and these things are still pain points for Linux that I don’t encounter on other platforms.

This is not to imply that Linux is bad out that you shouldn’t use it, just that it is still not tinker free.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by teddyh on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @04:32AM (#32576469)
> Other OSes have their own litany of issues, however the topic under discussion was how well Linux just worked without tinkering, and these things are still pain points for Linux that I don’t encounter on other platforms.

My point is that yes you do. You just immediately attribute the problem to the other parts, not to Windows. Myriads of Windows users everywhere have all sorts of problems with all sorts of hardware, and everyone just accepts it as some sort of problem that they’re having. But a problem where Linux is involved somewhere? Then it’s suddenly Linux which is prone to problems.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:48AM (#32659166)
> My point is that yes you do

No I don't.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by caskstrength on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:18AM (#32529980)
I get battery life similar to Windows on my X1. I regularly share my screen on work-related meeting and it works for me without any issues on Gnome with Wayland.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by imron on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:28AM (#32530361)
I no longer use a Linux laptop for work but as recently as a year ago, plugging an external monitor/keyboard in to my X14 wouldn’t wake it up (required manually opening and closing the lid), I could use the headphones on AirPods but not the mic, and screen sharing on teams (and a bunch of other video conferencing software) would only work on X11 and not Wayland.

This was running the latest Ubuntu at the time (20, and then 21).

Perhaps things have changed in the last year?

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by avian on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:49AM (#32530756)
> I could use the headphones on AirPods but not the mic

This is still the case. I was just trying to get this to work. You can't use the mic on a Bluetooth headset. There's supposedly a workaround that requires you to install and run a smartphone software stack on your laptop, but I could never get it to work.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by Macha on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:59AM (#32530793)
> I no longer use a Linux laptop for work but as recently as a year ago, plugging an external monitor/keyboard in to my X14 wouldn’t wake it up (required manually opening and closing the lid)

Is this supposed to work on Mac? Does it need configuring? Is it something I need to enable? I always had to remove and reinsert the power cord to wake a sleeping docked Macbook.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by Macha on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:57AM (#32530786)
My WH-1000XM4 has Mac os sometimes forget it has an audio device when the Mac wakes from sleep, resulting in a need to manually disconnect and reconnect from the Bluetooth menu.

My Samson G-Track Pro USB microphone does not get recognised on M1 Macs. It worked fine on a previous Intel Mac.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by christophilus on Sunday August 21, 2022 @02:56PM (#32543276)
The only one of those I have a problem with is screen sharing from Chromium-based browsers. Works fine from Firefox.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by lbwtaylor on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:11AM (#32529595)
Apple constantly spams you with popup ads for their cloud services, far worse IMHO than any start menu nonsense. To each their own.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by tmikaeld on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:20AM (#32529644)
Where? I have several Macs in my office, I might have seen a question on upgrade, but that's it. In Safari?
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by runjake on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:24AM (#32532696)
Not the commenter but macOS regularly spams people with:

- Ads to try Apple Music free for a month.

- Ads to try News+

- Ads to try Fitness+

- Try Safari (if it’s not your default browser)

- Try/log into iCloud if you’re not logged into iCloud.

- Try the latest macOS release if you aren’t on it.

As an aside, you do not want to even log into the Mac App Store with a personal account on a work computer.

Logging into just the Mac App Store effectively logs you into your iCloud on that machine and sensitive personal data is then strewn across various files under ~/Library. The iCloud sysprefs will claim you are not logged into iCloud but ~/Library will show you the truth.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by thies226j on Monday August 22, 2022 @03:32AM (#32548422)
I am a macOS user and have never seen a popup or ads for News+, fitness+ or Apple Music.

In addition to that, what personal data are you talking about in your last paragraph?

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by miked85 on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:17AM (#32530300)
I haven't ever seen a single popup ad for Apple services - what are you referring to?
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by christophilus on Sunday August 21, 2022 @02:58PM (#32543296)
I see them on iOS any time I go to settings or take a photo or open Apple Music. You might not consider them to be ads, though. “Your iCloud storage is full…” and so on.

Not sure if OSX is like that, though, as I haven’t used it much in the last few years.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by vips7L on Sunday August 21, 2022 @03:16PM (#32543448)
And I’ve never seen ads in my windows pro install… so ymmv.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by LinearEntropy on Saturday August 20, 2022 @06:53AM (#32531001)
Which popups are these? The only one I ever received was when I hit the limit on my iCloud account. Certainly not anywhere as bad as all the adverts in teh start menu on my Windows work machine.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by chongli on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:24AM (#32529664)
I’m paying like $4/mo for iCloud storage. All my files are backed up there. I don’t get any ads.

Is there an option like that on Windows?

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by Lio on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:46AM (#32529792)
The point is not that paying $4 a month rent isn’t useful to some people. It’s that another group of people want to own a computer that doesn’t beg for rent at all.

The old macOS provided that the new Mac, not so much.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by gsinclair on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:42AM (#32530092)
The old macOS didn’t provide any cloud storage option, and the new one does, for a fee. That seems like progress, not begging for rent or a reason to be nostalgic.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by Lio on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:07AM (#32530232)
Fair enough but if I decline once why does it need to keep nagging me to upgrade?

Likewise, if I just want to play music, and I decline the free introductory offer of an Apple Music subscription, why does it keep offering?

Like newsletter popups, having something get between me and what I want to do is annoying.

It’s the creeping “Not right now”, “Maybe later”, “We’ll in your face again after a random timer” bullshit I hate.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by chongli on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:42AM (#32530442)
I agree with you in principle. I just take exception to the claim that this is somehow worse than Windows where you have pervasive 3rd party ads (including telemetry) and no way to opt out.

Frankly, I am rather pessimistic with the industry as a whole. Problems never seem to stay solved. There is constant churn, constant disruption of workflow and UI patterns. Constant change for its own sake and no reflection on what is really important.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by dmz73 on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:36AM (#32549267)
I haven't seen an ad in in Windows system so far. Onedrive is MS cloud and backs up your files for free. Mac has full on telemetry where it logs every program you use every time you use it amd may stop you from using it. Apple is building the biggest add network in the world and it needs captive audience for it, Mac will be small fish there but it will be locked inand down just like the iPhone or ipad.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by Lio on Saturday August 20, 2022 @04:58AM (#32530531)
Yeah I think that’s my take on it all too.

Windows is… not for me either.

It seems like after a certain level of complexity product design is a very difficult thing to do.

My guess is that few people have the skill to really get product refinement just right over the long term. So you end up with either stagnation, where people are afraid to improve things or random unnecessary changes that make stuff worse.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by hammyhavoc on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:39AM (#32529742)
Sounds like the days of a lack of ads on Apple products is changing: https://www.macworld.com/article/831218/ads-stocks-news-app-...
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by dmz73 on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:24AM (#32549182)
OneDrive and it's free. Never seen an ad in Windows system itself. Switch to Windows and Save! :)
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by ricardobayes on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:54AM (#32530174)
I like to save that 48 dollars per year and just use the free tier of google drive.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by faeriechangling on Monday August 22, 2022 @02:32AM (#32548049)
I've rarely found myself getting all that tied up in solving driver issues in linux especially after the first week of ownership of a new machine. Fighting annoying in OS ads, again, really a first week of ownership sort of thing.

Linux I find what's painful about it is that some things will always be kind of broken, for me it was bluetooth, I used bluetooth all the time, it did work, but I had to fight it into submission fucking daily. Windows? My goto example of what a shitshow windows is by far is the incoherent settings menus, and generally whereas Android and iOS and MacOS and Linux and all the OSes people actually use follow a lot of similar conventions Microsoft is SUPER SPECIAL and of course must do everything in their own unique way.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by hot_gril on Thursday August 25, 2022 @01:42PM (#32597237)
The Windows Control Panel is an abomination. Nothing is consistent in there. Even parts of the UI are clearly taken straight from Win2000.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by aprdm on Monday August 22, 2022 @12:27AM (#32547320)
On both of my last companies linux was the default desktop and not many issues arises from it .
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by pjmlp on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:35AM (#32529722)
Not the pro versions, they can be removed, and it still entails 80% of the desktop market worldwide.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by trenchgun on Saturday August 20, 2022 @06:54AM (#32531004)
> Desktop Linux GUI is still painful and really only suitable for those who love to tinker.

KDE is pretty nice.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by shortlived on Sunday August 21, 2022 @01:37PM (#32542442)
Windows + your favorite Linux distro thanks to WSL. It’s the perfect combo.
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by arvinsim on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:12AM (#32529606)
Rumor has it that Mac will soon have ads on the AppStore
Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by lapcat on Saturday August 20, 2022 @10:02AM (#32532127)
There's no such rumor.

I'm sure that Apple would put ads in the Mac App Store if it were profitable for Apple. But it's likely not a big enough market to be worth it.

Re:The erosion of the Mac experience by justin66 on Sunday August 21, 2022 @01:00PM (#32542086)
> There's no such rumor.

Well, there is now.