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Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by briandoll on Thursday June 30, 2022 @09:37PM (#31941094)
In the US, the dairy industry tried this and thankfully lost (in California): The Animal Legal Defense Fund represented Miyoko’s Kitchen in its challenge of unconstitutional restrictions placed on plant-based dairy products’ marketing and labeling

Miyoko makes vegan cheese and brought the California Department of Food and Agriculture to court to challenge their ban on the term "cheese" to represent her products. She won.

https://aldf.org/article/miyokos-victorious-in-first-amendme...

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by xdennis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @09:50PM (#31941212)
That would be completely fair, assuming the reverse is true as well. That is, being able to sell real cheese as "vegan cheese" to trick vegans into eating it.

I was tricked into buying vegan sausages. They don't deserve protection either.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by jefftk on Thursday June 30, 2022 @09:59PM (#31941291)
The ruling was that they could call it things like "vegan cheese", not an unqualified "cheese".
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by xdennis on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:08PM (#31941355)
So then we should be able to use the term "real vegan cheese", but not an unqualified "vegan cheese".
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by kennywinker on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:49PM (#31941677)
I think “real” is a bit of a problem there because if vegan cheese is real it means it’s really vegan. I think the analog you’re looking for would be “fake vegan cheese”, or to make it less double-negativey we could just say “dairy cheese” which would be a perfectly understandable modifier on cheese just like how “vegan cheese” is a perfectly understandable modifier.

If vegan cheese is a problem i’d like to hear your take on “electric car”

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by burnished on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:01AM (#31942187)
'Car' really just refers to the comparment right? The ICE is merely implied :)
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by kennywinker on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:25AM (#31942352)
Carmpartment? Indeed
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by burnished on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:32AM (#31942390)
No no no, thats when you live in your self driving car.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by cheese_goddess on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:45PM (#31950005)
> I think “real” is a bit of a problem there because if vegan cheese is real it means it’s really vegan.

"Real vegan cheese" should not be a problem as long as you're selling a real product. The problems would begin if you were selling real cheese as "Really vegan cheese".

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by kennywinker on Friday July 01, 2022 @03:38PM (#31951641)
I don’t think the phrase “real vegan cheese” is linguistically clear in any way. Is the “real” about the “vegan” part, the “cheese” part, or the “vegan cheese” part? I.e. “real dog food” has nothing to do with the realness of the dogs, it’s about the “food”. But then in the sentence “real prada bag” the “real” is about the “prada” portion not about the “bag” portion. “Real” can modify either the modifier or the noun.

“Really” makes the sentence more clear, because it adds emphasis to the “vegan” modifier on “cheese” - it wouldn’t apply to the “cheese” part directly. I.e. in the sentence “really big cheese” the “really” is clearly adding emphasis to the “big”.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by saalweachter on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:00PM (#31941776)
"better than vegan cheese" should walk the line of accuracy, deception, and marketing.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by HKH2 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:59PM (#31942175)
I Can Believe It's Not Vegan Cheese!
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by qbrass on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:52AM (#31942523)
I Can't Believe It's Not 'I Can Believe It's Not Vegan Cheese!'!
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by Ekaros on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:49AM (#31942826)
Would that be actually horrible non-vegan cheese? Finally having honesty in marketing?
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by k8si on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:20PM (#31941454)
I imagine this was probably user error on your part. The vegan cheese is usually on the other end of the grocery store from the real cheese, and also usually says 'vegan' prominently, and also there are only like 2-3 brands that make vegan cheese (Miyoko, Daiya, maybe 1 other?). And vegans still usually have to read the ingredients to make sure. Non-vegans could probably do the same if it were that important.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by SllX on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:05PM (#31941806)
Ah, the “you’re holding it wrong” argument re-contextualized as “you’re just shopping wrong”.

Unfortunately that is not always the case. I don’t know about the parent but I accidentally bought a “Chick’n Burrito” that was right next to the meat burritos. It did not taste like chicken.

Could it have been avoided had I been more careful? Sure! On the other hand vegan dishes taste better than fake meat dishes and I really don’t appreciate the intentionally misleading labeling riding on the good PR of “chicken” and “butter” to try to sell their fakes. Missing a character swap or substitution is not a difficult thing for literate people who are also very tired at the end of the day.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by k8si on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:53AM (#31942527)
Again, vegans almost always have to read the ingredients/labels, on every processed food product they plan to consume. The little 'vegan' icon on the back is new and not consistently used. Choosing a plant based lifestyle is A LOT more burdensome than not doing that. I know because I've switched back and forth many times and am married to a vegan. Whey, casein, random cream, honey, they're in everything.

Even so: reading ingredients is honestly not that hard.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by todorus on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:37PM (#31950811)
Again: "you're holding it wrong".

Just because a plant based lifestyle is burdensome, doesn't mean people think it should be. And by that reasoning neither should any other diet. So I don't get why the projection of your experience onto the experience of others is so necessary

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by Klonoar on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:10PM (#31941849)
...no, in this case you are absolutely shopping wrong. Pay attention to the labels.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by SllX on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:12PM (#31941864)
Oh believe me, I do especially after that, but that does not justify misleading labeling practices. It’s absolutely intended to be deceptive and ride on the good PR of other products.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by Klonoar on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:25PM (#31941957)
That's not misleading labeling, and the naming is intended to explain what it's attempting to mimic. Many consumers appreciate that and use it as a signal when shopping.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by cardiffspaceman on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:43PM (#31949101)
If it says, "milk" or "cheese" or "beef" I absolutely should not have to read the label. These things were made by farmers thousands of years ago, and have fairly simple "recipes".

If you want to sell some vegetables or vegetable oil to vegans, I would have thought that vegans would go for it without the unappetizing association with dead, smelly, greasy animal carcasses.

Why does vegan food have to resemble the things that vegans avoid?

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by Klonoar on Friday July 01, 2022 @03:22PM (#31951428)
Even if something is milk, cheese, or beef, do you just... pick it up without looking at what the product is, or where it came from or is sourced from? Read the labels. It is not hard. You exist in a world with other humans who use words across a range of things and it's on you to know what you're buying.

>Why does vegan food have to resemble the things that vegans avoid?

First off: it's not just vegans who buy or are interested in this stuff. People can find it beneficial from a sustainability point of view.

Second, people like the originals! We have rich culinary history with recipes and tastes that people don't necessarily want to give up, but may want a more sustainable/cruelty free/[insert your reason here] alternative.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by mike00632 on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:16PM (#31954282)
If you're so indiscriminate as a shopper then what does it matter if you eat vegan alternatives? They're better for you, better for the planet and often taste better.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by cheese_goddess on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:48PM (#31950054)
The standard explanation is that those are aimed at ordinary consumers who wish to reduce their meat consumption but can't unless they taste something that tastes like meat (resp. dairy).
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by mike00632 on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:15PM (#31954271)
"chicken" and "butter" have good PR?

The whole point of these lawsuits is to damage vegan alternatives which are growing in popularity.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by SllX on Sunday July 03, 2022 @06:21PM (#31971505)
Of course butter and chicken have good PR: they’re delicious, nutritious and widely popular. They’re so pervasive in fact that you hardly notice their presence and if you don’t know what someone likes, chances are butter and chicken are a good starting point.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by kelnos on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:04PM (#31941800)
Ah yes, when something is confusing, blame the user. Classic.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by iforgotpassword on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:43AM (#31943170)
I've never seen anything more confusing then the two words "vegan cheese". Even after consulting with a dozen scientists I couldn't figure out what it's supposed to mean. So I bought it and surprisingly enough, I didn't end up with cheese made from milk as expected, but with cheese that was actually vegan! Could it be me? No, obviously it's somebody else's fault. Like it always is. It's never me.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by ouid on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:18AM (#31946727)
you're assuming what you want to without reading the comments carefully. The "user" was tricked into buying vegan sausages. No one said that they were called vegan sausages.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by iforgotpassword on Saturday July 02, 2022 @02:57AM (#31956848)
It doesn't matter whether we talk about cheese or sausages.

The main point is that when you make laws that make it illegal to call something "vegan cheese" or "vegan steak", you are even more likely to be confronted with those confusing and misleading labels. If anything, the law should be the other way round, require a label that plain and simply says "vegan $product" prominently.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by stjohnswarts on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:23AM (#31943781)
Why let yourself be a victim though? Just admit you fucked up and don't buy it again. Read the label.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by acoard on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:36AM (#31946954)
> The vegan cheese is usually on the other end of the grocery store from the real cheese,

Usually, but not always. I’ve seen them collocated more frequently of late and almost made the same mistake before comparing price. The text was so small I would not have noticed without price setting me off. It clearly can be deceptively packaged and I would imagine many marketing departments will try if they think it’ll make them money.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by autarch on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:47PM (#31942108)
> there are only like 2-3 brands that make vegan cheese (Miyoko, Daiya, maybe 1 other?)

Off the top of my head:

Miyoko's, Daiya, Kite Hill, Violife, Forager, Field Roast (Chao), Nuts for Cheese, Dr. Cow, Vtopian, Parmela Creamery

And with a bit of googling:

Moocho (from Tofurky), GoVeggie!, Follow Your Heart (how'd I forget them?), Treeline, So Delicious, Koko Dairy Free, Vitalite, Sheese (hard to find in the US, I think), New Roots, Tofutti (ick), Kinda Co., Cheeze & Thank You, Darë, Catalyst Creamery, Moo No More, RIND, SriMu, Virgin Cheese, Reina Royal Vegan Cuisine

Ok, you get the point.

To be fair, a number of the brands in the second list are niche artisanal products you can only get either directly from the vendor, at niche shops like a vegan cheese shop, or online from a place like Vegan Essentials.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by NicoJuicy on Saturday July 02, 2022 @06:03PM (#31962865)
Cheese to me is a processed good of milk.

Vegan cheese is not, it shouldn't use cheese in it.

Eg. Gluten free cheese would be processed cheese of milk with a lot extracted out of it. But it would still originate from milk.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by ouid on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:09AM (#31946628)
>The vegan cheese is usually on the other end of the grocery store from the real cheese.

How on earth do you think this is either true or a defense?

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by burnished on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:40PM (#31942061)
I get you're being outraged to be funny, but in seriousness no you aren't allowed to trick people into eating something they do not want to. Its important to have standards about clear communication on this, its easy enough to cause harm through accident or honest mistake let alone intentional malice.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by autarch on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:38PM (#31942047)
Yes, this is a great business idea! Would you like to fund my "vegan cheese from dairy" company? I'll give you a 10% stake for $10M USD.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by pcthrowaway on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:31AM (#31945507)
Please, no. Vegans already have to scan all the ingredients for nearly everything they buy with every purchase (yes, there are products labelled plant based that have animal products, "soy cheese" with caseine, etc.)

Accidentally buying a "sausage" that wasn't to your taste could have happened even if it was animal product based. If the status quo changes so that non-vegans need to start reading ingredients sometimes, or they might end up buying food that isn't enjoyable to them, that's a positive in my mind. People should be more conscious about "how the sausage is made" so to speak.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by myvoiceismypass on Friday July 01, 2022 @09:31AM (#31946079)
Curious which brand of vegan sausage you got tricked into buying.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by pvaldes on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:30AM (#31944905)
Something tagged "VEGAN Cheese" in big characters with "This cheese is from our beloved cow Vega, not actually ugly soy stuff but is good for you, and remind that you started this war, not us" in tiny characters at the foot would receive a priceless publicity and lots of love.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by wumpus on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:36PM (#31942032)
> I was tricked into buying vegan sausages.

I hope you weren't ill for too long.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:51AM (#31945106)
> I was tricked into buying vegan sausages.

I don't even know how that is possible unless one is extremely unattentive. In my experience, vegan and vegetarian substitute products are universally located in the specialty section of the grocer and nearly universally advertise their plant-based status prominently.

These products cost more than the real thing, so why try to fool anyone into thinking they're real meat? The market that is willing to pay more will do so precisely because they aren't real meat so that's what you want to advertise.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by pcthrowaway on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:33AM (#31945521)
To be fair, "Beyond" products (Beyond burgers, beyond sausage) require grocery stores that carry them to place them in the meat section (though the store may also place them with the vegan meats).

The idea is that people will get introduced to "close-tasting" plant-based meat alternatives, and it seems to have worked out pretty well for them, since they've been incredibly successful.

It's been 18 years since I've eaten real meat, so I'm perhaps not the best judge, but they seem very similar to me.

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:57AM (#31945737)
As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm pretty sure they don't 'require' that. All the grocery stores near me that have Beyond keep it in the meat substitute section and don't have it in the meat section at all.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by ouid on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:21AM (#31946776)
right, so the objective is to trick people.
Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by cheese_goddess on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:55PM (#31950148)
For example:

https://youtu.be/8uN8PUU5U2Q?t=1463

(Shows Beyond Burger placed next to meat burgers in a French supermarket).

Re:France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe veget... by cheese_goddess on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:40PM (#31949946)
Why is this fortunate? Miyioko makes nut paste and calls it "cheese". It's fortunate that she can keep selling her product under false assumptions?

To be clear, the false assumptions are that her product is cheese, when it's not, and that it tastes, smells or feels like cheese, when it doesn't.