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Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @03:50AM (#31444514)
,,The crypto slump has been brutal’’

I’ve been holding Bitcoin since 2013, and this 50-60% retracement from the all time high was nothing compared to what I (and other people) were living through. I advise people to look at past volatility of Bitcoin before making an investment decision.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by ZeroGravitas on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:15AM (#31444676)
Do you have a strategy of selling on the peaks (possibly even buying on the lows with some of the proceeds) to eventually exit while ahead or are you just holding because you have a strong belief that it can only rise in future and it's not worth following the day to day drama (as many do with stocks)?

Either way, you personally benefit from belief in Bitcoin and crypto being generally positive, which has implications for your objectivity even if well meaning.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:21AM (#31444723)
If there would be a huge peak, like $200k, I would sell, but generally I don’t believe I can compete with the hedge funds trading Bitcoin, so it’s the second. The only exception was the Bitcoin Cash hard fork, that I strongly opposed as it was being pushed by companies so aggressively even though there was no rough consensus reached, while segregated witness fork contained several critical bug fixes for Bitcoin. I sold all my Bitcoin Cash instantly for about 0.13 BCH/BTC exchange rate.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by arethuza on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:10AM (#31444992)
Out of interest, do you set explicit targets like "if it gets to X I will sell"?

Just wondering as I'd have thought a "peak" is only evident in retrospect?

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by chii on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:23AM (#31445085)
The way i've been looking at it is thru the lens of allocation ratios. You never have one asset with a high allocation (compared to another). You also have to decide ahead of time (when you start investing) what an appropriate allocation ratio is between the different assets (e.g., you might have 10% bonds, 80% stocks and 10% crypto).

Then, one or twice a year, you an reallocate assets as they drift away from the ratio. Doing it too often is detrimental, so my guess is once a year is "enough", and may be keep an eye on any fluctuations and if it grows bigger than some threshold, you do a second rebalance.

Let's say in 2021, crypto had a huge bull run, and went from just being 10% of your allocation to something close to 20%. It makes a lot of sense then, to sell the 10%, and rebalance back into the other assets you hold.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by fleddr on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:48AM (#31446670)
The intelligent strategy is to do progressive selling on the way up rather than try and predict the absolute top, which nobody realistically can do.

Progressive selling on the way up is emotionally very hard to do, as it feels like you're losing money whilst actually being in profit. It's tempting to fully ride the top. Don't.

Next, when the inevitable crash comes, you're uniquely positioned to buy in heavily as you have the dry powder to do so. This too is emotionally hard as everybody is fearful, "blood in the streets". Here too you can progressively buy in rather than try and predict the bottom.

This strategy only works for things that bounce back, which is not true for almost every altcoin or shitcoin.

You can also take permanent profits. Once I made my first significant profit, I took out my initial investment so that effectively I'm in crypto only with profits. I could lose it all and whilst that wouldn't make me happy, it wouldn't truly affect me either.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:31AM (#31445144)
I’m extremely bad at trading, but it didn’t stop me from achieving amazing returns. Just an example last year I had a target of $150k when it was at $50k, and also (like most people) I got a BTC based loan (it made sense for tax purposes as well). The problem was that everybody was doing it, and professional traders probably used those loans to short the market and trigger margin calls. I had multiple margin calls as well, but I was able to add extra collateral. At the same time I spoke with a person who lost all his money because he bought BTC/ETH from his loan.

At the end the only experience I got is that I’m still a bad trader, and I won’t do it :)

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by rvz on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:53AM (#31445663)
That is only if you bought Bitcoin when it was <$10K and as low as $5K or 6K in March 2020 which I hope you got in at the time and not at $20K, $30K or $40K.

> Just an example last year I had a target of $150k when it was at $50k, and also (like most people) I got a BTC based loan (it made sense for tax purposes as well).

That doesn't sound like a good idea in the middle of a bull run and everyone being in profit on Bitcoin when it was at $50K last year or even $69K. I have a different strategy - taking profits and taking advantage of the hype.

It's better to get in when the market crashes so that you can buy it significantly lower, (Like say <$10K) and sell some of it during the height of the euphoria, than it is to enter when everything is going up and end up bag-holding and waiting months, or years in an unrealised loss for it to go back up again.

Hence being against anyone jumping in at >$60K last year [0] and warning another person about DOGE going all the way up and bag-holding it at $0.6; thinking that it will go to $1 by August. [0]

Anyways, Good luck with your strategy.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27206314

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27046019

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by lupire on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:06AM (#31446199)
You can't buy the dip during a peak. PP got a loan at 50 which is a bearish trade, halfway to shorting.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by rvz on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:54AM (#31446732)
> You can't buy the dip during a peak.

The people who bought in at around >$40K and higher just did that and are now bag-holding in drawdown.

> PP got a loan at 50 which is a bearish trade, halfway to shorting.

Well no wonder they received multiple margin calls when the smart traders were taking profits or shorting from >$60K with him ending up on the wrong side of the trade or entering at higher prices and holding into unrealised losses.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by thebean11 on Friday May 20, 2022 @10:09AM (#31447616)
It's completely different, OP still owned the BTC, it was just collateral to a loan. The loan currency was presumably USD, so they were short USD but still long BTC.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by eternalban on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:54AM (#31445292)
r/trader/gambler
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by lupire on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:02AM (#31446166)
Thars like saying r/poker player/gambler

Financial instrument trading is always gambling. Imvesting is what it's not.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by __s on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:13AM (#31446266)
I bought in 2017 & sold the peak. My strategy was that in 2017 I back of the enveloped a fair price of 30k CAD, so when I checked in awhile later it was 69k CAD I knew things were getting stupid & had to sell for the memes

I also sold most my investments in January because I wanted to buy a house. Moral of the story: be a lucky bastard like me

I believe crypto doesn't need to "go to the moon" to succeed. If bitcoin hit a stable price of 1k it still works. If I were to make another play in the crypto space I'd probably do something stupid like buy 32 eth & stake it in eth 2.0

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by cableshaft on Friday May 20, 2022 @02:27PM (#31450891)
Coinbase supports staking ETH into ETH 2.0 without needing 32 ETH to do so. You can put pretty much as little as you want in. Yield is 3.68% right now. You can see what you're earning but you won't be able to move it until the ETH merge.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by __s on Friday May 20, 2022 @02:38PM (#31451016)
https://www.stakingrewards.com/earn/ethereum-2-0

Or 4.75% running it yourself, & figuring out how to run a validator seems more fun than handing coinbase your funds. I strongly disagree with people having their crypto held by third parties

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by cableshaft on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:18PM (#31452041)
If you feel like purchasing the 32 ETH to run a validator and/or set things up with a staking pool, that's great, have fun. I personally don't have that much, and I was also hesitant to put it into a staking pool since I couldn't just unstake it whenever, and I trust Coinbase a bit more than a staking pool. I have most of my crypto in non-custodial wallets myself.

Was just mentioning it in case you (or someone else on HN) weren't aware it was an option, but clearly you are.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by scotty79 on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:41AM (#31446015)
Rule of thumb might be that it's best to sell some around one year after halving. So the next sell window is around 2025.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by BrissyCoder on Friday May 20, 2022 @03:58AM (#31444557)
People have such short memories... Was 2018 really that long ago... Even back then there was a tonne of MSM coverage.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by lostcohort on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:53AM (#31445290)
When was long term memory ever a thing for people. People have completely forgotten about invading an entire country finding no WMDs and the recent Afghanistan debacle.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by lupire on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:07AM (#31446202)
The guy who did that just remembered and Freudian slip told everyone in a speech.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by pibechorro on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:50AM (#31445643)
You must be against democracy and freedom. Dont you see weapon sales and money laundering is a good thing? So what if a few million people die..
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by danuker on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:04AM (#31444601)
Indeed, Bitcoin spends quite a lot of time at say 40% dropdown. And an 80% crash is typical.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by bottled_poe on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:58AM (#31444917)
So, past trends are the basis of this advice? Not trying to be snarky, just genuinely interested in why we would expect it to climb again.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by seertaak on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:14AM (#31445022)
Here's what Goldman told me in their newsletter:

The meltdown in cryptocurrencies is raising alarm about the future of digital assets — or is it?

Fears over soaring prices and slowing economic growth have sent investors fleeing from risk assets, notably cryptocurrencies. In the latest Exchanges at Goldman Sachs, Mathew McDermott, global head of digital assets at Goldman Sachs, explains the drivers, evolution and the outlook for crypto assets and the broader digital assets ecosystem.

Recent volatility underscores that crypto assets are still an emerging asset class with a large number of retail participants, McDermott explains to Exchanges host Allison Nathan of Goldman Sachs Research. “The move so far has been correlated to the broader macro market moves,” notes McDermott, who points out that nearly every asset class with discounted cash flows has been hard hit by inflationary pressures.

Blockchain, crypto and digital currencies are gaining broader acceptance among investors, companies and institutions. “Maturity across both the market participants and the infrastructure has given not only confidence to many different institutional sectors, but also has enabled many more traditional traders to really look forward in how they trade this marketplace because of this maturity in the product suite,” McDermott says.

Venture capital investments in digital assets are surging. While valuations are pretty high, there continues to be “high levels of interest because people continue to see exponential growth opportunities and are keen to deploy that capital,” says McDermott. “I think valuations have got a little out of kilter, so perhaps we'll see some more sensible valuations in terms of investment opportunities, too.”

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by markburns on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:17AM (#31445039)
The thinking behind it is based on the halving of rewards and the stock to flow model. https://bitblogger.org/demystifying-bitcoins-remarkably-accu...

If you follow that reason then it's rational that there are crashes after peaks (cashing out), and it's still rational that it will keep rising to a point that it reaches its true value (whatever that is).

The peaks and troughs will flatten out as that happens.

Could well all be wrong. But so far that seems to be the pattern.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by jfk13 on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:13AM (#31445804)
> it's still rational that it will keep rising to a point that it reaches its true value (whatever that is)

Don't ignore the possibility that its "true value" is (or becomes) zero.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by jokethrowaway on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:57AM (#31445309)
There are still plenty of people who enjoy betting providing a bottom layer and whales are happy to buy low and sell high, so they have an incentive to ride trends. There is a lot of pumping going on in private telegram chats at multiple levels of wealth.

I guess it will crash to zero when governments start rolling out their own and declaring illegal all the other cryptocurrencies.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by vmception on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:11AM (#31444997)
Past performance is indicative of future results except for the purposes of liability punting, which is a super convenient capability of apocryphal disclaimers
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by oleganza on Friday May 20, 2022 @03:57AM (#31444554)
Also bitcoin != crypto, those are not even subset/superset for the most part.

Bitcoin solves one single problem of "digital cash" with the most robust and boring mechanism (known to mankind so far).

While the "cryptos" aim at satisfying demand for all sorts of p2p apps and moneymaking schemes that can be funded with the digital cash to avoid getting regulated out of existence.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by pavlov on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:09AM (#31444626)
It’s practically impossible to use Bitcoin as digital cash because it’s so slow and expensive. That was the original problem it purported to solve, but it failed miserably at that.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by alangibson on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:40AM (#31444827)
Every time one makes the point that Bitcoin has no real utility, someone says 'Lightning network'. Does anyone know if it's getting any adoption?
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:04AM (#31444955)
At this point it can be used for payments practically everywhere where Bitcoin accepted, but it’s not yet practical for payments over $100 as far as I know, so I still only use the base Bitcoin layer for paying for my travels.

There are new algorithms in late research phase though for much larger payments (like $5000) that are expected to go into production this year. I’m waiting for that before switching to using lightning network.

For people in the US though they can just go into a Walmart or McDonald’s and use it right now.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by beefield on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:26AM (#31445105)
> For people in the US though they can just go into a Walmart or McDonald’s and use it right now.

Am I right to assume that "use" here is in the same sense[1] that you can "use" "dollars" to pay your Big Mac in Paris with your US credit card? I.e. French McDonald's does not set the price in dollars but euros and does not need to touch dollars with a ten foot pole during the whole process and receives euros in their account?

[1] Which hardly makes any sense to me, to be honest.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:37AM (#31445178)
Why doesn’t it make sense to use your USD based credit card in France? I use both EUR based credit card and my Bitcoin wallet while travelling in Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Panama, and setting up bank accounts in those countries would be infinitely harder.

Regarding hotels and flights, I book it on internet, and I don’t even know which country the travel agencies are located, and I don’t care.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by xiphias2 on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:53AM (#31445289)
(Replying to sibling comment)

> It does not make sense (to me) to say that you use dollars to buy a big mac in Paris. You use euros, which your credit card company conveniently bills from you as dollars.

I see your point. To be more precise I use the MasterCard payment network that uses a combination of Mexican Peso, USD, and EUR in the background to settle with the merchant’s bank periodically in the background (and as I use Revolut based Mastercard, it’s even more complex).

Last month the biggest POS company integrated the lightning network, an international payment network protocol, that uses Bitcoin as its settlement currency and Bitcoin network using Strike, and as the POS company does the settlement with the credit card company, the merchant in practice doesn’t see the difference between accepting credit card payment or lightning payment, as it doesn’t handle any of the two (the POS provider handles them).

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by beefield on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:41AM (#31445203)
It does not make sense (to me) to say that you use dollars to buy a big mac in Paris. You use euros, which your credit card company conveniently bills from you as dollars.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by bogomipz on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:28AM (#31446432)
>"At this point it can be used for payments practically everywhere where Bitcoin accepted, but it’s not yet practical for payments over $100 ..."

What's the significance of that $100 dollar amount with the lightning network?

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by sexangel on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:57AM (#31444912)
not entirely sure, but there appears to be investment from old-school banking, so that could be its on ramp into the classical financial sector.

oh yeah, & this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZoKH-hX_o

but yeah, bitcoin has no utility. you'd just have to wait until The Merge inevitably occurs, or use any of the few PoS cryptocurrencies that are generally better & more capable than bitcoin in every capacity, like Avalanche, Cardano, Fantom, Solana, etc.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by MrMan on Friday May 20, 2022 @08:40AM (#31446573)
Algorand
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by barnabee on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:13AM (#31444669)
So far. If you spend any time in the research community you’ll realise that those problems are very likely to get solved. Lightning alone probably gets us there.

Its volatility and UX, as well as how negatively it is perceived currently (by some people) look like bigger blockers to me.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by technobach on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:04AM (#31444953)
The US adult population is ~250 million. With Bitcoin's ~300k transactions/day, it would take over 2 years for each of them to simply open a LN channel, if we dedicate the entire network just to onboarding.

Lightning will definitely not solve it.

edit: tps -> transactions/day

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by redox99 on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:31AM (#31444774)
What advancements have happened regarding lightning? Last I heard about lightning was around 2017, and 5 years later it doesn't really seem to have gained much adoption.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by saalweachter on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:55AM (#31446110)
Fun fact: the Lightning whitepaper is now older than the Bitcoin whitepaper was when the former was published.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by tsimionescu on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:28AM (#31445119)
Ligthning is an alternative to Bitcoin, not a fix for it. It has a different security model (much much much weaker), it uses entirely different technology, it is essentially centralized. The fact that it uses Bitcoin on the back end is mostly a detail of Lightning.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by adastra22 on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:16AM (#31445414)
There is literally not a single thing true in this comment. I would advise you seriously revaluate where you are getting your (mis)information from.

Lightning is a way of using bitcoin. A way of cooperatively creating bitcoin transactions with multiple parties, in such a way that you can minimize the number of on-chain transactions required. It is bitcoin. It has the same security model as bitcoin. It uses the same technology. It is not in any way centralized (it's a p2p network of payment channel connections, with each operator running their own server).

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by tsimionescu on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:01AM (#31446807)
If you and I have a lightning node and a channel between us, and I send 1 BTC to you, this transaction is NOT secured by the bitcoin network, nor any similar technology. It's basically just a regular ledger that my node and yours keep track of (there's a little more cryptography in place, but not much more).

Even worse, if you saw my transaction, then sent me 1BTC worth of goods, then your node becomes offline and I forcefully close the channel with the original balance, I still have my 1BTC and there is no proof anywhere except your node that the transaction ever happened. So no security, unless both nodes are online.

Finally, unless you open direct channels with everyone you want to transact with, you will rely on a 3rd party node that does have such a channel. In practice, this likely means you will use one of a few major nodes that you trust to stay online and not refuse transactions, so the payments are in effect highly centralized.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by gitfan86 on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:41AM (#31447234)
It is almost like 99.999% of the crypto people don't have computer engineering or computer science degrees or have never built a production system that requires concurrency and fault tolerance over a persistence layer.

A system that validates new entries into a database can either be "very cheap and very fast" or "very fault tolerant and very decentralized". The speed of light in networking and the speed of modern CPUs make this unavoidable.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by imtringued on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:59AM (#31445702)
Lightning is a decentralised PayPal equivalent. Nothing more nothing less.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by rvz on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:24AM (#31444736)
> Lightning alone probably gets us there.

Which that is not Bitcoin and neither is it on-chain.

The parent comment is correct on Bitcoin's failure as a peer-to-peer electronic cash system and all it is instead, is a store of value. This is how you know it has failed in its intended purpose.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by londons_explore on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:54AM (#31444894)
A bitcoin transaction to be processed sometime in the next 24 hours costs $0.15 right now.

That competes pretty well with many bank transfer methods, especially international, which still take many days and cost sometimes $20+.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by pavlov on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:11AM (#31445006)
Cash settles immediately. "Sometime in the next 24 hours" is not digital cash.

Not to mention that Bitcoin is so volatile that the transaction's value in real-world currency may be 10% higher or lower within that 24-hour window, and of course you still need to pay someone to convert it into money if you're not planning on being a crypto holder.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by derriz on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:24AM (#31445088)
That's not really a fair comparison. Bitcoin cannot has very limited use for actual commerce - actually paying for stuff. So you also need to consider the inconvenience, complexity and cost of trading the received BTC for local currency.

I haven't paid anything for international transfers within the SEPA area for years. Depending on the source/destination bank, the transfer can be completed within an hour or so.

Sometimes the solution is simply better banking infrastructure. The banking/payments system in the US is a mess but it doesn't have to be so.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by happymellon on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:31AM (#31445142)
It really doesn't.

Bank transfers do not cost me and happen instantaneous, not 24 hours.

I can also transfer to the US, and they receive it in 24 hours. It still doesn't cost me.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by yakak on Friday May 20, 2022 @04:18AM (#31444700)
bitcoin != crypto

Right, e-banking is crypto.

The field of Speculative Blockchain solutions is a tiny part of crypto. But your examples sound like they either are or anchor to speculative Blockchains so Bitcoin is the leading implementation of infrastructure for your examples.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by CPLX on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:23AM (#31445892)
Or you could look at the absolutely factual statement that since Bitcoin isn’t a productive asset (in fact it’s the opposite it’s expensive to create) then every single dollar that will ever be taken out of Bitcoin is a dollar that some other person put in.

This is not true of normal investments. For example the dollars you get from selling McDonald’s stock 30 years after purchasing it come from people buying hamburgers.

The fact that there’s no such mechanism with Bitcoin demonstrates that it’s not actually an investment at all.

So when you get your profits out who will have given them to you, and what’s their story?

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by fleddr on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:01AM (#31446812)
No, it doesn't demonstrate that at all.

People invest and trade in gold. Which effectively means "gold paper", you don't physically own the gold. In fact, there's 4 times more paper gold than actual gold mined. This type of gold isn't productive. It's not going to be used to make jewelry, it doesn't even exist. It's just a number on screen and a shared belief that it has value.

To a degree you can extend that idea to stock. Sure, you can consider Apple stock to be "productive", as they make desirable products. Explain to me then how stocks are so volatile? It's because the value of the stock is largely believe-driven.

It's all just a bunch of numbers on screen. And they're all investments, regardless of personal opinions on actual value.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by CPLX on Friday May 20, 2022 @10:25AM (#31447828)
Gold is a raw material used in the production of manufactured goods. Which is the literal definition of a commodity. It's not a productive asset either. For the most part investment in gold doesn't produce returns. It's considered something that people hope will stay (roughly) at the same real value because it's scarce.

Apple stock on the other hand takes raw materials like people and chemicals and produces computing devices that are extraordinarily useful. That transformation is the definition of production. The stock value is a NPV calculation of the future earnings of that productive enterprise, which is the interaction of expectations of the enterprise as well as a guess what the cost of capital will be, iterated over many years into infinity.

Just because of the math involved and the iterative nature of the calculation tiny changes in expectations can cause large present value changes, but that isn't really material to the general concept of the enterprise as an ongoing means of producing new, novel, value in the world.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by fleddr on Friday May 20, 2022 @11:07AM (#31448494)
Ultimately, they're all a number on screen that at bare minimum needs to pertain inflation-adjusted value, and preferably grow. Otherwise there's no point to any of it.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by scotty79 on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:44AM (#31446035)
> ... it come from people buying hamburgers

So from money someone else put into this whole hamburger thing and won't get it back?

> For example the dollars you get from selling McDonald’s stock 30 years after purchasing it come from people buying hamburgers.

Some dollars not all, and most likely bot even the most.

So the Bitcoin doesn't have this merchandise based mechanism for sucking the money out of the rest of the economy, so what? Only a part of the cash of the investors comes from it anyways. The rest comes from other investors who gambled wrong. Same as with Bitcoin.

Your argument is just a version of intrinsic value argument tgat crypto bros dismiss with a wide smile.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by CPLX on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:30AM (#31447099)
> So from money someone else put into this whole hamburger thing and won't get it back?

They got a hamburger and ate it. People need food.

Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by scotty79 on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:16PM (#31453184)
They could eat something else. From the point of view of McDonalds investor there's no guarantee money will be flowing in because of sale of hamburgers.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by nradov on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:48AM (#31447340)
McDonald's stock (MCD) pays a 2.39% dividend yield based on people buying hamburgers. That's hard cash paid out every year. Bitcoin doesn't pay any dividends.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by scotty79 on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:17PM (#31453200)
Not all companies pay dividends and people don't think their stock is as worthless as bitcoin.
Re:The cryptocurrency sell-off has exposed those swimming naked by nradov on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:17PM (#31453758)
Stockholders expect all companies to eventually pay dividends. This is literally Finance 101 material, a basic part of DCF analysis.