News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by pdevr on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:31AM (#31365542)
>>Twitter deal temporarily on hold pending details supporting calculation that spam/fake accounts do indeed represent less than 5% of users

He is asking for proof that spam and fake accounts are less than 5% of total users. He obviously believes the number is much higher[1]. This does not seem to be a deal killer - he is just calling their bluff[2]. Maybe they are right. Maybe not. We will see. Interesting times!

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1517215066550116354

[2] https://www.reuters.com/technology/twitter-estimates-spam-fa...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by itsoktocry on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:16AM (#31365926)
>He is asking for proof that spam and fake accounts are less than 5% of total users.

Considering he said this was a big reason for his purchase, you'd think the world's smartest man would have had his team do this due diligence?

Instead, he mad an offer on a whim and put the deal together in a couple days. Brilliant.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by bogantech on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:54AM (#31366344)
> Considering he said this was a big reason for his purchase, you'd think the world's smartest man would have had his team do this due diligence?

How would he get access to that data beforehand?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by ctvo on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:10AM (#31366492)
… the company would provide it to their legal team under NDA since it’s material to the deal. Ya know, as part of due diligence. There’s a whole lucrative branch of corporate law (mergers and acquisitions) for this.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by fullshark on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:46AM (#31367531)
Isn't this what's happening right now?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by shapefrog on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:11AM (#31367884)
No Elon waved due diligence and bought it as is.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by coremoff on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:04AM (#31368589)
it's what he should have done before signing the deal he signed
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by user_7832 on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:41AM (#31366192)
> the world's smartest man

Did you mean the richest? Or do you actually think he's the smartest?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by ethanbond on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:33AM (#31366720)
I think it’s sarcasm
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by user_7832 on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:36AM (#31366749)
Aah thanks, I'm not the best at getting sarcasm lol
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:46AM (#31366846)
> Considering he said this was a big reason for his purchase

I guess that would be a function of how much Twitter had told everyone their percentage was. Improving Twitter’s 5% bot problem is different than improving it with 30% bots.

But, since we consider him the smartest man, he might actually be playing a game. He knew they would lie, or were for years, and put a clause in the contract about it and they fell into a trap.

Not sure who gets to pay the contract breakup $1B fee? It may be Twitter. That would be embarrassing. But then, they shouldn’t have been telling lies, if it turns out to be the case.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by shapefrog on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:11AM (#31367866)
> and put a clause in the contract about it and they fell into a trap.

What a genius ... oh shit, there isnt a secret bot trap in the contract.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001418091/000119312...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jdmichal on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:22PM (#31370929)
Of course they didn't write it that specifically. That would be extraordinarily silly. One writes the clause to be as general as possible, while also covering the primary concern. Witness, page 25:

> Section 4.7 Information Supplied. None of the information supplied or to be supplied by or on behalf of the Company or any of its Subsidiaries expressly for inclusion or incorporation by reference in the proxy statement relating to the matters to be submitted to the Company’s stockholders at the Company Stockholders’ Meeting (such proxy statement and any amendments or supplements thereto, the “Proxy Statement”) shall, at the time the Proxy Statement is first mailed to the Company’s stockholders and at the time of the Company Stockholders’ Meeting to be held in connection with the Merger, contain any untrue statement of material fact or omit to state any material fact required to be stated therein or necessary to make the statements therein, in light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading at such applicable time, except that no representation or warranty is made by the Company with respect to statements made therein based on information supplied, or required to be supplied, by Parent or its Representatives in writing expressly for inclusion therein. The Proxy Statement will comply as to form in all material respects with the provisions of the Securities Act and the Exchange Act, and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by HillRat on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:12PM (#31372068)
The SEC filing clause (4.6(a)) is probably more germane than the proxy materials when it comes to bot calculations, and page 5 of the last Twitter 10-K covers their methodology. One can argue with their calculation method, but they're clear about how they're doing it and, as long as nothing comes to light documenting that they internally believe their bot rates to be higher than what their filing shows, they're in material compliance with the contract. There's no due-dil out for Musk in this, only a material misrepresentation penalty that Twitter is highly, highly unlikely to fall afoul of.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jdmichal on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:20PM (#31373128)
Oh I 100% agree with you on the chances that this means anything. There would have to be some evidence that they just made up a number, or invented a methodology that they knew would drastically undercount, or some-such. Just running a different methodology that returns a bigger number is not sufficient to break these clauses.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by tedunangst on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:27PM (#31371638)
What percentage spam accounts would qualify as untrue statement of material fact?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jdmichal on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:15PM (#31373087)
Any percentage that was not calculated using a methodology? As HillRat said:

* As long as they used _a_ methodology,

* and that methodology spat out 5%,

* and there's no material information to indicate that anyone thought the methodology was inaccurate or otherwise wrong,

Then there's probably nothing actionable there.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:25AM (#31368847)
Let me guess, just searched for the word "bot" and didn't find it. Well, I guess they are off the hook then...
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by adt2bt on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:07PM (#31370768)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. GP made a decent effort to try to find this clause, couldn't, and you're effectively claiming they're full of it because it's gotta be in there.

A more hacker-newsy way to approach this would be to either find the clause yourself (and earn your upvotes the hard way), or perhaps admit your baseless speculation was, indeed, baseless.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jdmichal on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:24PM (#31370941)
It's rather silly to assume the clause would be written that narrowly. I replied above with what would likely be a relevant clause, which covers any and all information supplied by Twitter.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:52PM (#31371895)
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Of course. But what's so extraordinary that a contract would have a clause about misrepresentation or providing false information in a purchase deal like this.

> A more hacker-newsy way to approach this would be to either find the clause yourself (and earn your upvotes the hard way).

Thanks, been here for 10+ years I am ok not harvesting upvotes. Maybe some other time. But ok, it's Friday, let's do a bit more search than just Ctrl+F "bot".

Twitter's 10-Q https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1418091/0001...

> We have performed an internal review of a sample of accounts and estimate that the average of false or spam accounts during the first quarter of 2022 represented fewer than 5% of our mDAU during the quarter

(From page 5)

EX-2.1 AGREEMENT AND PLAN OF MERGER https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001418091/000119312...

> [...] none of the Company SEC Documents at the time it was filed [...] contained any untrue statement of a material fact or omitted to state any material fact required to be stated therein or necessary to make the statements therein, in light of the circumstances under which they were made, or are to be made, not misleading.

(Section 4.6.a)

> The consolidated financial statements (including all related notes) of the Company included in the Company SEC Documents fairly present in all material respects the consolidated financial position of the Company [...]

(Section 4.6.b)

> None of the information supplied or to be supplied by or on behalf of the Company or any of its Subsidiaries expressly for inclusion or incorporation by reference in the proxy statement relating to the matters to be submitted to the Company’s stockholders [...] [shall] contain any untrue statement of material fact or omit to state any material fact required to be stated therein ...

(Section 4.7)

> GP made a decent effort to try to find this clause

If Ctrl+F "bot" counts for a "decent effort", I don't know, I guess...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by redredrobot on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:42PM (#31372340)
You can't just quote a part of a contract and specifically cut out the legal caveats that exists to avoid the risk of being considered material misrepresentation. The correct quote is:

> We have performed an internal review of a sample of accounts and estimate that the average of false or spam accounts during the first quarter of 2022 represented fewer than 5% of our mDAU during the quarter. The false or spam accounts for a period represents the average of false or spam accounts in the samples during each monthly analysis period during the quarter.

> In making this determination, we applied significant judgment, so our estimation of false or spam accounts may not accurately represent the actual number of such accounts, and the actual number of false or spam accounts could be higher than we have estimated

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @05:26PM (#31372698)
It may hinge on them saying they "applied significant judgment" vs due diligence showing they knew they had much higher numbers. There is a difference to "we did our best to calculate it but we could have made a mistake" vs "we calculated, got a high number but purposefully put in a low number".
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by redredrobot on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:21PM (#31373134)
Elon didn't do any non-public due diligence of Twitter
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:17PM (#31373538)
Exactly. I think he may be reconsidering that, though it's probably too late. The whole thing is very baffling.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by redredrobot on Sunday May 15, 2022 @03:07PM (#31390083)
I actually think it's probably pretty simple underneath the facade - Musk offered to buy Twitter for a lot of money. The market tanked and Musk doesn't want to pay that price any more. He thinks he can strong-arm Twitter and either not go through with the purchase or force them to accept a lower price. The law does not support this, but Musk has a history of being unbothered by the law and there are examples (not Musk) where this tactic has worked to reduce the purchase price by hundreds of millions of dollars.

Everything else is just window dressing.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by hooande on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:58PM (#31373407)
You're just wrong. This is what happens when you try to play lawyer on the internet.

You can crtl-f for "Specific Performance" and "Material Adverse Effect" in this thread for explanations of exactly how and why you're wrong

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rdtsc on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:16PM (#31373532)
> You can crtl-f for "Specific Performance" and "Material Adverse Effect" in this thread for explanations of exactly how and why you're wrong

I assume you meant ctrl-f? So I did and still don't see it. Mind explaining a bit?

> You're just wrong. This is what happens when you try to play lawyer on the internet.

Worse things have happened, surely. Not trying to find any supporting statements, then there are replies of "You didn't even try". Then providing some support and it's "how dare you, you're not even a lawyer".

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by crispyambulance on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:39PM (#31371106)
I don't think I am alone when I say I can't remotely fathom what the F Musk wants out of this whole "buy twitter" ordeal.

Do people really think this was all a game to snag a $1B fee, publicly cause havoc and possibly precipitate the sinking of Twitter? Is that really what the world's richest man wants to drop everything to work on?

Seems like A LOT to go through for someone who has several very absorbing day jobs: Tesla + SpaceX + the micronauts rocket-tube thing + neuralink + ???

Is this mania?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jquery on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:17PM (#31380130)
Definitely mania. And being surrounded by “yes men” and a legion of fans pushing you forward. Until it comes time to produce the $billions and suddenly everyone is doing their due diligence and likes/retweets aren’t worth a damn.

He also had the bad luck to do this at the same time the bottom fell out of tech and people started questioning whether buying TSLA shares at $1000 was the best marginal use of their money.

Also interest rates going up significantly, making financing much more expensive.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by daenz on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:04PM (#31371375)
People also said Trump didn't really want to be president, so it wasn't going to happen. Don't underestimate what people say they're going to do. It's usually better to take them at their word unless you have evidence otherwise.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by XorNot on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:34AM (#31366096)
Unless the contract had a clause requiring this to be demonstrated if requested. In which case it's a good way to get out of it at to he last moment: activate the clause and put Twitter in trouble if they disprove their own statements.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by that_guy_iain on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:37PM (#31372296)
Noob question, but wouldn't it be fraud if the number is higher than they're saying?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jquery on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:19PM (#31380160)
No. It would only be fraud if they knew the methodology was likely to be extremely flawed and there are receipts with executives saying “let’s choose this because of X nefarious reason.”

Twitter being wrong about the number, or using a methodology Elon doesn’t like, isn’t enough.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Hedepig on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:02AM (#31375448)
The contract explicitly states the number could be much higher than their estimate, so although IANAL, I doubt it.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by that_guy_iain on Saturday May 14, 2022 @10:37AM (#31378350)
Fraud isn't about the contract, it's about if someone lies to obtain money. Saying the stats are x when they're y because x sounds better seems like standard fraud to me.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by micromacrofoot on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:39AM (#31366161)
he knows it’s higher than 5%, everyone does
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by mpweiher on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:48PM (#31369882)
> would have had his team do this due diligence?

What makes you think he didn't? So his team has a number, their team has a number.

The numbers diverge wildly.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by nailer on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:00PM (#31370684)
> Instead, he mad an offer on a whim and put the deal together in a couple days. Brilliant.

Do you think smart people don't make decisions quickly?

That is interesting.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by JohnJamesRambo on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:48AM (#31365696)
It feels absurd for this to come up at this stage in a deal.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Naga on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:04AM (#31365839)
Agreed. This sort of issue has been public knowledge about Twitter for a long time. This sounds to me like an excuse to delay or get out with plausible deniability.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by mikkergp on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:14AM (#31365908)
While this is true it would be a huge deal if Twitter lied about it on paper.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by taytus on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:10AM (#31366490)
That 5% number is cited in Twitter’s s1 from 2013.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by loceng on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:03AM (#31367036)
It came out recently they have/had been misreporting (overly) user numbers, so this external pressure which they're now forced to deal arguably won't allow any hidden manipulation to stay hidden.

So it may be a question of just how dishonest Twitter has been, which could/should result in shareholders suing them as well.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Hedepig on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:03AM (#31375452)
They are quite transparent the number could be much higher
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by sneak on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:31AM (#31366066)
Public knowledge? Where are the authoritative, due-diligence-level public statements on the topic of fake Twitter accounts?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by axlee on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:34AM (#31366095)
Elon himself was ranting for months about Bots and "real ID" on Twitter, and he did not bother to include due diligence before manipulating the market with a bogus offer?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by _fizz_buzz_ on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:50AM (#31366897)
Public knowledge != authoritative, due-diligence-level public statement

But he did know it was a problem [1], so it's at least a bit shifty that now he pretends he suddenly says that it is a deal breaker. I suppose a court would have to decide if he has a right to back out or not without repercussions.

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1517215066550116354

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by sneak on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:55AM (#31368479)
He didn't suddenly say it's a deal breaker, or anything of the sort.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Mountain_Skies on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:40AM (#31366174)
Sounds like the excuse Edward Snowden's detractors used that everything he revealed was already known so he wasn't helpful. But having actual proof instead of easily dismissed rumors or "conspiracy theories" is important.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by throwawaylinux on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:57AM (#31365772)
Why? What is the deal and what stage is it up to?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by onion2k on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:45AM (#31365671)
This does not seem to be a deal killer - he is just calling their bluff

What does he gain by calling their bluff?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by ceejayoz on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:52AM (#31365737)
Getting out of the deal after the recent stock slump? Without the $1B penalty fee?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by rendall on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:47AM (#31365688)
Maybe negotiating tactic?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by basisword on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:04AM (#31365833)
Reduction in price.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by RF_Savage on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:48AM (#31365700)
Parhaps a lower price?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by raverbashing on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:34AM (#31366093)
I'm always amazed when that kind of question pops up. Because it shows how knowledge of basic business practices is less circulated.

If you're selling me a house and saying it's one size but in practice it's another you bet I'm taking it up with you! I can be happy to buy it as is (depending on the case) but this says a lot about the seller.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by dwild on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:22AM (#31368797)
One of his goal was to get rid of spams bots and fake accounts. If you go that far to buy something because you think you can make it better by fixing an issue, you don't do it because that issue only represents 5% of it...

I remember when he said he was going to do that, a good proportions of comments were about how he will slash a most of his Twitter followers by doing so. Did Elon himself thought there were less bots than what the majority of people believed?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by d3nj4l on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:57AM (#31366374)
If you signed a deal to buy a house without checking the size it's on you.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by raverbashing on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:43AM (#31366825)
Yes, that's why most large deals allow for due diligence before the deal effectively closes
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by d3nj4l on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:07AM (#31367081)
If you’re waiting until after signing a deal to do basic due diligence, especially on supposedly material information that didn’t even exist at the time you made your offer - Twitter reported the 5% figure in May, Elon made his offer in April - it is, 100%, unambiguously, on you.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by MichaelZuo on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:43AM (#31367493)
Has Twitter ever provided that kind of info to anyone?

Why wouldn't they wait until money is already on the table? I just don't see how they would have benefited by disclosing real numbers beforehand.

It's far more likely no one could have done due diligence outside of the executives and top engineers at Twitter.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by d3nj4l on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:34AM (#31368968)
None of that matters, because Elon can’t claim to be mislead by a figure that didn’t exist when he made his offer. Whatever he expected it to be has nothing to do with twitter saying it is 5% in May.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by MichaelZuo on Saturday May 14, 2022 @06:43PM (#31383424)
I dont think its fair to expect Elon, or anyone, to have done due diligence beforehand in a situation when it would have been impossible to collect the relevant info without some shady tactics. Unless you mean his team should have employed shady tactics to gather that info.?

Sure he may be employing this as a stalling tactic, but there’s no obligation for him to treat the Twitter folks with kid glove either. This is what high stakes negotiations are about.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by onion2k on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:52AM (#31367604)
Well, maybe, except there's a few problems with that;

- Buying Twitter is a bit different to buying a house. The offer price for shares is set, and (as far as I know) Elon can't move it without withdrawing and reoffering, which incurs all sorts of fun legal issues and penalties.

- If it's due diligence and Elon actually might withdraw from the deal then fair enough, but then it's not a bluff.

- If it's a bluff, and Elon still intends to buy, telling the world there are actually more spam/bots than the Twitter reported devalues the company. It doesn't seem like a great move as an investor.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by infogulch on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:56PM (#31369986)
If he's buying the whole thing it doesn't matter what other investors think it's worth.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by bink on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:21PM (#31370915)
But it does matter what percentage of users advertisers believe are bots.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by not2b on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:56PM (#31370621)
He's not entitled to such proof. It isn't a condition of the purchase agreement.

His choices are: pay the original price, or pay the $1 billion cancellation fee. There might be a third choice: Twitter could offer to renegotiate, but they aren't obliged to. They could take the $1 billion instead.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by RivieraKid on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:07AM (#31365859)
OMG. I'm astonished that people still can't see through his lies and BS.

It took me about 3 seconds to realize that after the stock market crashed, Elon wanted to get a better price. The 5% stuff is just a random excuse.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by abofh on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:37AM (#31367427)
He doesn't want a better price, he wants to get out of a serious case of buyers remorse. The play has so far gone like:

- "I'm going to buy twitter", buys a bunch of shares, has to report it

- Board says "No", adopts poison pill

- "Fine, I'll make you let me buy you" submits a contingent but binding offer to the board.

- Board says, well, our duty is to the shareholders, you're offering a big premium, we accept, here's a bunch of terms to keep you from backing out without paying them something.

- "Ha Ha!" shouts Elon, "I've proven I can buy anything now!"

- Yes, yes, say the banks as they bind him and his companies stock to the tender offer, you can buy that, we just want TSLA stock, that's fine.

- Stock market looks at the situation and says "wat", down-values TSLA because their CEO is spending his time buying... a social media platform?

- Musk starts to see the writing on the wall and realizes if he can't make twitter substantially more valuable in the short term, he's on the hook for a large chunk of his personal wealth (which hurts) but also a large chunk of his company (which hurts the ego) and starts to suffer buyers remorse.

- "Ha ha" says the board, you can get out any time you'd like, we'd just like our 10-digit check.

- looks for an escape clause - maybe you committed securities fraud Mr. Twitter? Check again for me would you?

I mean, broad strokes, this has been the saga in front of us - rich man wants to do something silly, gets told no, gets more determined, and fights tooth and nail, and finally, regrets his decision.

So now, _either_ he was short-sighted and wanted to buy a company he'd failed to do due diligence on and is trying to get out of the purchase that way, OR he has heap big buyers remorse, pays a billion and gets out of it that way, or he becomes the proud partial owner of a social media company with limited network effects. Who knows, but he had already staked up 7% or so beforehand - so 3B give or take, didn't back down looking into their numbers then, and only _after_ ponying up another 35B did he think, you know, maybe this is a bad idea.

But I just got an air popper, so please, let the show go on.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by shapefrog on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:06AM (#31367793)
You skipped out the original dogecoin-esq pump and dump that got the ball rolling in the first place.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by esjeon on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:21PM (#31373575)
That makes the story too large to fit in the margin here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jquery on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:04PM (#31388938)
Details please!
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by SheinhardtWigCo on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:56AM (#31369222)
Here's a fun and somewhat believable conspiracy theory:

What if there's internal data indicating that it's closer to, like, 30%?

In that case, a buyout offer conditional on a DAU audit is certain to expose that data, and that's checkmate for TWTR.

Musk can then either buy it at a massive discount, or use the enormous amount of free press to launch a competitor with mandatory device attestation.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by minsc_and_boo on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:59PM (#31370673)
It doesn't matter what twitter has internally, they have no fiscal duty to report what percentage of users are or are not fully human driven.

It's the buyer's responsibility to undergo due diligence before making serious, legally-binding offers. Musk is very clearly scraping for excuses now that he has buyer's remorse.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by outworlder on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:49PM (#31372403)
> or use the enormous amount of free press to launch a competitor with mandatory device attestation.

That's what I think he's actually trying to do, as part of his "master plan part III". Twitter is only valuable because of users - but they are not worth this incredible premium. He's seen how attempts at launching 'free speech' platforms have gone.

He can easily build a competitor for a fraction of the deal's price. He can easily outspend any company. But that doesn't guarantee users - eyeball time is a limited resource. However, if he torpedoes twitter, he can get a bunch of users from the wreckage.

And, you know, profit from some nice pump and dump in the meantime.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by motohagiography on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:34PM (#31369701)
What is the objection to this hypothesis? It's not even a conspiracy theory, it's that the board has misrepresented the DAU, and in turn, the value of the company.

To adapt an adage - Musk has already established what the company is, now he's just negotiating the price.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by threeseed on Friday May 13, 2022 @05:20PM (#31372655)
> What if there's internal data indicating that it's closer to, like, 30%?

Pretty sure users would notice if 1/3 of all tweets are computer-generated.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by scotuswroteus on Friday May 13, 2022 @05:33PM (#31372744)
They do notice. And people use the block button and call everyone NPCs
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by ohgodplsno on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:15AM (#31365917)
Also, his collateral for the buyout is Tesla stock, which took a 20% dip. If people believed he would truly buy at $54, they would let the deal go through and make bank. The fact that they are still selling down to $34 means that everyone is seeing through Elon's bullshit.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by parkingrift on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:42AM (#31366202)
Or, alternatively, Twitter is a shit show behind the scenes and Musk is seeing red flags in diligence.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by hooande on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:54AM (#31366343)
There isn't formal due diligence, he's already made the offer. He doesn't (legally) have access to any information that he didn't have access to weeks ago.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by gsibble on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:06AM (#31368608)
Of course there is formal due diligence. He basically gave them a term sheet and now they've opened their books. That's why he can walk away and pay $1 billion if he doesn't like what he sees.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by josho on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:15PM (#31371503)
What due diligence occurs when buying a public company? We already have access to the company’s financial filings.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by outworlder on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:50PM (#31372413)
So you are saying TWTR reported fraudulent financials?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by parkingrift on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:38PM (#31369746)
That isn’t how acquisitions works. What Elon and Twitter have done is effectively sign an LOI. Now they do actual diligence to close the deal, or walk away and pay the breakup fee.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by avs733 on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:05AM (#31367775)
So what is the evidence in support of that hypothesis?

The pattern of behavior by Elon seems pretty strong support for the alternative.

The only support I see for this position is the assumption that musk is smarter than everyone else.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by parkingrift on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:39PM (#31369773)
In support of what hypothesis? Musk is in diligence. To walk away without any cause he would have to pay $1,000,000,000. He doesn’t have to say why he’s decided to walk away, but he has a billion reasons not to walk without cause.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by scarface74 on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:11AM (#31367865)
Twitter’s financials and business strategy are shit show in front of the scenes.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by logifail on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:46AM (#31366248)
> his collateral for the buyout is Tesla stock

That may have been part of the original plan, but:

"Elon Musk is in talks to raise enough equity and preferred financing for his proposed buyout of Twitter to eliminate the need for any margin loan linked to his Tesla shares, according to people with knowledge of the matter. "[0]

[0] https://fortune.com/2022/05/12/elon-musk-avoid-tesla-margin-...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by koolba on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:49AM (#31366278)
IIRC, the breakup fee if the deal does not go through is $1B. Given the massive dive in the market, that’s peanuts compared to the drop in the “fair” price.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by sidibe on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:15AM (#31365921)
I'm pretty sure he never intended to buy it to begin with. He was just using it as a convenient excuse to sell some TSLA
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by caoilte on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:53AM (#31366334)
$1billion is a lot just to sell some TSLA stock.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by dragontamer on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:26AM (#31366649)
He sold at the peak, near $900.

Given that the stock is near $700 right now, it's looking like a good deal.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:09AM (#31367845)
He sold billions last year without the excuse of buying Twitter.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by cronix on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:00AM (#31368545)
Yeah, he had to pay an 11 BILLION dollar tax bill to California and the IRS, for stock options issued in 2012. It was reported as the largest federal tax bill in history.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizahaverstock/2021/12/15/elon...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by dragontamer on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:37AM (#31368230)
He needs an excuse to get people buying his stock, to support the stock price as he sells.

Back then it was a Twitter poll to sell shares IIRC. Musk makes a big deal out of everything to lead his followers around

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by sidibe on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:48AM (#31368386)
That was to pay his taxes supposedly, so he still had an excuse. People might worry if he's just diversifying for its own sake
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:57PM (#31370003)
If he didn't sell the stocks then he wouldn't have to pay any tax on unrealized gains. According to him, he sold the stocks so they he would pay taxes in response to criticism of not paying his "fair share" in taxes.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by dragontamer on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:11PM (#31370184)
Wrong.

Musk's stock options became fully vested and matured. That forced a tax event on him last year.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jquery on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:07PM (#31388966)
If this is true, he’s absolutely a pathological liar.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by outworlder on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:51PM (#31372422)
Yeah. He lied. Again.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by sidibe on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:01AM (#31366409)
Even if you think he'll have to pay that which from this tweet it seems he's going to try to dodge, he got to sell a lot of stock without anyone thinking he has any doubts on Tesla, which would cost a lot more than 1 billion
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by minsc_and_boo on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:06PM (#31370754)
More like attempting to pump TWTR before he sold his holdings there.

Twitter board called his bluff and now he's trying to weasel out of it.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by kmos17 on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:14PM (#31370855)
Yes he just wants an excuse to exit the deal because Tesla’s stock is tanking.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Msw242 on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:42AM (#31366198)
Lies and BS?

If you could save a few billion wouldn't you?

It's a negotiation, and with the markets turning, he's got all the cards.

The cost of reneging is only 1bn, and the company would probably lose half it's market cap if the deal fell through

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by throwawaylinux on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:41AM (#31366185)
You mean to tell me there are some unscrupulous people out there who want to pay less money for things rather than more? The horror!
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by mlindner on Friday May 13, 2022 @11:57AM (#31369242)
> I'm astonished that people still can't see through his lies and BS.

Almost everything people believe about Musk is lies and BS. Do you have anything to back up what you're saying? Otherwise you're just adding more lies and BS on to the pile.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by exodust on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:40AM (#31366179)
> OMG. I'm astonished...

Why is wanting a better price such an issue? "The 5% stuff" is like when information surfaces about a faulty or inaccurate odometer reading on the used car you're about to buy. If tampered with, let's negotiate a new price.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by WHA8m on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:58AM (#31366381)
yes, but no.

This is unethical negotiating. If you make a bid, you better look beforehand, what you're bidding on. If your bidding has an effect on someone, you better be careful with it.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by patrec on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:01PM (#31370701)
> This is unethical negotiating.

It's only unethical negotiating if the Twitter board hasn't put out inflated DAU numbers. Maybe the sudden firing of Kayvon Beykpour and Bruce Falck has raised some new suspicions about this question in Musk's mind?

> If you make a bid, you better look beforehand, what you're bidding on.

Well, looks like he did, but now questions whether what he was shown was actually truthful, no?

> If your bidding has an effect on someone, you better be careful with it.

So there are two times two possibilities: Musk genuinely has doubts about the DAU metric he hasn't had before in the force or he hasn't. Similarly there are two possibilities about the accuracy of the DAU metrics: they are within an excusable distance of the truth or they aren't. Assuming they aren't, regardless of Musk's true motives, why would Twitter deserve to be shielded from the fallout?

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by minsc_and_boo on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:10PM (#31370811)
It's a red herring, and now you're arguing about fish.

Musk made a serious, legally binding offer to buy with no contingencies for users (human, cyborg, bot, or otherwise). Now he wants out so he's using this bad faith argument to weasel out of the $1B escape clause.

Twitter has zero responsibility for needing to report which accounts are completely human or not human. Even if he genuinely cared about bots, Musk still screwed up by not doing due diligence before the offer.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by shawabawa3 on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:51AM (#31366296)
The 5% figure was certainly known by Elon before making the deal
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by exodust on Friday May 13, 2022 @09:22AM (#31367250)
Known because someone said "5%" or known because someone proved it was 5%?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by imustbeevil on Friday May 13, 2022 @10:03AM (#31367752)
Either. Caveat emptor. You don't get to question the ingredients of food in your stomach.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by exodust on Saturday May 14, 2022 @10:23AM (#31378186)
It's not in my stomach, it's food I'm thinking about buying.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by imustbeevil on Monday May 16, 2022 @08:27AM (#31396142)
In the context of the Twitter transaction, the purchase agreement was already made.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Hackbraten on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:20AM (#31365959)
Not everyone is interested enough in the US stock market to keep an eye on it. I haven’t even heard about a stock market crash before you mentioned it.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by axlee on Friday May 13, 2022 @07:32AM (#31366077)
Then why would you comment in a thread about a stock sale if you're obviously uninterested about the market?
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by Hackbraten on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:39PM (#31371760)
I use Twitter every day so I’m curious about the future of the platform.

And when I saw your comment implying you’re astonished about people not getting it, I meant to offer you, in good faith, one anecdotal data point in order to make you feel a little less puzzled.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by nailer on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:36PM (#31370419)
> He obviously believes the number is much higher[1]

That reference - "If our twitter bid succeeds, we will defeat the spam bots or die trying!" - does not assert your claim.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by phailhaus on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:15PM (#31371506)
Elon already signed. There is literally no such thing as "putting it on hold." See Matt Levine's latest column, he can't even back out if it turns out there are more than 5% spam/fake accounts. [1] He's playing games because he's the richest man in the world and if you try to hold him accountable he will make your life hell. He's really shown his true colors these last few years, absolutely no respect for him anymore.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-13/elon-m...

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by xenospn on Saturday May 14, 2022 @12:21AM (#31375061)
I came to the exact same conclusion. He's turning into Gru, with his own little army of sad minions.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by AshamedCaptain on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:12PM (#31371468)
You can estimate yourself from the comfort of your own home how many accounts are spam. Just make a list of 100 random accounts. Truly random, not just "followers of X" or whatever. Then manually look each of them and classify as spam or not. There's your percentage.

If you want more accuracy, hire some people from say Amazon's Mechanical Turk and do 1000. 10k.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by madrox on Friday May 13, 2022 @03:16PM (#31371517)
I used this exact method a decade ago (thanks statistics 101) to estimate and got 10% with a minuscule margin of error. That was a decade ago though.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by outworlder on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:45PM (#31372361)
Some data here: https://botsentinel.com/
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by cm2187 on Friday May 13, 2022 @06:49AM (#31365713)
Or perhaps it is linked to the firing of executives, that seemed to puzzle people.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by tmaly on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:10PM (#31370170)
By what criteria can you determine an account is spam/fake?

That seems like a difficult thing to determine.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by piva00 on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:28PM (#31370348)
Solving to detect the signal and solving to resolve the problem is the same solution... Paradoxical engineering.
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by jonny_eh on Friday May 13, 2022 @01:25PM (#31370315)
> We will see. Interesting times!

I'm sorry, but what a worthless thing to say. I can't stand it when pundits say this.

Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by spiderice on Friday May 13, 2022 @05:01PM (#31372500)
The irony of this comment..
Re:Twitter Deal Temporarily on Hold by paulcole on Friday May 13, 2022 @08:11AM (#31366499)
If this guy’s such a genius why didn’t he ask for proof sooner? He’s looking for any excuse to pull the plug.