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Re:Lets talk about blockchains by arriu on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:12PM (#31196903)
I also agree that not everything needs a blockchain or decentralized layers. And moreover agree that there is a giant amount of garbage on the chain.

However, can we take a moment to acknowledge how biased the crowd here is against blockchain? I know you’re tired of the buzzwords, but the other side is also tired of the hostility towards there maybe being something useful on the chain.

As the author has pointed out, things have evolved substantially over the last year and it deserves open and fair discussion.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by dang on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:42PM (#31197278)
It's a two cultures thing. Unfortunately, both of the cultures produce a lot of indignant froth, and since the internet is wired for indignation, that's what gets repeated over and over.

Since repetition is off topic here, we need to avoid this and stick to pathways that haven't fried yet.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by peyton on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:50PM (#31197360)
It’s sad because there’s been so much progress in cryptography over the past 10 years, and now we’re nearing a point where a little imagination would go a long way.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by screye on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#31197131)
It also has to do with very few posts about genuinely ground breaking projects.

I have personally found it rather difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff. If you have any suggestions on promising projects in the space then please do link me to it.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by dubswithus on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:36PM (#31197909)
Brave/BAT. Micropayments and a new model for advertising. It probably has the largest userbase in the crypto space.

https://brave.com/transparency/

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by ruffrey on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:27PM (#31197092)
It’s unfortunate how the entire blockchain ecosystem is overshadowed by overhyped scams and nasty hacks.

There are countless economy-changing experiments happening in the DeFi community. Rebuilding of Wall Street and insurance infrastructure being attempted on chain, where trust and centralization and scams or unfairness are ripe for disruption. Staking assets to provide liquidity pools has resulted in billions coming on chain.

Plenty of people are trying to make a quick buck. Plenty of hacks and bad engineering is happening. Most things don’t need a blockchain. I wish HN community looked deeper though.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by bilekas on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:19PM (#31196983)
I personally haven't seen any problem solved by the blockchain thus far. However I do think the whole ecosystem is flooded with 'morons' who believe its just the solution to everything. Usually people who don't know what they're talking about and only thinking of the money side of it.

There is value in almost every new technology, I think blockchain and co haven't gotten a bad rap thanks to the 'morons' who are basically just 'pumping and dumping' or 'hyping' to make quick money. Which IMO is a shame because it stops the real innovation taking place.

It could be something, but it's been given (rightly so) a stigma thanks to the cult of 'crypto bros'. So far a waste of potential.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by tombert on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:48PM (#31197343)
> I personally haven't seen any problem solved by the blockchain thus far.

I don't know that it counts since it's not a "blockchain" in the sense most people describe it, but Git is sort of "blockchain adjacent." It uses a Merkle tree to maintain a crytographically signed quasi-immutable ledger of transactions.

While it's probably not a "blockchain", I don't think that anyone disputes that Git (and its blockchain-like feature) is useful.

I suspect that this is going to be the "good" that comes from blockchain [1] and its ilk; a lot of interesting uses are going to pop up using blockchain concepts, and it will be cannibalized into something that is indisputably useful.

I agree that there are a lot of crypto idiots who act like all problems will be solved by Bitcoin or Ethereum, and I do think they give the legitimate research being done on blockchain (e.g. the Ouroboros protocol) a bad name.

[1] I know Git predates blockchain.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#31197125)
> I personally haven't seen any problem solved by the blockchain thus far.

Solved problem: Hyperinflation caused by excessive governmental money printing.

Yes, I know you may not consider this as a "problem", but tell that to the millions of people who have had to watch their life savings being erased to zero value.

Yes, the Bitcoin price may be jumpy, but we aren't yet seeing kids playing with bricks of trillions of Bitcoins because they'd be so worthless that you can give them to your kids as toys.

That DID happen with fiat currency:

Enter "hyperinflation" into your favorite picture search engine.

I personally own a 1 billion bill of a previous currency of my country which I bought for the equivalent of $5 on eBay.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by bilekas on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:37PM (#31197207)
Hyper inflation is absolutely a problem. Not solved by the blockchain though..

I think you're referencing BTC in use as some kind of ubiquitous currency ? That would be an interesting use, until someone owns enough to influence the market, which, already happens, so it would make matters worse for more people

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by disruptalot on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:43PM (#31197286)
> Owns enough to influence the market

Meaning acquiring it fairly from the market?

As compared to fiat currencies, which can be issued and moved around with the snap of a finger. That's a net improvement.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:49PM (#31197348)
> Not solved by the blockchain though..

Uhm, why not?

As far as I see, the price of Bitcoin has actually even hyperDEFLATED.

It started below $1! Now it is at $40000.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by foobarian on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:42PM (#31197274)
Just wait until a 51% attack succeeds. I don't think the BTC network is as resistant to government interference as you may expect.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:54PM (#31197408)
If they try to print more Bitcoin by changing the software that does NOT automatically mean that the majority of Bitcoin users will install and run that modified software.

The non-"print more money" version will reject its blocks.

So even if they throw 90% of hashpower at it then it will not be the consensus because nobody uses a version of Bitcoin which accepts the blocks it mines.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by marcosdumay on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:41PM (#31197949)
If it brought a lot of value, people would be using it everywhere. If the name carries a bad reputation, people would just use a different name. (Naming never stopped the adoption of a technology; it being hard to apply has, but I'm not sure how much it applies to blockchain.)

The problem is that the "social ledge" value of a blockchain is hilariously expensive, to the point that governments look cheap in comparison. And a private ledge doesn't bring a lot of value into any application (but where it does bring a bit more of value, it is getting adopted, like version control systems).

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by rvz on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:51PM (#31200080)
> As the author has pointed out, things have evolved substantially over the last year and it deserves open and fair discussion.

I don't think you will get an 'open and fair discussion' here, even if you list examples like Stripe (Using blockchain for crypto payouts) [0] and Skiff (Using ENS for identities for their E2E decentralized workspace) [1].

When asked about this earlier, you get random incomprehensible replies like "CrYPtO IS SCaM" and admitting they haven't even looked at the article and either cannot answer basic questions or reply back with another question without given a concrete answer to the first.

Good luck getting an 'open and fair discussion' about anything crypto without someone screeching absolutist scam nonsense or some die hard crypto supporter / investor pushing their 'NFTs is the future' nonsense.

   Don't fall in *either* of those camps.
[0] https://stripe.com/blog/expanding-global-payouts-with-crypto

[1] https://skiff.org/

[2] https://skiff.org/blog/skiff-x-ethereum-naming

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31133074

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by root_axis on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:34PM (#31197179)
The "bias" against blockchains is rooted in the fundamental nature of the technology combined with the breathless unsubstantiated hype that the enthusiasts project into the discourse. Blockchains have earned their bad reputation.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by Dwolb on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:33PM (#31197165)
Which is weird because YC has made crypto investments.

Looks like around 11 [1].

[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies?query=cryptocurrency&t...

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by xigoi on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:16PM (#31196950)
Until they stop consuming more electricity than a big country, there is a moral right to be hostile toward them.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by dang on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:36PM (#31197196)
Please let's not repeat the same flamewar tropes for the ten thousandth time. Whether it's right or wrong, this level of repetition is deeply uninteresting.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by MrMan on Thursday April 28, 2022 @11:10PM (#31200943)
the fact that so many capable humans have constructed this orgy of greed which is purely financial, at a time when the global economy actually requires massive definancialization, is of profound interest.

this is a huge distraction, and another way to divide people, and use tricks or marketing to cause them to act out of FOMO and greed.

it would be "interesting" if we were debating how to solve the supply line fragility, the need for soil, the need to keep the temperature down, the need to achieve some modicum of equality here in North America so that millions of intelligent humans dont become slaves and have their potential as inventors and scientists wasted.

who survives all this will not see your comment, probably, but the facile way that you declare these fundamental questions of survival as .... uninteresting ... makes me despair.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by dang on Friday April 29, 2022 @12:00AM (#31201270)
The thing to do with those large concerns is to post something interesting about them in their own right—not change a different thread to that subject. If they're as important as you say, there must be plenty of interesting things to discuss.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by bovermyer on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:21PM (#31197016)
While the electricity problem does need to be addressed, do not be so quick to lump all blockchain users, advocates, and researchers into a single hideous glob.

There is value to be achieved, I think, in a more nuanced approach.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by alimov on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:37PM (#31197203)
I think it’s safe to say that the vast majority are a blob. There is a substantial overlap between users and advocates (shared interest in seeing <coin> “go to the moon”)… adding “researchers” here to lend some credibility to the blob is unfair to the researchers who probably make up < 1% (low figure in just tossing out there)… If there is “value to be achieved”, it won’t be achieved by speculators on coin prices…
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by Benjammer on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:36PM (#31197199)
I think the problem is that, at least in this area, the only people asking for more nuance are bitcoin supporters, and they aren’t open to nuanced reasoning for why people hate bitcoin. “Nuance,” to them, just means letting them win some of the arguments or admitting that some of what they say is not entirely bad. That’s not “nuance,” that’s appeasement.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by Beldin on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:38PM (#31197213)
Bitcoin has existed for about 13 years. Given its environmental impact, it's high time there was value beyond criminal money flow and gambling on exchange rates.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by briffle on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#31197132)
I thought the electricity usage was due to the 'mining' for new crypto, not for the actual blockchain that stores the 'ledger' of transactions.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by danans on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:35PM (#31197191)
Mining is what gives legitimacy to the records stored on the blockchain, what allows it to be "trustless". No mining, no blockchain.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by flir on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:38PM (#31197225)
They're inextricably linked by design. The "mined" bitcoins are the reward for successfully attaching some transactions to the ledger in a computationally expensive way.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by bilekas on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:21PM (#31197015)
While I agree, I don't think this should be a fair primary reason. Unless you also feel the same about everything else that consumes more electricity than it could. There wouldn't be a concern if all energy was green for example, that should be where the energy hostility should be pointed. Trying to complain about the blockchain and its useage on power is an XY problem for me.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by xigoi on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:26PM (#31197079)
I don't know about any other thing that's literally designed to consume as much electricity as possible.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by disruptalot on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:39PM (#31197245)
Consuming energy is a requirement for it to provide its stated benefits. If you're able to conjure the protocol which doesn't require PoW and still maintains the characteristics, you would be welcomed with open arms.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by arriu on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#31197129)
Blockchain != Bitcoin
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by bilekas on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:38PM (#31197226)
Thank you for saying what we're all thinking.

The above highlights my point in a sense.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by jovial_cavalier on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:29PM (#31197115)
Many chains are already proof of stake, and many others are transitioning, including Ethereum.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by xigoi on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:01PM (#31197491)
Proof of stake only allows rich people to verify transactions, which seems to… contradict the goals of cryptocurrency.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by jovial_cavalier on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:24PM (#31198400)
Howso? Those people cannot pervert the actual transaction, they will be slashed, and the money I believe goes to the node who proves them wrong, as incentive (don't quote me). It remains completely decentralized and effectively ungovernable, which I believe is the primary goal of cryptocurrency. I don't think it was ever meant to address the "rich get richer" effect.

Also, the practical upshot of the previous dynamic was that only people who could afford thousands of GPUs/ASICs/FPGAs could verify transactions, so it was basically the same effect with more steps.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by birdyrooster on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:34PM (#31197180)
Stellar doesn't do this.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by once_inc on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:22PM (#31197029)
You don't use a wash dryer I assume. Or Christmas lights? Plugged out all standby appliances? Never drive a car? Working without a laptop?

Comparing energy usage of a global system with the total energy usage of a country is absurd, and people doing it should feel ashamed they didnt rationally think about what they said/wrote.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by Mordisquitos on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:07PM (#31197567)
The fundamental difference between (proof-of-work) blockchains and the examples that you mentioned is that (pow) blockchains not only must consume ever increasing amounts of electricity by their very design, but they also incentivise doing so as much as possible, the only limit being whether you can afford it.

Let's take Bitcoin for instance. I'm pretty sure that the electricity required to perform one single BTC transaction has grown by multiple orders of magnitude since Bitcoin first appeared, regardless of the possible efficiency improvements in GPUs or ASICs, and will continue to grow—hence, profitability will always scale linearly with the willingness and capability to waste.

On the other hand, dryers, Christmas lights, appliances, cars and laptops etc. have, if anything, all become more energy-efficient in the past decade, being able to perform the same funcion or better while using less power. On top of that, there's only so much washing you want to dry, or so many places you want to drive to—you don't want to indefinitely scale up the size of your dryer, or the number of cars you drive. And if you were to find a reason to scale up either of them, it would be because there is a business opportunity in providing a material service to customers, either laundry or transport. In that case, your profitability would be limited by how many people want their clothes dried or to be driven somewhere, and not just by how big you can afford the dryer or how many cars you can accumulate.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by NovemberWhiskey on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:40PM (#31197254)
How about we compare the energy usage of a single transaction against the entire home electricity costs of a two-person household, then?

A single bitcoin transaction uses more electricity than my apartment does in two months (at least during the spring).

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by lkrubner on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#31197126)
A dish washing machine is useful. A clothes washing machine is useful. Christmas lights help celebrate a tradition that's important to billions of people, some of whom see deep religious meaning it. Cars are useful. Laptops are useful. As such, none of these things can be compared to blockchain. You're making an invalid comparison. To take one use case of blockchain, Bitcoin debuted in 2009. It's been 13 years, about half the age of the commercial Web. If blockchain was going to lead to something useful, then that would have happened already. Its failure to find a use case suggests that this is pure hype.
Re:Lets talk about blockchains by Beldin on Thursday April 28, 2022 @03:32PM (#31197150)
It is absurd, but such absurdity is needed to make the energy waste relatable.

You could compare a blockchain transaction's energy use to that of a credit card payment. But that would not convey the scale difference.

Re:Lets talk about blockchains by jancsika on Thursday April 28, 2022 @04:35PM (#31197879)
I rather think there's well-placed skepticism (at least on HN) of the decentralize-all-the-things crowd. That crowd gets louder on a monthly basis and makes ever more grand and urgent pronouncements about the need to decentralize all the things. Since there are many open research problems with decentralization in programming, this leads to these posts having more than their fair share of magical thinking.

"We are building distributed filesystems" as a new(ish) practical user control is one such example. IPFS has been around for much longer than a year, so I'm not sure what the author means by "past year." Regardless, it is slow. Regardless, isn't privacy-preserving.

Perhaps the speed issue could be solved with improvements to the software. Let's imagine it's fast, then-- what are we going do with it? We can't house Scihub there-- otherwise the nodes replicating it will get hit with lawsuits. Similarly, we can't build a new Demonoid or any other sharing service that lets students and scholars pool together the various copies of reference materials that they own.

At the same time, college students are constantly bootstrapping all kinds of private content collections on private centralized services, and sharing it among themselves (and, unfortunately, not re-sharing it outside their group so these collections keep getting rebuild opportunistically), jumping from app to app as tastes for apps change. That's achieved with the current internet plus all the walled gardens that people use to get their work done. If our distributed filesystem cannot include the content these users are already sharing amongst themselves, then it's functionally equivalent to a hard-drive that won't allow writing based on certain content hashes. Moreover, if users still have to do cartwheels to use the distributed filesystem in a privacy-preserving way, they may as well use their current walled garden apps that are probably decades ahead in terms of UX.

Yes, blockchain certainly has its share of hot air from finance. But this pairing of blockchain plus decentralize-all-the-things overlays (which will be done baking real soon now!) is particularly prone to magical thinking. One because blockchain fans typically handwave scaling issues (or pivot to a non-blockchain approach which isn't functionally equivalent to blockchain), and two because decentralization zealots are prone to releasing vaporware.

I hope that clarifies things. I've certainly reacted on this list with hostility to low-effort blockchain pitches from people who have a clear conflict-of-interest. My hostility is probably like other people's here-- based in knowledge of the disappearing act that these magic-thinking systems can perform on the money of ordinary folks. That's real damage, and it's bad. The day someone makes a repo for "sloth sort" by pasting a jpeg of a sloth in a readme for sleep sort and performs a pump and dump scheme on it, I'll be sure to be hostile towards that, too. Meanwhile, people seem to only be doing that with blockchain-based cryptocurrencies. That more likely explains the hostility here than the idea that anyone is (unwittingly or otherwise) biased against blockchain.

Edit: typos, clarifications