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Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:33PM (#31114180)
Kohl did the same in Germany by pushing copper cables instead of fibre in the 1980s since the former minister for post and telecommunication, Schwarz-Schilling, was the owner of a company manufacturing copper cable. Typical example for corrupt politicians of Kohl's CDU party.

https://netzpolitik.org/2018/danke-helmut-kohl-kabelfernsehe... (in German)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by DoingIsLearning on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:00PM (#31114510)
> Typical example for corrupt politicians of Kohl's CDU party.

Schröder is SPD and he seems to be shoulders deep in Nord Stream controversy and Gazprom money. So it kind of looks like a German political class issue rather than a CDU issue.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:19PM (#31114689)
CDU/CSU politicians are at least caught more often than SPD-related politicians. But Schröder and also Scholz certainly also have some skeletons in the closet (and don't get me started on the FDP or AfD...).

There's another Wikipedia article listing known corruption affairs: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Korruptionsaffären_u...

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by coob on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:27PM (#31114754)
Scholz has also consistently lied about not blocking getting heavy weapons to Ukraine.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by formerly_proven on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:32PM (#31114793)
The problem with old fiber is that active networks are even more of a dead-end than copper. Active fiber networks leave you with whatever tech you buried and put up on every corner; upgrading is basically as expensive as laying new line. It seems to me like in the 80s and 90s active networks were favored (see e.g. OPAL) - which would be far more useless today than copper, as copper's capabilities expanded hugely over time as more sophisticated modulation techniques became possible.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by quink on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:47PM (#31114974)
> upgrading is basically as expensive as laying new line

That assertion is highly dependent on too many factors and even recent developments to be of much use.

That general assertion needs to be backed up with everything around the soil type, the copper diameter, labour costs, protocols and type of fibre, etc., etc.

And if you’re going down the route of having VDSL ISAMs in the field anyway then you’re certainly going to have the infrastructure there already anyway to support GPON over whatever fibre is in the ground anyway.

And are you sure that by “copper’s capabilities” you’re not actually referring to progressively closer deployment of infrastructure to the customer to overcome copper’s limitations? Because the move from dial any number to the local exchange to a node (FTTN) to now the curb (FTTC) certainly seems to reflect that more adequately.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by gopher_space on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:09PM (#31115790)
Are there more people available to work on one vs the other, or would you be trained to handle both?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by radicaldreamer on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:38PM (#31114868)
Copper is still trash though compared to passive fiber... and expensive to run. Loads of electricity and amps required to use it and a lot of fine tuning and interference management and maintenance.

A ton of costly, endless work when you can bypass all of that by laying some passive fiber...

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by ZeroGravitas on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:34AM (#31120375)
Do you have any links to Korea or Japan hitting these insurmountable problems? Last I heard they had better internet than the UK fairly consistently for decades.

Though, if they did hit a problem, just sensibly regulating shared national infrastructure of high industrial, cultural and economic importance seems like it would solve anything that came up better rather than shouting "free market" and "regulation bad" while you hand things over to American corporations in an act of brazen corruption.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by simne on Friday April 22, 2022 @08:35AM (#31120856)
> Do you have any links to Korea or Japan hitting these insurmountable problems?

You remembered me talks, about how enhanced was Hong Kong, so they in 1990s built very high-speed internet for all.

But than I read wikipedia, and seen, Hong Kong have 6800 people per square kilometer (Germany 200, France 300, Ukraine 80, Russia less then 30).

Sure, if you have more than tenfold number of clients, you have much more possibilities to pay for expensive new technology.

But even for not poor western Europe, fiber technologies was too expensive for wide usage until mid 2000s.

Sure, backbones built on fiber from early 1990s, but backbones is not all internet, in reality 90% of resources spent on last mile. And as I said before, until late 2000s, only copper last mile was economically effective without Asian density. Also was possible fiber backbone, and wireless last mile, but air speed also very limited (should read expensive :) ).

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by 411111111111111 on Sunday April 24, 2022 @06:50AM (#31142846)
> But than I read wikipedia, and seen, Hong Kong have 6800 people per square kilometer (Germany 200, France 300, Ukraine 80, Russia less then 30).

Hong kong is essentially a city. You'd have to compare it with Munich (5k/km^2) in Germany or Paris (20k/km^2) in France to get equivalent numbers

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by simne on Sunday April 24, 2022 @08:02PM (#31149435)
I talked with colleagues in early 2000s, and they said, Paris central parts with high density was connected to broadband relatively early, but farther distribution was very slow, exact as I said.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:55PM (#31114446)
It's funny how openly corrupt German political party leaders always turn out to be, yet we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:00PM (#31114507)
Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US president). Sixteen years of Kohl and Merkel governments, respectively, paralyzed the country and hindered progress especially in the digital sector.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114527)
Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by hetspookjee on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:16PM (#31114657)
They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by prirun on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:58PM (#31116196)
Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years!

I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:11PM (#31116310)
Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by screenbreakout on Friday April 22, 2022 @12:10AM (#31118103)
There's what's called stochocracy or as Wiki calls it Sortition , but I think it needs to take the whole population into account, depending on where you live. and using a polling system where even 20% of yes to a proposal (be it local, regional or national) allows a limited trial to go ahead... as to the larger question as to why our political masters are out of touch..power corrupts, vested interests and economic predominance in a society based on printing money to pollute the planet and producing a processed lifestyle.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20gover....
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by ta123457864 on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:35PM (#31125088)
This is how ancient Athens did it, I think, and I agree we should give it a go.

Politicians are becoming like a caste, much too similar to each other and with very little exposure to real life.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by fmmlp on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:25PM (#31116417)
Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by wongarsu on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:15PM (#31115287)
Because the US government isn't captured by corporate interests? They rank significantly worse than Germany on the Global Corruption Index [1] and on the Corruption Perception Index [2]. In a global comparison both are great, but relative to each other the US really isn't an example Germany can look up to.

The chance of a government staying in government for a long time also means that governments have to think long-term because they might still be in government when the consequences come around. In the US system the optimal strategy is to do things that look good in the short term but backfire as soon as your term limit expires. That way you look good, and the next president (who's with near certainty from the opposition party) looks bad.

I'd be more in favor of passing an age limit, but I'm well aware that that has no chance of happening.

1: https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/

2: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by MomoXenosaga on Thursday April 21, 2022 @09:37PM (#31117288)
To be fair the US is not actually corrupt. They have very legally and democratically signed over the state to corporations.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by trasz on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:53AM (#31119286)
It’s still corruption, just legal and formalized.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JamisonM on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:15PM (#31117490)
People always be linking to the Corruption Perception Index, there may be no worse resource for assessing actual corruption: "The CPI scores and ranks countries/territories based on how corrupt a country’s public sector is perceived to be by experts and business executives."

Singapore's consistent ranking near the top is always hilarious to me!

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by arlort on Friday April 22, 2022 @02:02AM (#31118694)
Yes, and in other aspects having a stable leadership for long (and it's not like we're talking about eons, it's 4 elections) greatly benefited Germany

People elected them and their party, their party had chosen them for the position. It's not like they forced anyone to put them there.

Term limits in democracies make very little sense when they affect a President or other directly elected positions of great personal power

They make no sense for chancellors or prime ministers who in any case are going to mostly be controlled by the parliament

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by inglor_cz on Friday April 22, 2022 @02:57AM (#31119026)
I disagree on the term limit topic.

Democracies benefit from change. Indeed I would argue that cadre change is their kill app. But it must be happening.

The same top politician will employ the same ministers, consultants etc., thus slowly creating an ossifying structure that aggregates a lot of mistakes of the same type. It is a process that reminds me of inbreeding in biology. Small pathologies slowly become more pronounced.

As we live longer and longer, we run into a risk that our Senates etc. will turn into gerontocracies of 80+ year old people and that a typical intern will be fifty.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by moffkalast on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:20PM (#31115334)
It's still the same party in charge, it's not like much would change in that case. But yes, every bit helps.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cjbgkagh on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:18PM (#31114681)
Germans are really good at Public Relations (PR) but people don’t think they are, which helps them be good at PR.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by lampenrad on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:21PM (#31115339)
That is not the case. Otherwise, with regards to the war in Ukraine, Germany wouldn’t get this singled out when it comes to criticism.

In fact, one of the biggest domestic criticisms of the government right now is their terrible communication strategy.

English is the lingua franca and as such Anglo media has an incredible amount of power in shaping opinions in the West.

And frankly, the reporting, particularly from Anglo and Eastern European media, has had a heavy anti-German bias for weeks now. (Up from the usual moderate bias)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:33PM (#31115454)
I don't think this contradicts their point... Others can be more powerful, but most of the time those more powerful aren't attacking them. The rest of the time Germany's PR is good and working...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cjbgkagh on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:45AM (#31119258)
I would measure the efficacy of PR as the difference between perception and reality. The amount people are disappointed by revelations demonstrates the extent of that difference. Germany has always been like this and the disappointments are recent. I would say that the Anglo-sphere has better PR, it is an essential part of maintaining an empire, but people tend to know that the Anglo-sphere is highly active in PR so it comes as less of a surprise.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:58PM (#31114480)
> we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country

It’s by and large not, and to the degree it is, it’s open and not insidious. The kind of corruption that kills economies is the insidious type. (And the stealy variety.)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by radicaldreamer on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:40PM (#31114893)
I disagree, VW/Mercedes emissions scandals and Wirecard (particularly the behavior of BaFin, which was defending wirecard and harassing journalists for years) point to entrenched corruption.

Nobody in government or industry has really been prosecuted for either (some Wirecard folks are on the run).

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by imtringued on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#31114865)
It's a corrupt country but its economy is big enough that it can shoulder a parasite or a dozen. Developing countries and eastern Europe does not have this luxury.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#31114920)
Hmm, that's plausible. I'd still like to see someone try to measure that though. Interesting thought.

I'm not sure Germany isn't experiencing negative effects from this though. Like the Gazprom thing, for example, this broadband thing, maybe even the nuclear thing?

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by lampenrad on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:36PM (#31115487)
If Germany is a "corrupt country", than what‘s the rest of Europe?: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_pub...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:44PM (#31116558)
You're begging the question. My original point is that it's very surprising that Germany gets these ratings despite them being openly corrupt.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by foobarian on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:17PM (#31114673)
It's because they do even their corruption by the book, so it seems legit.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by alex_young on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:59PM (#31114498)
That was 40 years ago. Do you think they are still as corrupt?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by Matt3o12_ on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114531)
Yea there are many examples of high level corruption in the german government (and most western governments actually, including the US). A recent example is the mask scandal with CDU/CSU (same party) https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-viola...

You will not find much local corruption though, which is what most people think of when they hear corrupt countries. Local corruption is paying of a cop, judge, that kind of stuff. I’m sure it also happens in Germany, but that is very very rare.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:47PM (#31115587)
My experience, having German family: Germans in general are very much about propriety and doing things correctly and are often very harsh if you step outside this line.

So to be corrupt in Germany, and places like it, is to do the "corrupt" thing "correctly" -- e.g. in some structural fashion tied to political parties, long term associations, business connections, etc. that have the appearance of being practical, official, and "right."

A friend of mine who came from Iran originally had a comment like this about western countries corruption vs "third world" or "second world" corruption:

In Iran or etc. corruption is almost more democratic, because it means as a regular layperson you can bribe some local official to make something go your way. It's not just, it's not fair, it's ugly, but it's "accessible" if you have some spare cash.

But in the west, corruption is for the super rich and the connected at a much higher level. e.g. you can't bribe a zoning official so you can build an addition or a shed, but if you're powerful enough you can control a political party and prevent it from investigating your company, have it enact some preferential laws, or stop it from some raising some tax.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:11PM (#31115802)
Yeah, I tried to explain this to someone about Portugal too... they didn't get it. If the system is completely broken and going to kill you in a "non-corrupt" country, there's nothing you can do about it as someone who's not a megacapitalist.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114522)
Yes - and Covid even accelerated this by enabling shady deals for the delivery of overpriced masks by CDU/CSU politicians. There's even a Wikipedia article about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:01PM (#31114515)
Did you miss the last 40 years? Where's Gerhard Schröder work now?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by ta123457864 on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:38PM (#31125157)
Why do you expect that corruption decreases over time?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:01PM (#31114516)
Ahem. Cum-Ex
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by jjtheblunt on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:56PM (#31115068)
maybe because they get exposed, then fail re-election
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by Barrin92 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:15PM (#31114649)
Because corruption as an issue is overrated or wrongly defined. South Korea and Japan are mentioned in the article as exemplary countries when it comes to internet speed and infrastructure but both have virtually no dividing line between private conglomerates (Chaebol and Keiretsu respectively) and public administration. The same is true in Germany, but with few exceptions that kind of intersection doesn't matter because governance is by and large effective, which beats clean.

In fact this kind of conglomeration between the public and private sector is why they get things done, compared to the vetocratic nature of other countries.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by RicoElectrico on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#31114864)
German corruption indirectly affects the stability of the European Union, as they with France are de-facto most important players now. In the "new EU" countries, whatever Germany does wrong or hypocritical will surely be weaponized by euro-skeptics.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JamisonM on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:23PM (#31117540)
If my recollections are accurate South Korea had a lot of fibre laid by power companies that turned out to be useful for internet precisely because it was a corruption situation where there was an infinite budget and no oversight and they ran optical lines for power meters for no good reason and it turned out to be a win in the end.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by pyuser583 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:18PM (#31115313)
Both countries have reputations for terrible “big business style” corruption. And really good infrastructure.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114529)
Wasn? Bananen Republik Deutschland!
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by riedel on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:12PM (#31114628)
Actually the cited article rather explains that the move to copper was also heavily motivated to support cable television which allowed to stream more right leaning media to households. In the end it is mostly about power not necessarily corruption.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by fweimer on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#31114860)
There were some fairly large fiber rollouts in the late 80s/early 90s (OPAL, Optische Anschlußleitung). No copper meant it was impossible to deploy DSL, and available optical networking technology wasn't cost-effective during the first years of DSL rollout. Rumor has it that the old OPAL infrastructure can be used for GPON today, but that became available only much later. For many years, your best hope as an OPAL customer was that the incumbent eventually deployed copper.

I'm not sure if OPAL deployment at a much larger scale would have created a sufficiently large market for optical networking equipment and bring down prices much earlier. Probably the number of impacted OPAL customers would simply have been larger.

(The copper cable mentioned in the article is actually TV broadband cable, and that had much less coverage than the copper phone lines eventually repurposed for DSL.)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by pankajdoharey on Friday April 22, 2022 @07:27AM (#31120338)
Personal Profits and Kick Backs, isnt that the story everywhere? Democracies need to pass specific laws to curtail the powers of technically illiterate politicians when it comes to making decisions about technology. Perhaps there should be laws on how only Domain experts could make laws about certain field and the minimum requirement to become a politician should be that one needs to be a domain expert. And yes not a domain expert in Humanities, Social Sciences , Arts.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by throwmeariver1 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @09:25PM (#31117225)
It was our luck google „Opalghetto“ and you know what the Telekom tried with fiber…
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by WalterBright on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:40PM (#31116067)
All politicians are corrupt like that. Another reason why socialism is inefficient and uncompetitive.