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Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:55PM (#31114446)
It's funny how openly corrupt German political party leaders always turn out to be, yet we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:00PM (#31114507)
Maybe a first step to discourage this would be to restrict the time the chancellor or any minister can be in office to two election periods (like the US president). Sixteen years of Kohl and Merkel governments, respectively, paralyzed the country and hindered progress especially in the digital sector.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114527)
Or just ban public officials from holding stock and from taking on jobs at state clients...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by hetspookjee on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:16PM (#31114657)
They'll find a way, of that you can be sure. I think restricting the term is the only way possible to limit corruption in that regard.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by prirun on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:58PM (#31116196)
Lottery elections: put people in office like jury duty. You don't want to be President? Too bad! You're qualified, have a good background (whatever that is), people have vouched for your character, so ... you're it for 4 years!

I'd trust my next door neighbor to be President more than someone who actually wants to be President.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:11PM (#31116310)
Liquid democracy. You can assign to your vote to anyone and reclaim it at any time for any reason. "Representatives" would just be people who a lot of people temporarily assigned their votes to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by screenbreakout on Friday April 22, 2022 @12:10AM (#31118103)
There's what's called stochocracy or as Wiki calls it Sortition , but I think it needs to take the whole population into account, depending on where you live. and using a polling system where even 20% of yes to a proposal (be it local, regional or national) allows a limited trial to go ahead... as to the larger question as to why our political masters are out of touch..power corrupts, vested interests and economic predominance in a society based on printing money to pollute the planet and producing a processed lifestyle.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#:~:text=In%20gover....
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by ta123457864 on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:35PM (#31125088)
This is how ancient Athens did it, I think, and I agree we should give it a go.

Politicians are becoming like a caste, much too similar to each other and with very little exposure to real life.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by fmmlp on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:25PM (#31116417)
Yes, Borges style: don't allow anyone who wants to be president to be it.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by wongarsu on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:15PM (#31115287)
Because the US government isn't captured by corporate interests? They rank significantly worse than Germany on the Global Corruption Index [1] and on the Corruption Perception Index [2]. In a global comparison both are great, but relative to each other the US really isn't an example Germany can look up to.

The chance of a government staying in government for a long time also means that governments have to think long-term because they might still be in government when the consequences come around. In the US system the optimal strategy is to do things that look good in the short term but backfire as soon as your term limit expires. That way you look good, and the next president (who's with near certainty from the opposition party) looks bad.

I'd be more in favor of passing an age limit, but I'm well aware that that has no chance of happening.

1: https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/

2: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by MomoXenosaga on Thursday April 21, 2022 @09:37PM (#31117288)
To be fair the US is not actually corrupt. They have very legally and democratically signed over the state to corporations.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by trasz on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:53AM (#31119286)
It’s still corruption, just legal and formalized.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JamisonM on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:15PM (#31117490)
People always be linking to the Corruption Perception Index, there may be no worse resource for assessing actual corruption: "The CPI scores and ranks countries/territories based on how corrupt a country’s public sector is perceived to be by experts and business executives."

Singapore's consistent ranking near the top is always hilarious to me!

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by arlort on Friday April 22, 2022 @02:02AM (#31118694)
Yes, and in other aspects having a stable leadership for long (and it's not like we're talking about eons, it's 4 elections) greatly benefited Germany

People elected them and their party, their party had chosen them for the position. It's not like they forced anyone to put them there.

Term limits in democracies make very little sense when they affect a President or other directly elected positions of great personal power

They make no sense for chancellors or prime ministers who in any case are going to mostly be controlled by the parliament

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by inglor_cz on Friday April 22, 2022 @02:57AM (#31119026)
I disagree on the term limit topic.

Democracies benefit from change. Indeed I would argue that cadre change is their kill app. But it must be happening.

The same top politician will employ the same ministers, consultants etc., thus slowly creating an ossifying structure that aggregates a lot of mistakes of the same type. It is a process that reminds me of inbreeding in biology. Small pathologies slowly become more pronounced.

As we live longer and longer, we run into a risk that our Senates etc. will turn into gerontocracies of 80+ year old people and that a typical intern will be fifty.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by moffkalast on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:20PM (#31115334)
It's still the same party in charge, it's not like much would change in that case. But yes, every bit helps.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cjbgkagh on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:18PM (#31114681)
Germans are really good at Public Relations (PR) but people don’t think they are, which helps them be good at PR.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by lampenrad on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:21PM (#31115339)
That is not the case. Otherwise, with regards to the war in Ukraine, Germany wouldn’t get this singled out when it comes to criticism.

In fact, one of the biggest domestic criticisms of the government right now is their terrible communication strategy.

English is the lingua franca and as such Anglo media has an incredible amount of power in shaping opinions in the West.

And frankly, the reporting, particularly from Anglo and Eastern European media, has had a heavy anti-German bias for weeks now. (Up from the usual moderate bias)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:33PM (#31115454)
I don't think this contradicts their point... Others can be more powerful, but most of the time those more powerful aren't attacking them. The rest of the time Germany's PR is good and working...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cjbgkagh on Friday April 22, 2022 @03:45AM (#31119258)
I would measure the efficacy of PR as the difference between perception and reality. The amount people are disappointed by revelations demonstrates the extent of that difference. Germany has always been like this and the disappointments are recent. I would say that the Anglo-sphere has better PR, it is an essential part of maintaining an empire, but people tend to know that the Anglo-sphere is highly active in PR so it comes as less of a surprise.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:58PM (#31114480)
> we still don't consider it to be a corrupt country

It’s by and large not, and to the degree it is, it’s open and not insidious. The kind of corruption that kills economies is the insidious type. (And the stealy variety.)

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by radicaldreamer on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:40PM (#31114893)
I disagree, VW/Mercedes emissions scandals and Wirecard (particularly the behavior of BaFin, which was defending wirecard and harassing journalists for years) point to entrenched corruption.

Nobody in government or industry has really been prosecuted for either (some Wirecard folks are on the run).

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by imtringued on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#31114865)
It's a corrupt country but its economy is big enough that it can shoulder a parasite or a dozen. Developing countries and eastern Europe does not have this luxury.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#31114920)
Hmm, that's plausible. I'd still like to see someone try to measure that though. Interesting thought.

I'm not sure Germany isn't experiencing negative effects from this though. Like the Gazprom thing, for example, this broadband thing, maybe even the nuclear thing?

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by lampenrad on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:36PM (#31115487)
If Germany is a "corrupt country", than what‘s the rest of Europe?: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/koyyv5/european_pub...
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:44PM (#31116558)
You're begging the question. My original point is that it's very surprising that Germany gets these ratings despite them being openly corrupt.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by foobarian on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:17PM (#31114673)
It's because they do even their corruption by the book, so it seems legit.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by alex_young on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:59PM (#31114498)
That was 40 years ago. Do you think they are still as corrupt?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by Matt3o12_ on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114531)
Yea there are many examples of high level corruption in the german government (and most western governments actually, including the US). A recent example is the mask scandal with CDU/CSU (same party) https://www.dw.com/en/german-mask-scandal-unforgivable-viola...

You will not find much local corruption though, which is what most people think of when they hear corrupt countries. Local corruption is paying of a cop, judge, that kind of stuff. I’m sure it also happens in Germany, but that is very very rare.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by cmrdporcupine on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:47PM (#31115587)
My experience, having German family: Germans in general are very much about propriety and doing things correctly and are often very harsh if you step outside this line.

So to be corrupt in Germany, and places like it, is to do the "corrupt" thing "correctly" -- e.g. in some structural fashion tied to political parties, long term associations, business connections, etc. that have the appearance of being practical, official, and "right."

A friend of mine who came from Iran originally had a comment like this about western countries corruption vs "third world" or "second world" corruption:

In Iran or etc. corruption is almost more democratic, because it means as a regular layperson you can bribe some local official to make something go your way. It's not just, it's not fair, it's ugly, but it's "accessible" if you have some spare cash.

But in the west, corruption is for the super rich and the connected at a much higher level. e.g. you can't bribe a zoning official so you can build an addition or a shed, but if you're powerful enough you can control a political party and prevent it from investigating your company, have it enact some preferential laws, or stop it from some raising some tax.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:11PM (#31115802)
Yeah, I tried to explain this to someone about Portugal too... they didn't get it. If the system is completely broken and going to kill you in a "non-corrupt" country, there's nothing you can do about it as someone who's not a megacapitalist.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by johndoe0815 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114522)
Yes - and Covid even accelerated this by enabling shady deals for the delivery of overpriced masks by CDU/CSU politicians. There's even a Wikipedia article about this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffäre
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by guerrilla on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:01PM (#31114515)
Did you miss the last 40 years? Where's Gerhard Schröder work now?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by ta123457864 on Friday April 22, 2022 @01:38PM (#31125157)
Why do you expect that corruption decreases over time?
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:01PM (#31114516)
Ahem. Cum-Ex
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by jjtheblunt on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:56PM (#31115068)
maybe because they get exposed, then fail re-election
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by Barrin92 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:15PM (#31114649)
Because corruption as an issue is overrated or wrongly defined. South Korea and Japan are mentioned in the article as exemplary countries when it comes to internet speed and infrastructure but both have virtually no dividing line between private conglomerates (Chaebol and Keiretsu respectively) and public administration. The same is true in Germany, but with few exceptions that kind of intersection doesn't matter because governance is by and large effective, which beats clean.

In fact this kind of conglomeration between the public and private sector is why they get things done, compared to the vetocratic nature of other countries.

Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by RicoElectrico on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:37PM (#31114864)
German corruption indirectly affects the stability of the European Union, as they with France are de-facto most important players now. In the "new EU" countries, whatever Germany does wrong or hypocritical will surely be weaponized by euro-skeptics.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by JamisonM on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:23PM (#31117540)
If my recollections are accurate South Korea had a lot of fibre laid by power companies that turned out to be useful for internet precisely because it was a corruption situation where there was an infinite budget and no oversight and they ran optical lines for power meters for no good reason and it turned out to be a win in the end.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by pyuser583 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:18PM (#31115313)
Both countries have reputations for terrible “big business style” corruption. And really good infrastructure.
Re:Thatcher killed the UK’s superfast broadband before it ev... by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:02PM (#31114529)
Wasn? Bananen Republik Deutschland!