The main advantage of India for me personally is a sense of community that I felt when I went back there after 8 years. Everyone in the society (i.e: I'd say equivalent to a street or a suburb) knows you and greets you. You go to the temple in the morning, and pickup some snacks along the way. In the evening, people go out to eat, meet their relatives, etc.

There are pros and cons of this sense of community as well, people can be nosy. However, coming back from India recently, I felt pretty depressed and alone. In North America, everyone seems like a busy worker bee that is working all the time. On the weekend, the bees explore a little bit more. Go hiking, or explore their other hobbies. But the sense of aloneness is something I never knew I had until I went back to India.

Aside: This was my first trip back after having done a few when I was young and hating those since I was just stuck in the house as a YA and had limited internet access. The country, the people, have come far from that and as an adult I have all the freedom to do whatever the fk I want too.

> But the sense of aloneness is something I never knew I had until I went back to India.

I only lived in Bangladesh until age 5, and have spent nearly my whole life in America, but this sense of loneliness hit me really hard when I had my own kids. I remember being surrounded by aunties and cousins at their age, and my kids aren’t. Just in the last year we had a critical mass of neighborhood kids move in, but for my oldest, it was a very solitary childhood until age 8 or so.

Good that you like this but I honestly don’t like that. This is just a bunch of people saying hello. They’re no more helpful in the case of urgency than the average American you don’t know the name of. Thus what remains is only pervasive gossip. When people do unfathomable things like forcing marriages within caste this community “camaraderie” is what they use as the reason: “what will SOCIETY think of us?” You mean the jobless woman three doors down? I’d much rather live where no one knows or judges with prejudice my life choices.

This doesn’t just happen in india but also in the states where there are “tight knit communities”. Aka small church focused towns. Jobless people knowing each other seems like one of the fundamental problems hindering human freedom to me.

That's fair. So the whole people greeting you and saying hello, sounds a bit more like an overstatement. Here, I was speaking more to the fact that you can have a better social life there in general. Most NRI (non-residential Indians) that were born in India, will have a larger extended family back home. This brings a lot more family events, gatherings, and I am sure, drama; something you can maneuver around I think.

The whole what will SOCIETY think of us, I think it really varies depending on what parts of India you are in. At least in India, cultures vary greatly even from city to city. I have heard very very progressive things happening in India, and also very regressive things. It just depends on where you are and how much f*ks you give personally. Who cares what a lady three doors down thinks? Let them think what they want.

I definitely see your side of this though, as that was my perspective before. Mine is a bit different at the moment, but might change in the future.

> sense of aloneness

I think this is the biggest difference - economic differences are quite large in nominal terms but life always goes on, there's going to be food on the table and roof over your head.

Coming from East Asia a lot of my friends are not used to this - but I find myself enjoying the loneliness of it all - being on a boat in the middle of the lake at the middle of the night with no one around you in 2 miles radius is a blessing.

For a similar reason, I never liked New York, SF or LA in the US.

> Sure you’re saying H1B restricts but does it really?

Given the author's impressive credentials and ambitious tone, he would be a fool to choose to wait 195 years [1] for a green card.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2021/03/01/immig...

There are better visa options for more skilled workers. Like the O1, or if you’re smart the L1 for international orgs with some stint outside. Or you can even start a company in a H1B. Or if you did make a lot of money an EB5. The list is long.

Let us say this young author has a master's degree from MIT and has worked a few years on an H1B at Tesla. But he does not have a PhD and does not publish research. And he is a very good engineer but does not care for management work. And he does not have a couple of million lying around to splurge on an EB5 visa. So his visa category will be 'EB2' and his wait time for a green card will be more than 100 years.

Now let us say he has an engineer friend who was born in Bolivia, received a bachelor's from Arizona State University, and works on an H1B at Office Depot. A perfectly adequate employee with a perfectly good background. His visa category will most likely be 'EB3' and his wait time for a green card will be 18 months.

The 'better visa options' you mention are in practice applicable only for a small minority of workers (certain PhDs, the very wealthy, expat managers etc).

The vast majority like this author find themselves strangely waiting 100+ years for a green card while their colleagues with very similar backgrounds from virtually any other country receive it in a year or two.

I am in the exact same category as OP , and there are options. Yes they are annoying. But so is Indian politics and bureaucracy. I view them as equally annoying.

This "there are options" bit does not help most of the million people stuck waiting 100+ years for the same immigration that their equally qualified colleagues complete in 18 months.

The false equivalence of a 100+ year wait with some vague "Indian politics and bureaucracy" is not relevant. "Romanian politics and bureaucracy" and "Cuban politics and bureaucracy" may be worse than "Indian politics and bureaucracy", but that is not at discussion here. What matters is that Romanian and Cuban H1Bs have an 18 month green card wait time.

And the author clearly considers this unfair process more than "annoying". To him, it is perhaps closer to humiliating and debilitating, which is partly why he has chosen to put up with it no longer.

> To him, it is perhaps closer to humiliating and debilitating

Exactly. Considering what I went through already, I can't even think of spending the next couple of years like that hoping I will get GC one day. If I go through again even half of what I went through already, the stress alone will kill me soon. I already lost all my memory - I don't remember anything about my past, no memory of my childhood, parents, school. What I went through probably shortened my life by 10 years. And I am worried if I will get dementia because of that.

Its really disappointing that people are using his gender and caste as excuses for dismissing whatever he went through.

How often will one have to deal with Indian bureaucracy? Its very rare. Being on the GC backlog means I always have to deal with the bureaucracy and at the mercy of my employer. It simply takes away any hope I have, I will always be on the h1b leash. Considering what I went through the last couple of years, I simply don't have the courage to deal with h1b any more. If I could find a job in India, I will pack up this instant.

> and there are options

care to cite a few specific ones when one doesn't have a PhD, nor have a few million lying around nor intend to go in management?

> Yes they are annoying. But so is Indian politics and bureaucracy. I view them as equally annoying.

Will cite your own words from the top comment in this thread about annoyance of those options - "only naive people have shrugged it off to my face till now"

I have now been living in the happiest country in the world for more than a decade.

As an Indian kid growing up on Cartoon Network, I was quite envious of western kids with skateboards and actual skate parks, tons of toys, gizmos and game consoles.

Once you start knowing people well, they start opening up about their past and I have come to realise 3 out 4 of them, pretty decent well educated people have had to struggle with alcoholic/abusive/loveless parents, addictions of their own, depression.

I just realised even though things were pretty bad in terms safety (traffic), sanitation, health or access to simple things like telephones or material comforts, most "middle class" Indians grew up in pretty safe social settings.

Somethings like safety has certainly improved substantially, but certainly some like alcoholism has grown exponentially bad.

I agree things aren't the best and you make several valid points. However, seems to me that you are in the camp who would rather shit on their own country instead of finding ways to make things better for everyone. You too are a part of the privileged class at this moment - sitting in the US (presumably).

Shit on your own country? What does that even mean? The place you were born by chance? Now you have to “own” it as an identity? Do you have the same beliefs about government? religion? caste? race? I suggest you try freeing yourself of such burden.

Ah. You fell for the trap. The good old “you mean more than you said just because you were critical of some aspects of the country”. The parent made your argument a straw man, beat it down in his mind, and made you angry.

I know with 100% certainty that unless I go fight for something like ISIS, India will take me back without any problems. No one else will do that. That's where the country of birth becomes important for me.

> I know with 100% certainty that unless I go fight for something like ISIS, India will take me back without any problems. No one else will do that.

It's going off-topic now for the thread, but since you mentioned it: Some European countries do just that.

https://www.dw.com/en/over-100-islamic-state-fighters-return...

> Authorities believe that 1,060 IS fighters left Germany for Syria or Iraq, of which a third have since returned, the Interior Ministry said. Germany is taking a "holistic approach" in dealing with ex-jihadi fighters, including deradicalization and reintegration.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55387991

> Germany and Finland have repatriated five women and 18 children from Syrian camps housing suspected family members of Islamic State (IS) militants.

.

Incidentally, on the thread topic, I too turned my back on the US and returned to Germany in 2004 after about 8 years and with no visa or job trouble and a good outlook. Back to Germany, in my case, and also after thinking about the bigger picture. I'm a co-founder of a small software company here now. Healthcare, politics (so divisive, and divided, here in Germany it's so much more mild except for the far-right Russia-friendly AfD party), housing costs. Well, the latter is really bad now in Germany too but the rest remains good.

In general the idea of removing somebody's citizenship for any reason is highly problematic, as it leads to the possibility of a get-out clause around the inalienable rights that citizens are supposed to have.

I think in the mentioned cases, and maybe in similar ones I heard of before, the alternative was not to revoke citizenship, but to let them rot in a foreign jail.

Do an exercise for me since you have freed yourself from the burden of natural identity. Go to a foreign nation and destroy your password.

It will teach you a practical lesson in natural identity. Do make sure to go to a nation that you think is the greatest nation in human lifetime.

I think of myself as the equivalent of an atheist when it comes to all kinds of identities: national, linguistic, religious, caste, etc.

It behooves us to call out shitty stuff just as it behooves us to work towards bettering our surroundings in increasingly larger circles.

passport not password.

Presumed wrong. I don’t comment on the state of affairs without having been back. Again I want to contribute to humanity and this planet, I don’t pledge allegiance to a line drawn by dipshits 70 years back.

You don't want to indentify as an Indian or a person of Indian origin. Yet you couldn't keep yourself from commenting on this thread.

> If you are a guy (or worse a girl) who insists it’s not that bad in india, then you grew up with extreme privilege or are extremely clueless about realities of life in this country.

What kind of argument is this even? "If you disagree with me, you're clueless"?

There's definitely some "I'll shit on my birth country to win Western approval" energy here..

> There's definitely some "I'll shit on my birth country to win Western approval" energy here..

Stop projecting.

How exactly are you contributing to humanity and this planet? Can you practically have no allegiance to any country or be citizen of no country?

Post-nationalism/transnationalism FTW

> Again I want to contribute to humanity and this planet,

I assume you're going to travel on a "humanity" passport...? Or are you going to eat some crow and "pledge allegiance" to some country?

Just because he recognizes the absurdities of jingoistic tribalism across arbitrary longitudinal lines doesn't mean that he's unaware of the unfortunate reality of the world we live in.

> my partner said she will never bring a girl child up in india

My wife also has a similar opinion - that being a woman in India is very hard. Yet, she wants to go back to India more than me.

There are definite advantages in moving to India or many other third world countries, there is so much scope and possibly, and the untapped markets can be huge opportunities.

Also the same amount of money goes a long way in India than in US. Rents, medical costs, etc are way cheaper.

I think about this for another country (islands type), it would be beautiful but also I would lose the things here in the US I take for granted. Don't have to worry about having parasites from food. My 1 day Amazon shipping (sorry I'm thinking more electronics sourcing eg. Digikey). The other thing too is software is not valued there...you make the same amount or less in construction which is interesting unless it's work coming externally from another country. Also the risk of less police... I have this fear if I go there I won't be able to return to the US ha. If you had online income (passive) that would be nice. I knew a person that lived on a boat/had weapons, street smart kind of person unlike me.

the golden age of startups in india has already started to shutter. It’s still a hot market but all the Low hanging fruits are already done for. Anyone thinking the market here is somehow easier than in the US is absolutely naive.

I hesitate saying that they're third world.

Third world is literally about affiliation or lack of to the erstwhile two super powers. Ukraine war has reshown that India is indeed third world.

I had not considered that, thanks for giving me something to learn about.

I have mixed feelings about India.

It has lot of potential but at the end of the day it’s corrupt to the core, cities are hyper polluted and the infrastructure is abysmal(Although better than two decades ago).

I also didn’t like it that the government supports Russia.

well to be fair russia supported india in the war of 1971

My daughter goes to elementary school in Bay Area. She was cursed and told "Go home and tell you mother m**f** like this *" with obscene gestures. Based on our experience such rude, obscene and unhealthy behavior isn't uncommon. In addition, adults and kids are exposed to all shitty and violent content through streaming platforms which is also impacting their behavior.

What do you also think about safety with so much of gun violence and abuse going on in USA?

In our experience, private schools in India are much better and probably safer for kids. They offer all-round learning experience (books/studies, sports, cultural experience etc.) and hot fresh meals as well. It is expensive and hence it is not commonly available to all kids, but I don't think such school experience is available in USA as well (especially cold and frozen food given in schools).

While I agree about some of your points related to safety, pollution, and overall civic sense, I don't think it living in US is somehow better. May be you are living in USA with extreme privilege and/or with narrow vision and mindset. :)

I agree with last paragraph, while maybe not very relevant for young single male, certainly very relevant who plans to settle down.

But honestly choosing between US and India to raise kid is choosing between two very bad options and there are more options in world, someone with IT background shouldn't have many issues to move to Europe which would be certainly better option long term raising the family, but maybe slightly worse career wise.

I’d never raise my kids in someone else’s ethnostate. In America my kids are unquestioningly accepted as American even in random rural parts of the country. Meanwhile in say Germany there are many second generation Turkish people who still don’t really feel German; similar things about Muslim immigrants to France, etc.

As a desi, US and India are much better to raise kids compared to the European countries (well, except maybe for UK). It is easy to become an American within a few days of landing here. But I will never become French even after spending years or decades in France. Same goes with Germany, Italy, Norway, Poland or other places. European countries are nation states and while that may work out well for their citizens, it is a big hindrance to assimilate immigrants.

I don't understand, I am foreigner not living in my home country and I don't really understand why I should care that I will be never pure German/French/whatever. If I spoke fluently local language I can pretend I am local (since I am white) and locals born there wouldn't be able to spot it, but I would still know it anyway, so what's the point even pretending if you are not discriminated for being different?

Also France and Germany are quite multicultural, so I don't see how it's any different becoming French or German vs American or Brit in general. It just comes down to you being Indian and probably only country having large Indian population in Europe being UK, so they can think you was already born there and consider you local. Black people could already pass also for French, Turks for Germans, but yeah specifically Indians will stand out everywhere except UK as not being born there, but just because you stand out it doesn't make your life worse.

Other people stand out for other reasons than color of their skin anyway even if they are completely local and still live in their countries without moving to country where people like them stand out less. By your logic very tall people should move to Netherland, dwarfs should move to some dwarf colonies etc. so they won't stand out for being different, your skin color is just another thing to stand out.

This guy is the Enlightened One. He's seen it all to the core: all the rotten things, everything.