News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by TameAntelope on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:29AM (#30830851)
I agree with the content of the article, but I don’t agree with the premise that these things aren’t also “work”.

Engineers tend to obsess over, “focused work” like it’s the only way to be productive, and anything that’s not “focused work” is wasted time. That is a surefire way to burn out.

Instead, finding ways to “riff” on your job by doing work with longer time horizons of payoff keeps your job fun.

It’s all “work”. Maybe the title ought to be, “Stop obsessing over focused work.”

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by rconti on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:57AM (#30831866)
For me, I think it was related to conflating my value as am employee to being able to efficiently and effectively complete tasks to a high standard in a short amount of time. It felt like if I wasn't producing enough tangible results fast enough, I wasn't doing a "good enough job". It didn't really matter if it was a day/week/month where I was absolutely crushing it, or a time period where I was having a hard time focusing; the end goal was the same. The internal satisfaction, if you can call it that, was accomplishing tasks. It wasn't (usually) to the point of overwork or burnout.

But the problem was, I never considered my own growth. It never felt like a good use of time to take on more challenging projects because I wouldn't get the same sense of accomplishment. It would be hard, I wouldn't have much to show for myself for a few weeks, and so on.

Obviously this is all subconscious, you don't realize you're choosing things you're good at, or an expert on. Expertise feels nice! And, to be fair, not everyone's employers give them the freedom to choose/learn/grow that many of us enjoy.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by tunnuz on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:30PM (#30834575)
This is very relatable to me. Since you’re using the past tense, would you be happy to share what helped you get out of that mindset?
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by rconti on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#30842919)
Still working on it! I'd say the biggie was finding myself at a not-quite-FAANG-tier SV company where suddenly I'm surrounded by people who are all amazing. Where you have to prove your accomplishments to get promoted rather than just being handed promotions because you're "good at your job". Some mentorship. Some reading. Being encouraged to look farther down the road (which implies it's okay to not 'get things done' between standups). Honestly, lots of self-reflection and looking around. FWIW I'd say I have about 25 years in the industry, so, it didn't come to me quickly or early.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Qub3d on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:55PM (#30832622)
I think the article author agrees with you. That's why they put 'work' in quotes.

It is useful for their argument to split 'work' and 'not work' along these lines because they are trying to reach readers that honestly do believe that any time not actively writing code for a jira ticket isn't work.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:56AM (#30831126)
Well, the bosses usually only care about work the helps produce value. They might like the fact that you know some new tech that they can use in their latest assignment, but they weren't giving you credit while you were learning it the year before just for fun.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by TameAntelope on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:18AM (#30831399)
"Learn about new tech" is only one of a great many other things.

Cultivating your relationships professionally is also "work", as is talking to your customers, reviewing and discussing code, writing about and showing others what you've built, keeping your resume and interview skills sharp, staring up at the ceiling and thinking about work, etc.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:21AM (#30831430)
Yeah, and most of that similarly doesn't count when it's time for the chips to fall.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by haliskerbas on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:26AM (#30831516)
I wonder if the same is true for other professions as well? Athletes must have to design their entire lives around a few minutes of competition. Surgeons need to train for years, and all that is evaluated is the patient outcome in the operating room. Lawyers need to train, study, and prepare, and only the court outcome matters.

Maybe this is an unfair parallel, but I cannot see why.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by TameAntelope on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:31AM (#30831571)
Very few lawyers, proportionally, ever enter a courtroom. The vast majority of "lawyer" work never sees a courtroom at all.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:01PM (#30831920)
Maybe that is a fair comparison for IT as a profit center. If seems that wouldn't work so well for IT as a cost center.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by TameAntelope on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:28AM (#30831547)
My point is it absolutely does "count"; what your boss values is not what's best for your career. That's extremely short-term thinking.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:02PM (#30833536)
I guess I've only ever had a job and never a career.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by toomuchtodo on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:06AM (#30831235)
Find better bosses and employers. They are out there.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by commandlinefan on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:28AM (#30831535)
I've had great bosses, all the way up the chain... but they were all held captive to the "efficiency" measures of the time-tracking system. Everywhere I've ever worked has implemented a methodology that, regardless of what they called it (XP, Scrum, Kanban, whatever) boiled down to: write down everything you're going to do, write down how long it's going to take, and I'm going to measure how accurately you predicted how long it was going to take. And then they start clamping down on the "what you're going to do" part and make sure that everything you're "going to do" aligns with the business goals (that is, has a direct, immediate path to more money). Obviously reading an entire book would never fly under this regime.

It's doubly frustrating because it's always there, and drives so much inefficiency _in the name of_ efficiency.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by PragmaticPulp on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:37AM (#30831646)
> but they were all held captive to the "efficiency" measures of the time-tracking system

Were you working at an agency or consultancy that billed hours to clients?

I've never seen a good engineering organization use time tracking software on their engineers.

I'd go so far as to take it as a major negative sign against the company if your time is being tracked like that. Exceptions of course to any business that is billing hours, which obviously must be tracked. However, even those organizations are smart enough to know that writing code isn't the only productive activity.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by cardosof on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:57PM (#30832660)
Not parent poster but I've seen more and more startups setting up their jiras with whatever the folks who invented "safe" (scaled agile framework) say, while obsessing over measuring and predicting delivery metrics, all in order to have hard data to backup roadmap claims.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by wins32767 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:38AM (#30831649)
You're performing a local optimization rather than a global one. The reason predictability of delivery matters is that the rest of the company needs to do a bunch of work for the set of features you're delivering. Support needs training, marketing needs to send some emails, the sales team needs to update their demos, etc.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by aprdm on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:07PM (#30832792)
For what it's worth, I've been doing this for 10+ years, being a lead, a manager, and I never worked anywhere that tried to have "efficiency" measurements of devs.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by bnix on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @03:13PM (#30847066)
Agreed. Agile needs to be for developers first and foremost, not the management.

At least, in Scrum, from my experience so far: pointing is about measuring the uncertainty to delivery, but should healthily include learning, tech debt refactors,testing, q/a, even unexpected stuff like dev churn (i.e shoot under always, over estimate slightly).

But if individual performance is measured by velocity and points, you will just get devs badly cutting corners and gaming it while project & product will never get accurate measurements they can tie time based business outcomes to (especially as you get further out and short term corner cutting starts to rear it's head as brutal Tech Debt and time sinks)

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Consultant32452 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:41AM (#30831682)
I have different advice. Focus less on what your bosses want and more on what you want. Doing what your boss wants is a cost you pay, do as little of that as possible so that you can do the things that you want.

This is an exchange in a market. If Best Buy wants $500 for that new TV, would you go in and offer them $750 for it? If Wal-Mart will sell you the same TV for $400, consider going there isntead.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:12PM (#30832858)
I agree.

A fun side story is when I got a new manager a while back. In our first one-on-one, he told me that he has connections through the company and can use them to get me promoted to another team if I make him happy. I get that making the boss happy is part of a job, but that should be accomplished by doing good work. This direct proposition just felt too quid pro quo and had a stink to it, in my opinion.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by couchand on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:26PM (#30836355)
Was your new manager new to being a manager? I could see that kind of offer coming from an operator, but I could just as much see it coming from someone lacking confidence trying to project a miscalculated sense of authority.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:50PM (#30837419)
They were a manager for a long time before that.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by jader201 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:16AM (#30831376)
At the end of the day, even the best bosses care about making money, because that’s what _their_ bosses (i.e. investors) care about.

So even if you find a boss/employer that is supportive of “the fun stuff” for a season, that will eventually come to an end.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by eden-alpha on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:24AM (#30831493)
Honestly that's what anyone employed to a company should care about. Your aim should be delivering value, which sometimes means making long term investments that improve the development environment.

You also should spend a portion time learning as it enables you to create more value over time.

And yes you should take time to get to know your colleagues, take breaks, play ping pong, etc. This helps you refresh yourself and avoid running out of steam.

But the work is meant to create value, hence why you are rewarding with currency you can exchange for things you value.

Manage a positive work life balance and and do the "fun" stuff outside of work. Life is not all work and work is not all of life.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:53PM (#30832607)
"Your aim should be delivering value, which sometimes means making long term investments that improve the development environment."

That makes sense as long as it also matches the employee's goal of being paid for the work they do. If you work at a place like my job, you will never be promoted if you do this necessary behind the scenes stuff. It's as if the motto is "if the business user doesn't see it, it never happened". Sucks if you're spending a lot time on things that are supposed to be invisible to a user, like security or availability.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by toomuchtodo on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:20AM (#30831423)
I had a boss who became a friend that borrowed me $30k on 24 hours notice, made me a partner at their startup, and was the best man at my wedding. n=1

Rare? Absolutely, but so is finding good people in general. Gather whatever signal you can, and keep rolling the dice, just as you would with friendships and romantic relationships.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by dominotw on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:25AM (#30831499)
except finding a boss is a tedious process vs swiping right.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:59AM (#30831903)
Sounds like an idea for a new employment app. Maybe HN specific to map the who users of the monthly employees threads to profiles, then swipe for an interview.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by dgb23 on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:01PM (#30831914)
There is a startup idea in there.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Msw242 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:25AM (#30831503)
Companies invest in all sorts of things that don't have an immediately tangible impact.

In terms of developer productivity, it all depends on management's assumptions built into their labor model. If you are paying top of market for "A players" who do "10x," the company might need the few engineers it has to do a huge/unsustainable amount of "focused work"

If management's model depends on high-potential team members upskilling on the job, "the fun stuff" might just be priced in.

The above are absolutely reductive and do not cover all cases.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by dominotw on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:24AM (#30831482)
How does one go about this?

You interview your boss in the interview process and get a feel for what type of preson he is and then go with that gut feeling yes/no

when your current boss leaves and you get a new boss that you don't like. Quit and go back to step 1.

Does anyone operate like this? doesn't seem very practical or foolproof.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Msw242 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:31AM (#30831569)
Smaller companies are more culturally homogeneous. With smaller companies, managers are usually a reflection of the company's cultural values.

If you accept the above as true, then you can start to reach out to team members at the company and ask them what the work environment is like.

If the work environment lines up with your values, then you'll probably be fine, even when the hiring manager moves on to greener pastures.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by dominotw on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:09PM (#30832025)
> ask them what the work environment is like.

I've been asked this when i interviewed ppl but i never gave them the truth and I've never gotten any honest truth when i was on the other side also.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:06PM (#30832772)
I find there's generally a hidden truth in how they answer it, but not in the answer itself. Stuff like hesitation, over the top praise, indirect answers, etc. If it sounds like they're telling me what I want to hear (or sounds like a sales pitch), then the BS meter starts clicking.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Msw242 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:45PM (#30838158)
Reach out to people who aren't interviewing you

People in the interview are under scrutiny and don't want to be responsible for driving away candidates

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by wildmanx on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:26AM (#30840485)
Anybody you reach out to, no matter hiring responsibility or not, has the interest of getting good people into the company, irrespective of how happy they themselves are at the workplace.

Really good people are hard to come by in this market (need to be not just smart but also easy to work with, communicate etc), so you better don't express dissatisfaction, otherwise they go to a competitor.

It's really hard to get honest opinions before accepting an offer. You have mostly gut feeling to go by, maybe join a team for a coffee break, this kind of thing. A direct question "what do you like least about your job?" could work too (it's kinda "what's your biggest weakness?" in reverse), but often times that's also just used to upsell or BS you, e.g. "the food here is too good, I'm getting fat". But you can try to read between the lines of course.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Msw242 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @06:56PM (#30849391)
This doesn't match my experience, but your mileage might vary
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:51PM (#30837428)
Not for me. I get a new boss on average every 9 months, just because they rotate/transfer so frequently.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:11AM (#30831310)
I have looked but haven't found any.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:40AM (#30831673)
I think for going from junior to senior, this is true, but for going from senior beyond, it’s the opposite.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by gedy on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:49AM (#30831775)
Lord, not my last boss. Basically was dividing salary by # of Jira tickets to measure productivity even for architects and directors. I got out of their asap.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by wildmanx on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:31AM (#30840508)
Just open tickets for those things then. "Read Xyz book", "catch up on C++17", "brush up on advanced git concepts", "have coffee with Jim from product management", "play pingpong this week with Jack and Julia from my team". Tons of ticket opportunities, and soon enough you'll be underpaid in the pay-per-ticket metric.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:02PM (#30831925)
I wish I could say this surprised me.
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Aeolun on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:52AM (#30838903)
There are a lot of things you can learn that do both?
Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by Mvandenbergh on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:27PM (#30834547)
That might be true for what your direct boss writes on your annual performance review but what do his peers and his bosses think? What do other potential collaborators, bosses, and investors in your local area or your industry think?

I think engineers can become obsessed with MinMaxing the wrong, purely local optimum without thinking: "what work-adjacent things might lead to a CTO role in five years?" and this is often quite a different question than "what makes Mr Shankly happy in this quarter's performance review?". Yeah, if your immediate boss thinks you're useless and sacks you then your overall profile might not help much but being an invisible cog in the their team will only improve the esteem that they hold you in and not your larger professional reputation.

Did "the bosses" reach their own positions by closing the most tickets every month? I kind of doubt it and it is worth distinguishing what makes you useful to them vs puts you on the path to join them. If that seems overly careerist, well fire up Jira and get another bug sorted after dinner.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by IAmNotAFix on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:51AM (#30831799)
> That is a surefire way to burn out.

Any source on that? I agree with the assessment about engineers (althought it's a generalization), but I always thought it was because their "focused work" is what they actually like doing. In my experience work was most stressful when it strayed the most from focused work.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by TameAntelope on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:06PM (#30831989)
Can you elaborate a bit on what kind of "source" you'd like to see? I'm trying to imagine what could possibly satisfy this request and I'm coming up blank.

Generally, slapping "Source?" in a reply to a comment is a lot less helpful and productive than you might initially think.

Re:Maybe you should do less 'work' by zozbot234 on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:08PM (#30832011)
If you can maintain a state of focus and actively like your work, you are likely near peak productivity and quite far from possible burnout. Just don't push beyond your reasonable limits or you might end up giving yourself a heart attack.