It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy, and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with modern software development, even the things we buy can be suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby other software and hardware manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.

But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's corporate customers would play ball with something like that, and they still represent a powerful interest group where MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?

This was a very stark comparison to my experience on my machine that I use Win 11 Pro on, which has none of the advertising fluff, TikTok isn’t pre-installed and pushed onto me when I open the start menu. It just has the things I want, that I added, and use frequently in the start menu. I didn’t use any of those uninstall scripts that tend to gouge into the OS, but it was upgraded from Win10, which had been installed ~3 months earlier.

1. Settings (Win+I)

2. System

3. Notifications

4. [ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device

Android is a great base, and some OEMs customise it to hell, and add their "bloat". Some is genuinely terrible, some is interesting. There's always Google and Motorola phones ( at the very least) which give stock experience, and popular FOSS versions you can flash yourself if you fancy them more.

Compared to the iOS experience, if you don't like it, you're holding it wrong ( does iOS finally support anything else besides all your apps are plastered on the home screen, with optional folders? As someone who grew up arguing with people who just put everything on their Desktop, i twitch thinking of that).

If it wasn't for MS Teams, Windows would be gone for a while now. No way I "upgrade" to Win11. Luckily, both laptops run professional Windows liscences, the backup one with only local accounts. So I hope that protects me from much of MS pressure to upgrade.

Being used to local software, with local accounts and without "telemetry", I see the benefit of tue cloud. Less for storage, but Steam is actually a charm for example. Overall so, I think software took head dive when it came to user experience, privacy and performance. The fact that my OS will be serving ads now in the file explorer can only be part of one of Dante's rings of hell...

Perhaps it's worth trying out?

Zoom on linux works well for me however.

Employer provided hard- and software is a different story all together.

It's a vicious cycle.

Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install counts as an install. Linux is so much better.

That said, yeah, at this point Windows is becoming so bad that even I, a vocal Linux Desktop critic, must admit that soon Linux will at least be the less shitty of the two.

[0] at least not for the people who are still using Windows. Obviously some amount of this comes down to how and why any given person uses a desktop computer at all.

I don't know what else to tell you. I am a moron, lazy and get easily frustrated.

I don't work in IT.

Installation is 15 minutes and everything just works perfect. There is no way people can have all these problems with Linux here if I can figure this out. If it was any type of frustration I would just stick with Windows.

I think many people here must just make things up about all these linux problems because it makes no sense to me at all.

I don't even know what a single directory outside of my /home directory is for.

With Linux, anything that goes wrong is almost certainly of own design.

No, [Ardour, LMMS, Darktable, ...] aren't going to do as replacements (for the nth time), but it's not at all their fault. I also don't fault them or Linux as a whole for the people who badger about it while ignoring the needs of the person they're pestering, but not everyone is able to make that distinction, and it comes to reflect poorly on the software.

As for ports of the stuff I do use, it seems the fault is in the lack of cohesion. It's not free to assign developers to port to even a reasonably narrow subset of toolkits and libraries to target the most users, and having a lawyer go over the licenses to see about packing it in costs money. And they're not likely to ever recover that cost in sales: the people who want it are already using the Windows or Mac version, and the people they might sell to are already productive and skilled with Linux options.

They have been for me. Darktable does not feel like a compromise. The ability to edit skin from RAW made the need for other editors pretty small. I go to Hugin to stitch panoramas but that's about it.

If you want actual evidence, you'd need to control for some variables like windows being preinstalled and about the only ads it got was Microsoft advertising "why not Linux" in the past. Right now you need to spend some effort to even give it a go.

For us techies, having to occasionally fall back to the terminal to fix a hiccup is worthwhile not having to deal with Microsoft's recent BS.

For a non-technical user however, Microsoft's BS means they can still accomplish their task, albeit slowly and without privacy, while Linux will leave them completely stranded if something breaks because they have no clue how to fix it.

It doesn't help that the Linux world spreads itself thin on reinventing the same square wheel 10 times (and arguing/fighting about which wheel is best - think systemd vs other inits, desktop environments, etc) completely ignoring (or denying) the fact that the wheel is square.

Is Windows really much different in this respect?

My partner is not at all interested in tech, and they use Fedora Silverblue (at my suggestion) because it's less intrusive than Windows and it's hard to break. It seems to behave weirdly less often than Windows did.

(The only thing that didn't just work was the printer, but we poked around in the printer settings a bit, and now it works.)

If Windows did just work, they wouldn't have been willing to switch to Silverblue.

The same line of reasoning concludes that McDonalds is better than home cooking.

(People are lazy and easily swayed by cheap psychological tricks)

It's also good if you just need to do one or two things and they happen to work on Linux. Some people install it on their grandma's internet PC.

Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.

Depends on he kind of developer. Web developer? Probably. Game developer? It's a joke.

> Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now, via Valve's fork of Wine.

That at least is true, it's getting a lot better. However, VR is still a hell of a lot more problematic on Linux even if you're using Valve's hardware.

Like I said, a lot of it comes down to how and why you use a desktop computer in the first place.

I think it's better at technical things for any kind of developer or technical person, generally. (Even at non-technical things in some cases: KDE, as a desktop environment, wipes the floor with Windows's desktop environment, from the taskbar to the file manager.)

But if one developer's "better" includes "playing <AAA game with anticheat>" or "using Photoshop" or "using VR", the betterness is sharply decreased.

I count myself extremely lucky my need/want matrix has happened to align such that I'm much more comfortable on Linux than on Windows, but that alignment is sadly RNG. :p

Teams for Ubuntu works well enough.

Most people would still have a hard time switching to Ubuntu, but then again most people (outside of HN audience) have no use for the file manager, or are using work computers that somebody else is maintaining. The people who a) need Windows, and b) need to use something other than the browser, are a tiny minority who are also tech savvy enough to figure out some way to deal with this.

Where I see it as a dark pattern is, someone is trying to figure out how to do something on their Windows computer, and the first thing they see is an ad that looks like a help message, inviting them to install something that they have to pay for and exposes them to even more ads. It's like Clippy but takes your money.

Sorry, not for my needs, it's not. My powershell-gutted w10 pro runs the software i need with remarkably little fuss. I keep trying Linux every few years, but nope, not yet. So, dis-connected from the netm and piracy it will be.

After using all OSes, Linux is still lacking vendor support that Windows has, so one needs les time and lower level knowledge then on Linux to setup some things.

What we need is bloat free Windows, only kernel and package manager like Chocolatey/scoop/winget.

I have no seen this in my enviroment?

https://office365itpros.com/2021/04/01/microsoft-push-ads-te...

It's like quitting social media - mildly inconvenient, vastly better for your mental health.

Most of the annoyances are removed from there, and you can stick with an older version and not be forced to take the "feature" updates, 1809 works well.

The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on support, maybe it works now.

A local KMS activator will license it, then you don't worry about adverts in Explorer, for a few years at least...

It does! It's a bit trickier than just getting it from the MS Store, because that's not a thing in Windows 10 LTSC, but you can install some dependencies and get Terminal from GitHub[1]. I just set it up a couple days ago on an LTSC virtual machine, and it works just fine.

[1] https://nerdschalk.com/how-to-install-windows-terminal-from-...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/stat...

The LTSC versions get 10 years of security updates.

I even checked endoflife.date, but it looks like they aren’t aware either!

But it’s basically impossible to buy for small numbers of computers legally. And when it’s possible, it’s crazy expensive. (no, those licenses on eBay are not legal.)

Also the base Windows is not updated, so you end up with weird issues with games, that expect newer Windows; but sometimes also normal software. And Store is not there, which you might actually miss.

--

"Microsoft recommentds Windows 11 for your device"

"blablabla it's the best"

"Learn more -- Decline upgrade -- Get it"

--

Pressing "Decline upgrade" yields a new screen:

--

"Not sure about Windows 11?"

"blablabla it's the best"

"Skip for now -- Get Windows 11"

--

And "Skip for now" brings me to my desktop.

I wonder if disabling TPM could be a solution.

This is not necessary, only a very niche like 1% of computer users use Linux as their primary OS

Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.

You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit in front and do your work.

Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work, asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging everything according to their newest ideas.

It's absolutely horrible.

This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it so often too.

My personal opinion is:

Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version. From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades.

It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads, telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what.

Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'" will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business priorities".

Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to generate more OEM license sales and zzzzzzz (look the VPs already fell asleep during your presentation).

Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that isn't something MS does anymore.

But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue? Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!

Hint: people don't buy Macs because they're at version 11 (or 12 now), they buy it because the experience is much more polished than whatever Microsoft has been puking out in the last decade.

> Microsoft's developer evangelist Jerry Nixon made the announcement at the company's Ignite conference in Chicago last week.

That's a bit more than "a random dev".

I don't doubt he thought he was telling the truth, or that there was a general sense within the organization that windows 10 was going to get continually updated rather than having new editions every 3 years. Windows 10 did adopt this model for 6 years. But painting it as some sort of official promise from the organization seems tenuous.

Really? It's hard to see how they could say that without getting laughed out of the room, considering they said the same thing about Windows 10.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-de...

The mistake was in the strategy: "Let's combine touch interfaces with desktop interfaces. Tablets are the next computing revolution." Oops.

Also, there are few to no replacements. Because at some point, the last generation decided Windows was the only real OS. Oops!

On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few minor 3rds (BSD maybe?).

On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit.

In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With Google a distant 3rd.

Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans.

When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the sector matures so the 2 winners emerge.

Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer developers.

This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each platform has a winner and a follower, and little else.

To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare.

So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the players - the game is the game.

1: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

But it merely reflects my point that there tends to be one big player in most markets. Android / ios is also skewed (globally) but ios is very much a player.

You don't have to be number 1 to be in the game, but past number 2 it's very hard to break in. And if number 2 is strong, close to impossible.

Removing the start button was a classic example, and there is or was plenty of unrest in the walls of Microsoft around all the data being collected.

I am more than confident there are 10s of thousands of employees that are either resigned in disappointment or actively annoyed at what Microsoft has done here with these ads, just like the Skydrive ads before them.

Disclosure: worked for Microsoft a long time ago. My views, obviously, do not reflect their values.

Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning past lessons.

There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others], mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!].

Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be done without gatekeepers like MS.

Don't play Fortnite. Skip the game that was designed to rip off your money instead of entertaining your kids, and teach your kids something useful like programming their own games.

The industry builds what the industry wants.

it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit because it's so inconsistent.

I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout.

search results are still this bad, with unrelated results shadowing good matches: https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png

windows security often gives me a notification. the notification say: "no action needed"

it's like they just put interns in cages and set them to program away, building stuff for the sake of accounting new lines of codes.

Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read them.

No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else your obtuse program manager decided would get them a promotion.

I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds.

Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name. Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also, please stop doing a UI redesign every year.

No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.

Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous search is worthy of inclusion into the past searches list.

Throughout all these comments i just hear George Carlin....'people that should be.....'

Different people do have different needs, and it's clear that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since it's both a map, business directory, and navigation service.

If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in a menu somewhere.

I think we all know by now Google goes for the simply route that asks the least of a user. Google is well known for not providing much customization and basically forcing you to use it a certain way. And clearly this model works with the popularity they have. I know us powerusers don't always like this kind of thing, but for regular users this is the way that seems to work best.

I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling through their social media feeds and watching videos that play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending big text messages, the people who are having conversations with passengers and for some reason always have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping their eyes on the road, etc....

It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very much don't want the route to change automatically. It means that some attention has to be paid to the app so you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it means that you have a time-limited action that you must perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and distraction.

> No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not - don't.

That is what I am addressing. That it already does automatic rerouting without user interaction being required.

I don't actually hate the new features themselves.

For example Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as far as Google is concerned.

The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions of people will net them that next promotion and a nice "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet point on the resume. The company executives don't care either, because they know that boasting about the increased engagement figures will make their stock price go up.

By the time the degraded experience causes actual repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and executives will be long gone and will already have cashed out.

Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be happening.

MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.

Nah, it's just some manager who needs a pay raise.

Did you say alexa?

You mean product managers? I’m not sure what engineers and designers have to do with this. My guess is that they know it’s stupid, tried to shut it down and failed.