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Re:Elementary OS is imploding by Sirikon on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @03:43AM (#30612249)
Probably not intentional, but Lunduke is using Danielle's dead name in there. Just sayin'.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by input_sh on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:18AM (#30612498)
Honestly, probably intentional. I mean, you can't write an article about a Twitter thread where above each tweet you see the name Danielle and still call her Daniel accidentally.

And this isn't the first time that Lunduke is behaving... reactionary, to put it mildly.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by toasteros on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @11:01AM (#30615920)
It is intentional. Lunduke spends most of his time doling out hate towards trans people now. There's a (now deleted) twitter exchange between him and someone he calls "a man in a dress".

He is a very hateful person these days.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by josteink on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:15PM (#30620077)
That sounds like quite a narrow-sighted view of the man.

The way I see him, he is cheerful, enthusiastic and tries to find joy and fun in technology and computing.

Color me prejudist, but that's probably the polar opposite of trying to find politics in technology and computing.

Besides, not everyone is 100% caught up in this trans-bubble, where being trans is the single most important thing in the universe. I realize it is for some people, a small minority, and that's perfectly OK.

But at the same time, it is not for the vast majority, and most people just don't care that much, and don't pay much attention to the subject, at all. And that's not wrong. It's OK too. And the minority will just have to deal with different people being different. That's sort of their schtick too, isn't it?

Would it be completely out of this world to assume that Lunduke is simply being careless here, because it's not on his radar? I certainly wouldn't go checking if people I've interviewed before have changed gender since last time around, before referring to them in an article.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by pell on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @06:10PM (#30621209)
>The way I see him, he is cheerful, enthusiastic and tries to find joy and fun in technology and computing.

I've been following Lunduke since the Linux Action Show days, read his blog regularly, used Illumination Software Creator and also bought a copy of the comic he wrote. I also dabbled in his own programming language (titled after his last name) back when he worked on it. I agree that Lunduke is cheerful and enthusiastic about technology and computing. I'm prefacing this to make sure it's clear that I've been following him for a long time and am not just jumping on some bandwagon to bash some individual for no reason.

>Color me prejudist, but that's probably the polar opposite of trying to find politics in technology and computing.

Lunduke would be the first to tell you that technology is not apolitical. His public persona is tied to open source activism. He discussed political aspects of technology such as net neutrality, DRMs, big vendor influence in protocols and more at length. Back when I followed his Twitter account he commented on political news very frequently. Further, he has a blog called "Conservative Nerds" where he writes solely about politics. It is evident that Lunduke doesn't communicate about technology in apolitical fashion only.

When you follow Lunduke's political statements it is clear that part of his schtick is to belittle so-called "woke" culture. He framed Torvalds' temporary departure as forced therapy because "he was mean to people". He called a trans woman a man in a dress. There are many more examples I can cite here. He also has shared and promoted various conspiracy theories over the past few years and I am excluding milder and "harmless" ones like his musings about UFOs here.

This is all to say that Lunduke's political views aren't hidden or just presumed but very much out in the open.

>Would it be completely out of this world to assume that Lunduke is simply being careless here, because it's not on his radar?

Yes, absolutely. But is it completely out of this world to assume that someone who has a track record of being contrarian on these topics might do this deliberately?

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by toasteros on Friday March 11, 2022 @11:40AM (#30642153)
> Would it be completely out of this world to assume that Lunduke is simply being careless here, because it's not on his radar? I certainly wouldn't go checking if people I've interviewed before have changed gender since last time around, before referring to them in an article.

I'd love it if that were the case, but his comments directly aimed at trans people suggest otherwise.

He is anti-vax & anti-trans and you just have to scroll down his twitter feed to see just how hateful he is. Finding "fun" in technology is not telling women that they are men in dresses, using their deadnames, or vocally pulling your kids out of school because of "medical tyranny".

I have no love for the wacky Linux Sucks guy anymore. His radicalism and hate has coloured his views too much for me.

Yes, it is narrow minded of me to shut him out of my headspace forever. But y'know what? That's okay. It's just Bryan Lunduke. Just some guy. He's as relevant to me as I am to you.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by josteink on Sunday March 13, 2022 @03:21PM (#30664788)
> Finding "fun" in technology is not telling women that they are men in dresses,

But they are biological men. Unless they had them surgically removed, they have penises and can reproduce by having sex with biological women. This part is literally un-debatable.

But having constructed a psyche different from your own biology (or how you are perceived by others) is entirely normal. I may picture myself as a tough guy. While others would probably point and laugh if I said that out loud.

That some people happen to have constructed a psyche with a different sex than what their biology dictates, does in no way change their biology. It's just another case of the utterly normal psyche <-> reality mismatch.

By all means. Feel like a woman. Do things you typically portray that women do. Feel free! Do whatever you want. Go grazy! I won't care, and I certainly don't hate. And the same is probably the case with Mr. Lunduke.

But we do in no way recognize a biological man as a women. That's not "hate", and you should stop framing it as that. It's just basic biology for you: Men are biologically programmed to find a mate, a woman. A real women. And we can tell these guys aren't. Sorry :)

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by slightwinder on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @05:55AM (#30613160)
Habit is a strong force, and not everyone is reading display-names all the time. Especially on twitter I usually naviagate by the profile-picture, not the names, because people change their display-names all the time, making them unreliable.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by skrebbel on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @06:56AM (#30613509)
> Honestly, probably intentional.

Assuming bad intent doesn't often help clear up conflicts on the internet.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by input_sh on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @08:09AM (#30614011)
We're talking about a guy who has another substack called Conservative Nerds and "Pronouns: Dude / Duder" in his Twitter bio dead naming a trans person.

Bad intent is a safe assumption. I'd obviously love to be proven wrong and see an edited version of the post, but I'm 99.999% sure that will not happen.

He knows exactly what he's doing.

[dead]
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by input_sh on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @08:29AM (#30614184)
And where did I imply otherwise? It's just a shitty thing to do, and I'm backing up my claim that it's such on purpose.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by AdmiralAsshat on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @08:46AM (#30614319)
Lunduke is a self described conservative, and Danielle is a self described "transgender lesbian communist".

It's intentional.

The sad thing is I'm pretty sure he's had her on his YouTube channel before.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by ddtaylor on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:09AM (#30614528)
He probably has not had her on post transition. It's possible she appeared on the channel before transition, eg. as "Daniel Fore" in the past which might be the reason for the confusion.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by AdmiralAsshat on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:47AM (#30614945)
I know we're supposed to assume good faith here, but I find that really hard to believe.

As far as I'm aware, Danielle didn't "announce" her transition in any EOS channels. But if you look at her profile for more than five seconds, it's pretty freaking obvious. Her name is updated on her Twitter, from which Lunduke based his article:

https://twitter.com/DaniElainaFore

It's updated on the EOS Reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/shdouy/update...

It's updated on the company blog: https://blog.elementary.io/elementary-os-6-1-available-now/

And it's plainly obvious on the company YouTube channel if you compare Q&A/livestreams between months:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfyFew7toGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryu9-F6B2Gs

I would be willing to overlook that kind of flagrant oversight if not for the fact that Lunduke calls himself A JOURNALIST. That he would continue to use her dead-name despite all of the research he's supposed to do as part of his job makes him either malicious or incompetent. Take your pick.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by ddtaylor on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:28AM (#30626640)
The handle is actually quite new. She transitioned months ago but didn't update her handles until last week.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by faho on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:07AM (#30612420)
For those who don't know, Danielle is transgender, and this article is using her name from before she came out, what is known as the "dead name".

Using it now is incredibly rude.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by sebastianlay on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:22AM (#30612517)
I follow the development of elementary for a while now and even contributed a little bit from time to time and this is honestly the first time I heard of this name change. So I think it is an easy mistake to make and would not automatically assume malice here.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by faho on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:24AM (#30612524)
Her twitter (which Lunduke links to, and copied tweets from) very prominently features her new name.

I'm not saying it can't be accidental (in which case you do what you do when you've accidentally been rude - apologize, correct your mistake and move on), but it is at least careless.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by pell on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:41AM (#30612647)
A few years ago Lunduke kept sharing some views that I would place in the more “reactionary“ spectrum. I’m not sure he ever distanced himself from that.

He did interview Danielle a few years back however.(1) So maybe it simply was a careless mistake.

(1) https://www.networkworld.com/article/3130760/elementary-os-0...

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by ddtaylor on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:11AM (#30614542)
> Her twitter (which Lunduke links to, and copied tweets from) very prominently features her new name.

It's worth mentioning the twitter handle is still "DanielFore"

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by faho on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @10:00AM (#30615103)
This is incorrect, the twitter handle is "DaniElainaFore" - https://mobile.twitter.com/DaniElainaFore

As you can see in the linked screenshots. Try to open the old handle and you will find one tweet telling you she's moved to the new one.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by ddtaylor on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:26AM (#30626622)
This handle is actually pretty new since the post-sex transition.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by faho on Thursday March 10, 2022 @01:24PM (#30630466)
This handle is in the archive links the article points to, and that's the important part.

Lunduke had this handle on his screen, and either missed it or chose to ignore it on purpose. The former is careless and sloppy, especially if you're trying to do journalism. The latter is very rude, to put it mildly.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by input_sh on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:28AM (#30612547)
Even if you followed her on Twitter, and "reported" on a thread with the name Danielle staring at you above each tweet?

I'd argue that by that point you'd be pretty aware.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by JoachimS on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @05:09AM (#30612832)
But Lunduke must have known.
[dead]
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by slightwinder on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:50AM (#30614984)
No, this is rude in any frame of mind. A person changed their name, and some people can't just accept it because of the reason for the name-change. If it had been any other reason, be marriage, adoption, religion some nerdy humor or what else...everyone would accept it without making a buzz about it.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by CodeGlitch on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @11:08AM (#30616042)
It's more than a name change though isn't it? It's access to women only spaces and women only sports etc. This is what people are really upset about. I don't think people actually care about name changes.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by embik on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @11:38AM (#30616524)
I don’t see Danielle trying to compete in women only sports here, so this boils down to throwing a temper tantrum like a toddler and being rude because you (as in Lunduke, not you as a poster Im answering to) think you have a right to determine how a person feels about themselves, more than the person. There is no excuse for it.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by boomboomsubban on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:04AM (#30614480)
Calling someone by their chosen name isn't gender politics, it's just common courtesy.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by nyanpasu64 on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:46AM (#30614933)
It's not just rude in general, but actively hurtful to the person being named.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by thomasedwards on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:34AM (#30614786)
Hate to break it to you my guy, but that is not ‘gender politics’, it‘s just her name and her pronouns. If you use he/him and I say she/her, that’s rude. It’s no different.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by otikik on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @10:12AM (#30615255)
> arbitrarily

You might not agree with their reasons, but these changes have a lot of costs associated with them (mostly thanks to people who share your views). Calling these reasons "arbitrary" is either ignorant or disrespectful.

> keep your gender politics out of this technical discussion platform

Keep your "gender politics" politics out of this technical discussion platform.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by young_unixer on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @09:52AM (#30615012)
Even from my point of view that transgender people don't exist (at least not on earth, our science hasn't developed a way to change the sexual cromosomes throughout the human body yet) I would still call someone by the name that they call themselves, even if it's a name that tipically isn't associated to their actual gender.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by nobodywasishere on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#30615234)
Whether someone is transgender or not has nothing to do with whether they decide to physically transition. As well, a person's "actual gender" is the one felt deeply as a part of themselves, not based the sex they were assigned at birth.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by orestarod on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @01:59PM (#30618597)
Doesn't gender lose its meaning if it's not tied to sex? As in, it is just a person's psych? I am not saying it negatively, I am all for sex having no predetermined effect on someone's behavior. But if there as many genders as there are people, it is no longer a useful term.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by DoctorOW on Thursday March 10, 2022 @02:08AM (#30623935)
> Doesn't gender lose its meaning if it's not tied to sex? As in, it is just a person's psych?

What do you mean by "sex"? Would a woman who goes through menopause no longer be a woman because she's not fertile? What about someone born intersex with multiple or no recognizable genitals? What about a woman with a Y Chromosome? That's not hypothetical it's recognized by actual biologists. The reason it's under diagnosed is because it rarely shows symptoms so it's only something someone already taking a DNA test would find out.

Fun fact though, when you meet someone, you forgo the strip search, DNA test, and ultrasound required to actually verify these things. Not only is gender not based on sex, YOU don't base your evaluation of it on sex. Instead you've picked a number of unrelated arbitrary qualities, which is what scientists and I call "dumb". If we're assigning genders willy nilly why should you be in charge of everyone? Let everyone pick for themselves.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by orestarod on Thursday March 10, 2022 @09:58AM (#30627605)
You seem to be putting a lot in my mouth on your own.

Let me ask you a question to clarify things: Is ANY gender based in ANY way on the sexual organs (and thus the biologically assigned sex) of ANY human?

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by DoctorOW on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:02PM (#30633069)
> You seem to be putting a lot in my mouth on your own.

That's okay. I'm peering through the internet and into your mind.

> Is ANY gender based in ANY way on the sexual organs (and thus the biologically assigned sex) of ANY human?

Nope. See my above statements for proof.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by orestarod on Thursday March 10, 2022 @06:35PM (#30634125)
Nice. Since the answer is "Nope", here comes my point: What IS the meaning of gender anyway? Shouldn't we rather call each human's "gender" their unique personality instead? Since that's what it actually is? What is the meaning of saying "My gender is woman"? What IS a woman? In the past "woman" was tied to the reproductory organ. Since it no longer is, well... let's get rid of the notion altogether. It only serves to put labels on personalities, and these labels themselves are based on ancient obsolete ideas.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by DoctorOW on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:38PM (#30635116)
> In the past "woman" was tied to the reproductory organ.

At what point did everyone stop strip searching people and inspecting their reproductive organs? Must have been before I was born.

Re:Elementary OS is imploding by orestarod on Friday March 11, 2022 @04:15AM (#30637902)
That's ingenious, because everyone did not bother strip searching since they made their explicit conclusions about what was between your legs by the external appearance and behavior alone :)
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by pell on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @06:26PM (#30621353)
According to the theory, gender and biological sex are not inherently tied to each other. You might enjoy reading this essay if you are interested in learning more about this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/02/18/typical-mind-and-gende...
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by boredpudding on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @04:55AM (#30612744)
Hacker News should just remove the link to the blog and replace it with the actual twitter thread. There's no additional information provided by Lunduke, and based on earlier work by Lunduke, it unfortunately looks intentional.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by koenvdb on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @05:23AM (#30612918)
The deleted tweets are added by him. So it does have a bit of additional information.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by FR10 on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @07:26AM (#30613701)
I think the context, although minimal is important as someone who isnt following Elementary closely.
Re:Elementary OS is imploding by jafoi on Wednesday March 09, 2022 @05:28AM (#30612961)
Of course there is additional information in this link: it shows tweets that were deleted and Cassidy's retort.