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Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @08:34AM (#30385478)
Always wondered why anyone would use desktop on BSD.

Use stuff where it fits well for its purpose.

I use Windows only for gaming, Mac for development and Linux for servers where they excel at what they do.

Also I really don't get why BSD developers care to develop desktop environment with their limited resource but they should just concentrate on server offerings if they want to stay relevant besides having a more free license than Linux.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by inopinatus on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:49AM (#30388051)
> Also I really don't get why BSD developers care to develop desktop environment with their limited resource

Because they want to: they are the limited resource, and have agency. They may allocate their time as they please, and to their own benefit and preferences. Why should they pander to yours, when you don't even use it, let alone contribute? I struggle to comprehend how such an over-entitled expectation arises.

> if they want to stay relevant

I don't think you realise the sheer scale of the unobtrusively installed BSD base, from fundamental infrastructure (SANs, routers) to home entertainment systems (PS5) and more besides.

And of course, rather notoriously, BSD origins still account for a fair chunk of the userland on that Mac of yours.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:19PM (#30391885)
I used to use BSD on my hobby server just to keep up with the BSD world but nowadays on Linux, I use various packages from Docker hub and little tools from Homebrew but they don't work on BSD and I've lost the reason to use BSD especially when Ubuntu offers zfs in easy to use packages.

I don't use BSD nor Linux for desktop because I like the third party tools offered on macOS for work and now I don't know what BSD is for me. I'm also amazed how FreeBSD doesn't care to make it work on Raspberry Pi.

Perhaps I'm not the only one in the same boat and people may stop packaging tools for BSD and less people may use it.

Not my business but just an advice.

I see the license is a big part that keeps BSD rolling where the manufacturers want to keep their changes to their own and I get it that people should thank how OpenSSH is developed upstream at OpenBSD.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by 1500100900 on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:38PM (#30392092)
> I don't use BSD nor Linux for desktop because I like the third party tools offered on macOS for work and now I don't know what BSD is for me. I'm also amazed how FreeBSD doesn't care to make it work on Raspberry Pi.

Where did you get that from? Maybe they care, but it's not that easy for some technical reason?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @07:12PM (#30392998)
I got that too far. I had the impression it was borked but it just didn't have wi-fi support. Other parts work. But it does limit its usage like making a wireless router out of it. (Can attach an external antenna via USB maybe.)

https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Raspberry%20Pi#What_works

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by UI_at_80x24 on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:44AM (#30387178)
I use it (FreeBSD) because I want my workstation to match my servers when it comes to basics like the environment variables, kernel versions, and packages.

I manage 100+ servers, and 1000+ domains. If I want to make sure that a security patch for a critical CVE doesn't fuck with our systems, or I want to test a new script to make sure it works I do the following:

ZFS snapshot of my "dev jail". Apply the patch/write the script. Test everything and make sure it still works. Ansible: ZFS snapshot the fleet, apply the patch/deploy the script

So gaming and other 'fun' things are not my goal on my workstation, I do use it. There's at least One of us!

Because it's what my servers use, it's what I want to use on my desktop. I'd like to add here that I LOVE using i3. I'm from an age where the OS is supposed to get out of the way. I want to use my programs, not my operating system.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Koshkin on Friday February 18, 2022 @08:49AM (#30385610)
People say it’s Windows that excels for development (because of Visual Studio), and gaming on Linux is not a huge problem anymore. And BSDs (FreeBSD and Dragonfly, in particular) do excel on the server side. I’d agree that it’s still the Year of MacOS on the Desktop, although Linux is catching up pretty quickly (while Windows is receding into sheer madness).
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by sgjohnson on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:05AM (#30385775)
> People say it’s Windows that excels for development (because of Visual Studio)

Depends on the development you're doing. .NET or C# -- Windows, hands down. That's about it.

Besides, I prefer JetBrains IDEs anyway, which are platform agnostic.

And I'm in the same boat, macOS for work/development, loonix on VMs/servers, and Windows is strictly for gaming.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by city41 on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:03AM (#30385751)
Windows excels at development if you're using Microsoft tech. Virtually all other tech stacks are at a disadvantage on Windows. WSL and WSL2 were created largely to address this gap.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by pjmlp on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:27AM (#30386931)
WSL and WSL2 were created to target the market of people that buy Mac laptops when they should be supporting Linux OEMs.

People that don't care what OS they are running, as long as they get their POSIX toys.

In fact, given the size of that market, most likely Linux would never happened if Microsoft had been half as serious with Windows NT POSIX subsystem.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hnfong on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:55AM (#30388135)
Yeah, GNU/NT would have changed everything.

Instead we got cygwin :-/

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by CRConrad on Friday February 18, 2022 @04:54PM (#30391616)
> Instead we got cygwin :-/

I've only used what I think is a subset (of a clone or subset?) of Cygwin: "git bash". At two jobs, on two different Win 10 laptops now.

Is the rest of Cygwin also as excruciatingly slow?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by remexre on Saturday February 19, 2022 @01:32AM (#30394869)
My understanding is that the general problem description for "this Unix program is really really slow when recompiled for Windows" is generally either "lots of small files is good style on Unix, but expensive on Windows," or "fork() is nearly free on every Unix, but potentially expensive in NT."
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by pjmlp on Saturday February 19, 2022 @02:30AM (#30395103)
This UNIX program is slow when compiling to any non POSIX OS (Windows is not the only one), because well stuff like fork() has to be emulated.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by CRConrad on Sunday February 20, 2022 @07:33AM (#30405199)
Sorry, I still don't get it -- I don't understand what either "lots of small files" or "stuff like fork()" have to do with this. Are those really the reason that "git bash", a single command line interpreting shell, runs single commands like 'ls -l *.txt" or "cd ../../uncle_dir/cousin_dir" as if it was stuck in a mixture of tar and molasses? (Do any processes have to be forked to switch my pwd? And it wasn't really all that many .txt files! :-)

Oh well, my entire data set is N=2, so anecdata rather than any wide-reaching survey; could well be pure coincidence. It just struck me as I started a new job last Monday, got a new Windows work laptop and started the arduous process of installing required (and allowed) software on it, how uncanny the similarities between corporate computing environments are... Right down to this apparent slowness on the MING-64 command line.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by pjmlp on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:38PM (#30388634)
Windows NT POSIX subsystem was more like BSD/NT, basic effort.

And SUA was also not much GNU related.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by dilippkumar on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:16PM (#30389914)
> …and Dragonfly, in particular…

Can you please elaborate? My exposure to DragonflyBSD is limited to knowing that they have an interesting new filesystem (Hammer2).

What is it like to actually use it? Is Hammer2 a significant improvement over ZFS on FreeBSD? Does Dragonfly have other selling points?

I’d love to hear the strongest case for deploying Dragonfly.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mrits on Friday February 18, 2022 @08:55AM (#30385671)
Gaming on Linux is as bad as it's been in a long time and is only going to get worst because of anti-cheat systems.

Visual Studio is on more platforms than Windows and not even the preferred IDE of most devs on Windows unless they are doing .NET.

FreeBSD does not excel on the server side. I don't know any companies that even use it and I spent the last decade consulting with hundreds of companies.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by wang_li on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:32AM (#30387007)
>FreeBSD does not excel on the server side. I don't know any companies that even use it and I spent the last decade consulting with hundreds of companies.

Examples come to mind: Whatsapp and Hotmail used to use it before being acquired by companies with their own tech stacks. Netflix's streaming service is based on it. Pfsense was based on it at one time, not sure if it still is. Juniper uses it. If you go check out the FreeBSD Foundation donations pages you'll see Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Netflix, and others.

Reality is that on the server and in the data center all I need from an OS is a near posix userland and wired network and storage drivers.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:30PM (#30391996)
I always wondered how FreeBSD foundation is run.

https://freebsdfoundation.org/about-us/about-the-foundation/...

They have so little income with those sponsors and multiple times that expense and who is covering the cost?

The total income is like one guy's salary and is that all those big names are paying as sponsors?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by soupbowl on Friday February 18, 2022 @06:43PM (#30392741)
I am an avid fan and user of FreeBSD, l have wondered the same thing myself over the years.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by noirbot on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:19AM (#30385931)
I'm sure it depends on the games you want to play - competitive games where anti-cheat is a thing, sure, but if you're ideologically against having kernel level anti-cheat then that's not that Linux gaming is bad, it's just that gaming as a whole is bad.

Most single-player stuff I've tried has worked fine on Linux with either Lutris + Wine or Steam + Proton. The only games that haven't are super small indie stuff where I just assume they're coded a little poorly in some way.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by jmnicolas on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:06AM (#30385780)
> Visual Studio is on more platforms than Windows

No, Visual Studio for Macs is a rebranded Mono thing, it has nothing to do with the Windows Visual Studio. There's no VS for Linux.

Of course MS had to complicate things by naming their electron editor Visual Studio Code...

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by pjmlp on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:31AM (#30386986)
Nope, Visual Studio for Mac started as a rebranded Mono thing after Xamarin acquisition.

Since then, the amount of plugins shared with Visual Studio has increased, which is a reason why Microsoft started pushing to write them in C# instead of COM.

Currently it is being rewritten, and should be mostly completly unrelated to Mono Develop by .NET 7 release.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by breakfastduck on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:32AM (#30386136)
This comment is wrong on so many levels.

But to tackle the main one, gaming on Linux is in the best position it's ever been in. It's not getting 'worse' due to anti cheat, in fact the steamdeck and valve are actively bringing compatibility to linux for those things.

What can you possibly be basing your claim on there? Are you aware of proton?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by gundamdoubleO on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:25AM (#30386031)
You're kidding right? Linux gaming compatibility has been near ideal for me for the past year and we already know the anti-cheat situation is at least being worked thanks to vendors like Valve. I haven't boot into Windows for a long time for gaming. The only real exceptions being Microsoft exclusives or multiplayer EGS titles.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by headhuntermdk on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:34AM (#30386156)
I'm guessing you haven't heard of Netflix then

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-epyc-cpus-netflix-band...

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mrits on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:58AM (#30386531)
The widely known use cases for FreeBSD doesn't have much to do with it "excelling" as a server OS.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Shared404 on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:13AM (#30386732)
Where does FreeBSD excel then, because last time I checked all the widely known use cases were split about 50/50 serving and routing, with a side of Playstation.

Re: Linux gaming: Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the MCC playing on my Linux box. And Ori. And Stardew, RoR2, Everspace, XCOM2, SWTOR, Hades, DST, Hollow Knight, FTL, Terraria, Human Fall Flat, Portal 1/2, and a variety of other games.

As far as anticheat is concerned, that's actively being worked on by Valve and the largest stake holders.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mrits on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:40PM (#30388663)
Now list the games that you can't play
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Shared404 on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:43PM (#30388707)
Literally none that I've tried have given me problems.

But to the working games, let me add: Overwatch, League of Legends, Anything from GBA/GB/NES/SNES/DS/OtherRetroSystems, Starcraft. Oh, and Minecraft of course.

I'm sure I can come up with more.

Edit: One steam library checking later - and I'll note, this is stuff that I've actually played on Linux (and is also filtered by names I think people would recognize): Arma 3, Blitzkrieg 2, Pit People, Castle Crashers, BattleBlock Theater, Unturned, Invisible Inc., Baldurs Gate, Undertale, Speedrunners, Dota 2, Gary's Mod, Everspace, Raft, AoE 3.

This makes up the VAST majority of my steam library, none of which was purchased checking for Linux compatibility.

It's one thing to say that a specific game you want doesn't work, and quite another to say it in general doesn't work.

Edit again: Rocket League. That's it. That's the only one that I know of issues with, and I don't know if it even still has issues - I stopped playing when it required an Epic account.

Oh hey, lookie there: https://www.protondb.com/app/252950 . Sounds like that works too.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by trasz on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:11PM (#30389860)
You could (to some extent) say the same thing about FreeBSD: https://github.com/shkhln/linuxulator-steam-utils/wiki/Compa...
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by NexRebular on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:46PM (#30390850)
There's also Proton port but have no idea on how it works nowadays.

https://www.freshports.org/emulators/wine-proton/

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by moffkalast on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:27AM (#30387751)
> Mac for development

Is Mac really any better than Windows or Linux for dev? Or is it just that a Macbook is more convenient to carry around?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by gglitch on Friday February 18, 2022 @01:59PM (#30389679)
For me personally, moving back to Linux has been a huge improvement. Absolutely the only thing I miss from my mbp was having out-of-the-box keymapping of Control to Control and Command to Super, giving me readline throughout the system. I'm sure there's a straightforward way to produce this in KDE, but it'd be nice not to have to monkey with it. Readline is amazing.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:50PM (#30392213)
Frankly, the tools themselves are quite similar for the web dev that I do, so I can have the same set of tools running on either OS but it's the little utilities that counts.

There may be alternatives in Windows with same quality but haven't looked at Windows other than gaming for a while.

- QR code generator on copy (No you don't paste nor hit the generate button but it produces the code on copy while the app is running)

- Clipboard manager that can search and preview images even. Who can live without a good clipboard manager these days? Losing password you just generated because you copied your user name should be a thing of the past. I heard Win11 finally getting one. Didn't find any good third party ones the last time I looked.

- Trackpad. This is such a good stuff, I just swipe down with my 3 fingers to close any tab/window with customizable gestures. No more hitting the tiny close button and plenty others tailored for each app as if my right hand is a magic wand.

- A good terminal with even better third party one. Windows finally getting Windows Terminal or WSL shell but was a decade late to the entry.

- iOS simulator. It's handy to check how a web site behaves in iOS within your OS.

- Develop for iOS/macOS. For those who do.

And generally the better look throughout than the convoluted structure of Windows app with 10 drop downs in the menu bar, 20 icons below that, with settings hidden under, settings -> advanced -> more.

And it's even worse when it comes to OS setting that is cross buried in the new settings and the control panel that still exists.

I don't get distracted by the OS except for the occasional OS update that would hold me up for 10 minutes.

And the hardware is good too and I guess no one complains Mac is expensive when an Air is like $1k.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by kergonath on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:32AM (#30387813)
Compared to Linux it’s a toss up. Though the Mac UI is miles ahead of standard Linux; you have to spend quite a long time tuning your DE to get something good and even then there is UI consistency across toolkits. The Mac has things like Office, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, more games as well. Linux has better package managers and is more customisable.

Both are vastly better than Windows for development.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by fartcannon on Friday February 18, 2022 @01:01PM (#30388969)
The Mac OSX UI is at least as bad as Windows. FFS Finder, guys!
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by kergonath on Friday February 18, 2022 @06:01PM (#30392324)
Cocoa is much, much better than anything I have seen on Windows.

Finder is just an application, but the toolkit is pervasive.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mekster on Friday February 18, 2022 @05:36PM (#30392067)
Never liked Finder but you can have alternatives like ForkLift and Transmit. I even enabled "Quit Finder" to get it out of my alt-tabbing.