In my view, having kids is a great way to take off the existential pressure of life being meaningless, by just having a default "do it for them" answer to every single question or hardship in life. And what then will give your child's life such a straightforward meaning? Well, just have kids of their own I guess, and their kids the same, all the way down, forever.
It always seems like a bit of a cop out to me. "Life is empty and meaningless, so I'll just have kids, let that fill up all my time, and maybe they can figure it out." I suppose that could be the history of humanity in a nutshell.
I understand the sentiment here, and prior to having children of my own, I would have agreed with you. But having kids brings tremendous meaning to one's life in a way that is difficult to explain - it has to be experienced. What you see as an infinite recursion, i.e.:
have children and find meaning --> your children find meaning from their children --> etc., etc. etc.
Being part of the ongoing chain of humanity, there's something beautiful about that lack of an endgame, just being a part of something and then passing the torch.
I am extremely happy that I do not have children and that I do not have to deal with children. I have so many meaningful relationships with adults and wonderful life experiences and every morning I look forward to continuing with the day. I do not desire children and I'm completely fine with not having them at all.
It's definitely a cop out. There are probably as many assholes with kids as there are without kids in this world.
If anything it’s just interesting that this happens.
On the flip side you will learn more about what you are capable of and you will be responsible for this little magical person who will make the world and time freeze just for a moment when they give you a hug and a kiss.
Is it worth it? That’s the wrong question…
But generally yes, everything you’re saying is 100% true and a valuable contribution to this type of conversation.
The thing I think about quite a bit is this: People with children will frequently bring up how much they’ve changed and matured after having kids. And I have seen this happen with many friends. But it’s also very difficult to really imagine the consequences of the lack of that decision. Because you don’t really have a clear view into that alternate timeline in which you don’t have the kids. What’s more we usually view that timeline as static - we don’t imagine ourselves continuing to change and evolve in it. “I was a irresponsible young adult right before kids so I would continue to be that irresponsible today if not for them.” But if you assume that just as much growth occurs in that other timeline, only in a different direction, then not having kids can be just as big and profound a decision as having them.
"I have a hard time to see any relevance in a life without children anymore."
Consider the fact that Chinese slaves made everything you own, and are wearing. Isn't that worth caring about? Wouldn't it be "relevant" to try improve that situation?
In this person's mind, a person without kids who is trying to solve the problem of human slavery, is living an "irrelevant life". It goes to show you how stupid the average person is, including the average parent.
You should actually go visit some factories in China, their working lives aren’t so different from working in a factory in the west.
I was lucky to have a great childhood. Becoming a parent is one route to giving someone else a great childhood. Lots of humans derive a feeling of meaning from giving good things to other humans, whatever form that might take. Parenthood isn't the only way to do this, of course.
Also, eventually one generation might figure it all out. We can only keep going and find out!
If video games, side projects, promotions, rock climbing, travel, etc. work for you, then go for it.
But I think for most, those fade. Kids are an investment that pays dividends forever.
I think the choose of having kissy it’s more a mix of ambition, societal conventions and natural instinct.
What if I tell you I find fullfilment in travelling? Should I feel sorry for people who do not want to travel (or can't because they have kids ;) )?
I agree with 3) though that a job should be just a means to the end.
It's not painting childless folks as having a condition, it's more kindhearted than that. It's saying, "Here's this thing that's incredibly difficult but infinitely rewarding. I care about you so I want you to experience it too".
It's also difficult to understand what you are getting into by having kids. It brings on a profound level of anxiety about their feelings and ultimate happiness. Your world is not yours anymore. You don't control them and you can rarely fix them. Anything that makes them sad is like a stab to your heart that requires immediate action. Imagine having a kid that does not have any ambitions and struggles to find any happiness and has problems with drug addiction. Get ready to have your soul ripped out.
Not having kids prevents this very possible outcome and allows you to focus on pampering yourself with your millions your whole life...with the side effect of perhaps coming to the conclusion that your own life is meaningless somewhere down the road.
If you reach a certain age and are still childless just know that nearly everyone will feel sorry for you.
The world does not revolve around single people...at all.
I legitimately do not care if people "feel sorry for me". I have good reasons for choosing not to have kids, and I hate the attitude that I'm somehow selfish or missing out on the "true meaning of life". Life is ultimately meaningless with or without kids. That allows you to make your own meaning, and kids are not a requirement for that.
There's this attitude that people who don't have kids are in some way selfish, but in my experience, the act of having kids can be the selfish one, especially if you are not in the position to be a good parent, for whatever reason. Many people have kids in that attempt to find meaning for themselves, not to actually be a good parent.
As a society, we need to be much better at not pushing every single person into being a parent. It just doesn't work for many people. And that's okay.
> The world does not revolve around single people...at all
Plenty of single people have kids, though?
I agree that this way of thinking probably runs contrary to the evolutionary code of the species. But we live in a world where that code is outdated, and education should allow us to teach people that marriage and child-rearing, while the right path for many people, is not the only route to self fulfillment and happiness. And those that choose alternate paths should not be treated as, or feel like, outcasts.
I also don't think I've ever experienced my fellow parents feeling sorry for somebody our age without kids. It's more often jealousy than anything else. A lot of people have kids because it's just the next thing you do and then they end up regretting it.
> If you reach a certain age and are still childless just know that nearly everyone will feel sorry for you.
Nearly everyone is a pretty large assumption, I think you speak mostly for yourself, not for 'nearly everyone'.
Exactly this. Additionally, I've known a number of parents that deeply regret having kids, and look on child free friends with envy, not sorrow.
It's not a socially acceptable view for them to have, so they generally keep it secret. And the majority of them still love their children, but have a very complicated relationship with the whole parenting situation. People don't want to talk about it, though, because it can come off like they hate their kids, which usually isn't the case.
We need to teach people from a young age that choosing not to have kids is a perfectly acceptable choice, if that's what they decide they want.
Having a child is a huge responsibility. It's not just something you can try out and see if it works for you or not.
Honestly, I think you are in a parent bubble or something. I don't quite understand your hardcore stance on must-have children.
> Not having kids [..] allows you to focus on pampering yourself with your millions your whole life...with the side effect of perhaps coming to the conclusion that your own life is meaningless somewhere down the road.
That seems an unfair characterisation; I don't have children for the simple reason that there are enough humans on the planet; it's not like there's a shortage. Many childless people I know feel like this.
I'd actually love to have a family; I just chose not to (thus far anyway) because I think it's better for "the greater good", which sounds a bit lame but that's what it is. You can agree or disagree with that take, but it's not pure selfish hedonism like you're describing; quite the opposite in fact.
Of course, adopting is a different wonderful way to have children where you can meet the child. But also in this situation: are you choosing one for their own sake or for you own sake?
PS: I have a kid and think a lot about the responsibility of parents to their children due to the fact that the parents decided to bring the children into the world.
So do I. Unfortunately I don't have any and most likely never will (the wife can't). Combined with an unfulfilling job, this makes most days quite pointless and hard to bear.
Personally I try to distract myself, not think too much about these things and just wait for it all to be over.
Focus on really helping people before you slide into depression.
I wish that was true. For me, dating became incredibly harder after 40 even though my social status has considerably increased.
It is absolutely a shit show and was far far easier in my 20s.
Better to try real life methods - even though they are incredibly difficult and resoundingly terrible overall too. The most difficult part could just be getting in front of someone you find attractive - dating apps make it relatively easy to find the attractive ones even if they put them behind a paywall.
> soulmates are hype
Another commenter said:
> marry up emotionally
Emotional hygeine is imo the biggest contributor to a stable relationship. I'm a stupid curmudgeonly weirdo but my wife is a gem of a woman and she keeps me going. Her positivity and our healthy debate about literally everything makes sure everything is going well and we're happy.
Hidden gems are around and I feel that literature/media over romanticizes serendipity among other things in dating and relationships.
Dating apps are terrible. There's a HN post doing BOTE math about dating that will blow your mind. Make friends. Friends and siblings (not parents or uncles/aunts) make the best matchmakers if you are open when you want to date someone.
With this reasoning, you might as well just get as big a mortgage as you can get instead. It will also give you a "meaning in life" - freeing yourself from the debt burden - and keep you busy for the next 30 years. At least you won't be gambling with a newly created life.
> it's the hardest thing you'll ever do but it's so rewarding
To set it straight:
- It's hard and there is no certain link between hard work and the reward of happy and successful children
- I have seen great parents with the worst children; at 40, they are angry and broken humans drifting directionlessly; since birth they have been angry and a pain in their parents' collective asses; they are the reason for parents divorce and will likely cause their early death as they battle with drug addictions, low self esteem and abusive relationships - all self inflicted. Both parents blame themselves and have had other happy and successful kids.
- God forbid you have a disabled child; this just plain sucks. If you have multiple children they all resent the disabled child. This child will never become independent and their life is your responsibility forever
- It involves a lot of stress and not a lot of thanks. Most kids are not grateful and don't realize the magnitude and sustain of time/money/sacrifice/stress it took to keep them alive and provide for them.
- It strains your relationship with your partner. Some parents I know are divorced primarily because of life stress caused by children.
- It complicates your life in every way. Want to take a walk? Dinner with friends? Travel? All these things are harder with children. You're constantly weighing opportunity cost because your available time is even more bottlenecked.
Know why you're having children and if you can handle it!!! Make sure you will never give up on them - this is a path to broken children. Index on negative experiences about what it's like to have children.
If after all that you still want kids, go forth and procreate!
Obviously, HN readers are well aware of it, but (mental) health is the best start.
We the HN readers are generally some of the luckiest people in the world because we were born smart enough to be able to work in a profession that is generally very well paid. If OP has $500k he is in fact probably among top 1% of the richest people on this planet.. If you're less lucky and work as a truck driver somewhere in poor country, then life is extremely hard...
I would agree with you on one thing: no matter what your conditions are, you can e.g. go out and start picking up trash and cleaning up your neighborhood. I am sure it is meaningful, someone will appreciate it sooner or later, someone might even join and help. And if not, at least you have cleaner neighborhood.
Once someone leaves a company, their work generally fades into oblivion. Almost immediately, too.
Are you around 25? I used to feel as you do. But at 34, I'm with OP.
Companies literally don't care whether you die. Why would you pour your heart and soul into something so soulless?
When I felt as you did, it ended up causing interpersonal conflicts when my vision of "good" didn't match my coworkers'. If you pour your heart and soul into something, and then everyone disagrees that it's good, then empirically you were a net negative for the team. Strike two for soulpouring.
I understand you might want to remain anonymous, but it's also telling that you didn't link to any examples of the work that you're proud of.
My point is, try not to judge others for not feeling as you do. Empathy is a difficult art, but it's worthwhile. It wasn't till I was diagnosed with narcolepsy that most of my work history made sense in hindsight -- zero companies were tolerant to missed meetings, with the thankful exception of my current role. (I wrote about my experiences here: https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1392213804684038150)
And no matter how much you care about your work, I bet you don't pour your heart and soul into meetings. So it always felt like the world cared about things I didn't, which in turn made me stop caring beyond professionalism.
But professionalism has merit. Once I detached my ego, I was able to take orders well, and to execute someone else's vision well. "Tool" is another name for that sort of person. And although I don't enjoy being a tool, I'm well-compensated for it, and the counterparty and I both walk away happy.
But it doesn't matter, because one goofball VP doesn't shake my faith in myself and the meaningfulness of the work that myself and my colleagues are doing. You might have lost faith but that doesn't mean other people should too. The GP wasn't just musing about his own life. He very explicitly said you and came across as saying your life doesn't matter if work is the thing that matters to you, because your work will never matter unless you're Gates. I don't accept that and I won't empathize with that conclusion. Because it's demoralizing and insulting to everyone who's working hard. If his truth was accepted as everyone's truth, then could you imagine how unpleasant the world would be? The simple fact is that your family matters and your work matters too. Regardless of whatever misfortune or doom and gloom you may have encountered on your journey.
Consider an alternate universe where you were never allowed to feel like an all-star, because you were never able to show up for meetings on time, and people got progressively madder at you regardless of how much soul or effort you put in.
We’re probably two sides of the same coin. You got lucky at all your jobs, and I got unlucky. But it certainly made me think twice about thinking badly of people who get fired, regardless of official reasons.
(Your manager seemed to actually care about you on a personal level? That ~never happens.)
I think you're dramatically underestimating how much it matters to be punctual in the vast majority of companies, regardless of whether your code output is reliable.
As for punctuality, there are many people who are punctual but couldn't code their way out of paperback, let alone fight they way out of a soaking wet one :)
Guess who'll be brought in to the rescue when they predictibly fail?
Your perspective matters a lot. It will color your actions. Punctuality or even code reliability ultimately doesn't matter. What matters is if you can bring more money to the company, one way or another. If you are doing sales meetings, it may be punctuality. If you are doing tech work on the core infrastructure, it may be code reliability. Find your own niche, surrounded by people who like you and need the unique strengths you bring to the table.
By the way, sign up at http://www.hnreplies.com/ and you never have to worry about missing replies, or use karma as a reply indicator.
LOL
You know nothing about me! A meeting before 11a has about 20% chances I will attend, tops. And even if, by chance, I happen to be there, I won't have much to contribute before my 2nd redbull.
Yet, somehow, I've found a way to make it work, by focusing on my strengths and what I can bring to the table, and moving myself to the right environment.
So I'm telling you, your perspectives limit you. Several people also have tried to tell you. But it seems you want to ignore that, maybe in a desire to be in the right because the alternative might be threatening to your self identity/the wisdom of your past decisions?
It may seem harsh for me to tell that, but some people like to double down on their errors, as (re)claiming agency can be frightening at first.
Well, whatever, if you are like that, and it works for you, why not?
> By the way, sign up at http://www.hnreplies.com/ and you never have to worry about missing replies, or use karma as a reply indicator.
I'm way too lazy for that :) It kinda works this way (unless when I forget what the karma was at the day before, oopsies), and HN is not important enough to me to make it worth being distracted by email/push notifications.
Maybe one day dang or someone will add a colored notification, a bit like reddit?
That I could use!
I do feel that the most productive course of action is to end this conversation, though. There are more enjoyable ways to spend one’s birthday.
Suffice to say, I have no identity. But if one day you were to go blind, and then listen to someone telling you with a straight face that it really doesn’t matter, you’ll feel what I felt in this thread.
“Think of me~~ Think of me fond-ly, when we say good-bye~~ Remember me, once in awhile~~ please promise me you’ll try~~” as the song goes.
I also worked on some ATM software at the same company, but it was pre-windows and I doubt it's running many places, much less being sold still.
So do you know anyone from MS who played part except Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer? I would attribute the guy who invented C# and TypeScript a significant impact, however I don't even know his name without googleing it.
I've followed his career for 2 decades using his tooling because he has the sense of style and expertise to create development tooling that was generations ahead of the competition, the best I've ever found from trying so many languages. He's also a really personable and humble genius based on the relatively few videos and interviews available. In my opinion he's the Michael Jordan of software, though he's more humble!
But, mellowing with age, I'm slowly getting over that. :-) (Also, Khan should just fucking have paid him better.)
What is noteworthy is how he has used his wealth in his philanthropic efforts to eradicate disease and suffering. That deserves kudos.
>Over the years, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation had poured millions of dollars into anti–sex trafficking groups, among many other causes, including $5 million to the evangelical group International Justice Mission, which is perhaps most known for conducting dramatic brothel raids in Southeast Asia. At the time, international sex workers’ rights groups condemned the grant and IJM, but nearly no one else drew attention to the traumatic arrests and threats of deportations alleged by sex workers whose workplaces were raided.
Gates Foundation targeted workers and clients while Gates used an actual trafficker to help build his own reputation, hoping Epstein would help help himself to the Nobel prize. This is typically neoliberal philanthropy - address the worst effects (through surveillance tech for cops at that) without addressing the structural problem. Let's not get too excited about a billionaire technocrat's repentance.
Well, yeah, kind of... But what is also at least as noteworthy is how he got that wealth. His philanthropy since he retired has only begun to make up for the stifling hand his evil empire laid over computing for decades.
I don't understand the downvotes here. In 100 years or so, practically no one is going to remember that Bill Gates created a shitty operating system back in the 20th century, but there will probably be statues of him around the world for his philanthropic work.
Take a look at the current "feminism" movement that aims to empower women to be equal to men in the job market. What has happened in the West is that women are realising by the age of 40 they have a great job, but no kids or long term relationship to speak of. Instead they have surrounded themselves with cats :(
(not saying all Feminism is bad - it's done a lot of good in other aspects)
If a woman has a career the government can tax their earnings and somebody like Jeff Bezos has the value of their stock holdings increase by some multiple of the earnings created. Contrast that to unpaid domestic work which doesn’t contribute to either but does contribute to the welfare of the family.
Manicur Olson points out that large groups (50% of the population) have the most difficult time organizing on their own behalf, whereas small special interest groups that are more concentrated are much more effective at getting what they want. The most effective social movements have both an elite and mass component.
And guess which of those parts the movement as a whole is usually most useful for.
1.) Start dating. It might be a drag and maybe embarrassing at times, but obviously not being a loser having saved up half a mil in 10 years, you will probably find someone. Don't buy into that Hollywood "soulmate" crap. More likely than not there is already someone you know or at max someone one graph edge away which will be a perfectly fine partner for the rest of your life. So finding that person will keep you occupied for 2-5 years.
2.) Get kids. Having never imagined to be a father and now having three kids, I have to admit I always feel sorry for people who don't have kids. I have a hard time to see any relevance in a life without children anymore. This might be complete bs but certainly floats my boat. I got my "finding meaning in life" completely covered by getting those three buggers into a good position for their life. That will keep me busy for the next 15 years.
3.) Don't take your job too seriously. There is Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates and Henry Ford but for 99.99% percent of the people here on HN (me and presumably you included) what you do in your work life will not really matter for generations to come. It pays the bills, it should be interesting enough not to bore you to death, you should have colleagues that are in their majority "friend material". That's it.
I always imagine my live as a pizza with three slices: personal (some sport, watching movies with friends, reading books, etc.), family and work. Ideally, each one should be about a third of the pizza, ie. have a third of your attention and time. There are times when this is not possible but it should be the state you are striving towards.