News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by nappy-doo on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:19PM (#30185638)
The vitriol on HN for FB is something else.

The earnings for this company are truly staggering. They made 11$/user. Their earnings were up 34% year-over-year – on a base of 29B dollars. They made 10B more this year than they did last year, and the comments in here are all about, "boy Apple fucked them, and Meta suxor!"

You people are nuts.

While I don't love FB as an entity, as a business they are making fucking bank. They are running a printing press, and the world is eating it up. Y'all need to switch to decaf or something. Their numbers are truly staggering.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by magicjosh on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:26PM (#30185752)
This is a tech community, not a "making bank" community. You may be looking for a subreddit on investing for the reactions you're expecting.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by notacoward on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:44PM (#30186006)
This is a venture-backed tech community, so it's pretty much about making bank. Also, it regularly celebrates big rounds and exits for other ethically questionable companies, so there's really no moral high ground to be had here.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by hadlock on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:40PM (#30185959)
A lot of us work for tech companies we may own shares in, or have options to buy. Knowing where the leaders in the market are going (up, down, flat) is, at worst, a weak signal of how tangential markets will trend in the coming months. Maybe this is less relevant to someone under 30, but as a lot of us creep into our early and late 40s, having a clearer picture of where we might end up in retirement is something many people have a keen interest in.

FAANG stock trends, like it or not, dictate the larger tech sector, and right now 2/5 just took a 20% hit in the space of a week.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by Miraste on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:19PM (#30186439)
Y Combinator is a venture capital company that focuses on tech. This board has a sizable investment focused community.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by gxs on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:30PM (#30185804)
This is literally an article and comment about Facebook's finances.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by magicjosh on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:37PM (#30185912)
To be fair to the other commenters, they're also talking about the nature of the article, but more about what these financials mean for the tracking products, Facebook, and the "tracking industry" broadly.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by barbecue_sauce on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:37PM (#30185916)
Why does that matter?
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by hunterb123 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:42PM (#30185979)
Because it's the topic of the comments?

What matters more than the article we're all commenting on?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by nathanaldensr on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:24PM (#30185723)
What does vitriol for Facebook have to do with how much money they made? You're post is one giant non-sequitur.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by randomsearch on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:38PM (#30185929)
FB represents everything that hackers despise. That is why a site full of hackers despises them.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by hunterb123 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:45PM (#30186015)
Social media represents everything I hate, but Twitter's usecase & userbase is further up in toxicity than Facebook imo.

I wouldn't say FB represents everything I hate, as I mainly use it as a contact book.

"Hacker News" also hates crypto, Tesla, Brave, and other random things and I don't think the same way about. (I wonder why that is? </rhetorical>)

TLDR: speak for yourself, not all "hackers".

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by jseliger on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:40PM (#30185951)
It's been like this on HN since at least 2018: https://jakeseliger.com/2018/11/14/is-there-an-actual-facebo...
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by wutbrodo on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:20PM (#30185661)
HN is worse than default subreddits when it comes to a handful of topics, and <any big tech company> is the most prominent category. There's plenty to criticize FB for, but the commenter community here gets truly unhinged whenever one of these topics comes up.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by rvz on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:43PM (#30185992)
> While I don't love FB as an entity, as a business they are making fucking bank. They are running a printing press, and the world is eating it up. Y'all need to switch to decaf or something. Their numbers are truly staggering.

Precisely. It's actually a very long term battle between Meta, Apple and Google. Not even a widespread outage can stop them.

It would be a mistake to write them off immediately over this atrocious earnings call, no matter how much I think of them as a mafia. Business-wise, it is far from over.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ohashi on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:23PM (#30185702)
We can't be critical of a company that makes people miserable? That weakens democracy? That enables violence and hate? Just because they make a lot of money we should be cheering?

Oh wow, they made $11! Let's forget everything else.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by dang on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:21PM (#30197369)
Please don't take HN threads further into tedious flamewars. Those have nothing to do with intellectual curiosity, and are therefore off topic here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by bko on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:37PM (#30185915)
Be critical all you want, just don't try to gaslight by saying they're on the verge of collapse and everyone hates them. They're extremely popular and billions log in every day because they apparently get some kind of value out of the product
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by moonshinefe on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:46PM (#30186023)
Literally nobody was arguing this, though. The OP's outburst about the "vitriol" on this topic also seems pretty overly dramatic, tbh, and has done wonders to derail things because it hurls personal insults.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by pm90 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:44PM (#30185999)
Everyone that knows the extent to which they're complicit in destroying societies does hate them. As for their popularity, yeah I guess you could call a monopoly "popular" but that's just because there isn't effective competition... because of Facebook's anti-competitive practices.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by stu2b50 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:27PM (#30185771)
There’s a difference between hating Meta for its ethics and hating Meta as a money making machine. People are doing the latter and that’s pretty silly. Meta is, however unethically, a good entity at the goal of making money.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by pebble on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:32PM (#30185838)
They do the latter by compromising on the former.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by lhorie on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:09PM (#30186325)
I mean, if you don't have a stock position, why parrot the same tired narrative? It's not adding any insight and it's not like their stock never had downswing before.

At one point the crowd here was like oh fb ipo so embarrassing, to oh fb eng so hot much react, to oh fb so evil now, crash and burn pls. Such fickleness. Surely we can do better than that.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:25PM (#30186532)
Facebook is a machine that makes people parrot tired narratives that are devoid of insight.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by noslenwerdna on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:47AM (#30189476)
What an insightful comment!
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:52PM (#30186812)
Apparently so is HN
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ohashi on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:13PM (#30187569)
So do you work for facebook or is your only purpose on HN to try to defend the company?
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:56PM (#30187945)
I am interested in the virtual reality space, and started posting because I was frustrated by the spread of misinformation/propaganda. Ironically, there is a lot of misinformation about Facebook. I'm sure my contributions are mostly meaningless, but it has at least been interesting to follow discussions.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:01PM (#30187979)
Really? What do you think of as misinformation about Facebook?
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:28PM (#30188197)
How about we start with the claim from the recent leaks that they cause depression or body image issues? The leaked document in question [1] should be considered for further research, but it is hardly evidence of this claim.

There is also a popular claim that Facebook contributed to genocide. Here's an article [2]. Facebook hired an investigator that concluded that their involvement was without their knowledge. Tragic and reckless, sure. Intentional? I doubt it. I think it's an issue of scale and navigating complex regulatory and social structures.

Shadow profiles are another hot topic. The big issue is that, if you agreed to let Facebook read your contacts, it linked your friends phone numbers to distinct 'profiles' in the background. Presumably these could also be tied to their advertising profiles.

Cambridge Analytica was a company that abused a bug in API access (allegedly unbeknownst to Facebook - this exploit was available to all 3rd party apps) to collect information not only about willing participants, but their friends as well.

As for VR, there are numerous claims and hesitancy about privacy abuse through tracking and sensing technologies that are essential to VR development. I appreciate some hesitancy, but it is a bit sensationalized.

Beyond all of this, there are lots of claims of monopoly abuse. There is actually an FTC lawsuit that could lead to a landmark antritust case, but that is yet to be seen. I don't really think they have a monopoly as there are numerous competitors.

I apologize as I don't have links for everything, but that's an overview of my thoughts. I think Facebook is simply navigating the regulatory and social landscape in a way that any novel company or platform would be required to navigate. I think we often forget that this technology is new and will experience growing pains, even if at such massive scale. I think a lot of the blame for the fraying of U.S. democracy, the decline in mental health, and other social issues are incorrectly attributed to things that have brought change in the past few decades. More realistically, I think the U.S. (where most of the claims are relevant) is simply declining after several hundred years of abusive reign as the world's superpower.

[1]: https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Instagram-Te...

[2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/06/technology/myanmar-facebo...

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:09AM (#30193358)
> Facebook hired an investigator that concluded that their involvement was without their knowledge

It seems like you simply take Facebook at their word.

> More realistically, I think the U.S. (where most of the claims are relevant) is simply declining after several hundred years of abusive reign as the world's superpower.

You do realize that you have provided no actual explanation for the decline.

Can you explain how your account, with a meaningless username, was created in 2014, only to become active around 9 months ago?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:02PM (#30196086)
Just as with Facebook it seems I am guilty until proven innocent. If you want to believe that they intentionally enabled genocide in a foreign country with politics that neither of us could likely begin to understand, then fine. I have been more than clear, and yet you ask for more. How can I offer explanation to the decline of a regime? Is it not obvious that mental health has been in decline for decades? Or that economic inequality is ever-growing? The average lifespan is in decline. Houselessness is on the rise. You balk at genocide? Our government regularly commits genocide on the scale of the holocaust [1] [2] [3], _with intent_.

Who should be held accountable for all of this? Facebook? What a joke. If they are truly guilty, regulators have all the power in the world to hold them accountable.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:01PM (#30197029)
> How can I offer explanation to the decline of a regime? Is it not obvious that mental health has been in decline for decades? Or that economic inequality is ever-growing? The average lifespan is in decline. Houselessness is on the rise.

Yes, and Facebook is contributing to the acceleration of those things.

Is that not something you have considered?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:29PM (#30197487)
No. These problems would certainly exist even if Facebook never did. Like I said, Facebook could be dismantled by regulators today. It won't do anything.

Do you think Facebook or other social media are the main contributors to the acceleration of those things? Why?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Thursday February 03, 2022 @06:35PM (#30200618)
Ok, so you deny that Facebook contributes to any problems. Understood.

Can you explain why your account was created in 2014 but was only activated 9 months ago to begin defending Facebook?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by lhorie on Friday February 04, 2022 @07:47PM (#30215764)
I've no horse in the game, but it sounds like you have a pet hatred towards Facebook, to the extent that you don't seem to realize that there's a difference between "facebook was used as a tool in an undesirable way by people with ill intent" (similar to how Parler was used by a specific segment of the voter base around the last US presidential election) vs the much more farfetched "facebook employees deliberately rigged the system somehow to promote violence in myanman and anyone that could be remotely perceived to be siding with FB must be shilling for it" conspiracy theory. It's an entirely reasonable position to shake one's head at the media's portrayal of a political instability through a interwebz-colored lens, but also dislike what did happen in the FB platform as a result of the simple fact that people involved in the conflict happen to use the internet.

The point your parent poster is making is that sensationalism and the easily outraged tend to ignore the nuance between unintended butterfly effect consequences that are hard to prevent vs deliberate malice by the company itself for its own profit.

It's a good idea to reflect a bit on hatred to see if it's really warranted. It's very easy to think "oh look at all these negative things I heard, facebook should shut down". What's hard is to realize that what you read online and your mental categorization of things doesn't always neatly mirror reality accurately. Nobody thinks we should ban chocolate on the grounds that violent people eat it and the rest of us would still have food even if chocolate was gone; we only get molded to think this way about things like Facebook because of media narratives.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by zepto on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:56PM (#30187943)
Their purpose is to defend the company against humorous comments.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by lnxg33k1 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:39PM (#30185942)
I agree with you on almost everything but we can't blame meta for weak democracy, underpaid teachers, private schools, lack of social programs, absent social services et al are weakening democracy
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by brokencode on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:27PM (#30185766)
Sure, but try being critical about something that they can actually be faulted for rather than their incredible earnings. The OP was just pointing out that a lot of the criticism here made no sense.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by bot41 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:25PM (#30185740)
Why post emotive comments on a financial post?
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:29PM (#30185790)
Financial loss can be pretty emotional.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by noslenwerdna on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:46AM (#30189469)
It doesn't weaken democracy any more than other social media. And if facebook goes down it's just going to be replaced with tiktok or something worse.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:03PM (#30186264)
What, does public opinion shield you from the burden of proof? These are outrageous claims. I pray for legislation to put this all to rest.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ohashi on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:04PM (#30187489)
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:45PM (#30187841)
Evidence is a horribly abused term. Do you really believe any of this would admissible in a court of law?
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ohashi on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:59PM (#30187967)
So it went from 'these claims are outrageous' to they wouldn't hold up in a court of law? You're a facebook shill and you're embarrassing yourself. You're not fighting misinformation, you are the disinformation campaign.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by aierou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @10:03PM (#30187996)
My intentions were clear in my first post - legislation will be the deciding factor. This back and forth is meaningless.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by benlivengood on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:43PM (#30185991)
If democracy can't survive Facebook then it probably was doomed already. Similarly with trying to live in civil society when there are already fellow citizens full of violence and hatred; FB might give voice to what is already there and already broken but isn't really the cause.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by agalunar on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:52PM (#30186118)
Although that's sort of like saying "if an ant can't survive being scorched by a magnifying glass, it was probably doomed to burn in the sun anyway".

What you're saying may be true – I've no idea. But I'm not sure we can yet dismiss the idea that social technology like Facebook, used as it is, might push us over a line we wouldn't otherwise cross.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by actaeon169 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:58PM (#30186198)
The trouble with democracy is, and always was, the demos
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by errcorrectcode on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:37PM (#30185911)
I look at it as a value-investing opportunity. Non-investors and vacillating ones can scoff as I laugh all the way to said bank.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by simpsond on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:31PM (#30186594)
Growth is plateauing looking at earnings and guidance, so their market cap will reflect fair market value. Growth stocks need to accelerate to maintain high valuations. That and the market is extra sensitive right now IMO. Their numbers are staggering, but earnings and guidance isn’t.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by dralley on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:50PM (#30186090)
> The vitriol on HN for FB is something else.

> The earnings for this company are truly staggering. ...

> You people are nuts.

> While I don't love FB as an entity, as a business they are making fucking bank. ...

Purdue Pharmaceuticals made a lot of money, too.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by pessimizer on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:27PM (#30185769)
The market, which is the subject, seems to have more vitriol than HN about their current performance.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by sorry_outta_gas on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:22PM (#30185688)
I get the feeling it's a lot of people bitter they failed the interview process
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ummonk on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:36PM (#30185890)
I worked at Facebook thinking it was trying to improve and have a positive impact on the world. Working there made me realize that the #1 goal was to increase active users, user engagement, and profitability, and having a responsible impact on the world would take a back seat to this. Additionally, it was clear that Zuck’s vision for the world is to create a universal platform through which the world connects and socializes, and the recent metaverse push is a dystopian continuation of this vision.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by moralestapia on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:46PM (#30186024)
>thinking it was trying to improve and have a positive impact on the world

Were you like a very early employee or are you just that naive?

FB's intent became quite clear, quite fast in their history. Like, remember when they became so famous for their lack of ethics that even a hollywood movie came out whose plot is pretty much only about that?

And that was 12(!) years ago ... so, I am truly wondering, from where exactly did you get this idea of a company trying to change the world for good?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by ARandomerDude on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:24PM (#30185731)
Can't speak for others but I've never wanted to work at FB, never will, and can honestly say FB is a resume negative when I'm looking at candidates.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by jpgvm on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:44PM (#30186002)
I wouldn't go so far to say that FB would ever be a resume negative. It really depends on what their experience there was like. Some really great people went to work for FB after making bank a Google in the early days and I would gladly work with any of the folks from that stage of FB. Post that period there was some serious internal culture problems (performance culture SMH) and yeah... I would say most of the good folks (that weren't properly isolated from that misery) left and there was a dark age of FB engineering as a result. I think they recovered from this somewhat but these days it would need to be a case by case basis when I interview a candidate and get an understanding of their time at FB, what they worked on etc and with who.
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by nathanaldensr on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:25PM (#30185744)
I would never even consider working for Facebook no matter their interview process. They are a loathsome company led by a psychopath. They could offer me a job right now with no interview and I wouldn't take it.

Some people can't be bought. What about you?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by skinnymuch on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:08PM (#30186306)
Nearly every one can be bought. Choosing to be holier than thou while drawing a line of Facebook is awful, they can’t buy me, but otherwise not doing the same to the majority of public/big companies who are also ethically compromised, is not so much better.

Yes, I’d take a high paying job at Facebook. I live in a status quo, unfair, corrupt capitalist society in the west. I know I have to play the game.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:20PM (#30187627)
>Nearly every one can be bought.

Sure, if we're just talking about comparing generalizations or wild scenarios, but in context that person probably has access to other opportunities that rival or exceed Facebook's comp or social impact.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by fossuser on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:35PM (#30185874)
Betting against HN sentiment is usually a good way to make money.

I hope Zuckerberg pulls off Meta and what he's trying to do. He's an extremely good CEO, and the alternative is more power in the hands of TikTok and CCP controlled social media which I think is a lot worse.

I'm glad to see the investment they're making in trying to build a new platform, I hope we see AR hardware from Apple soon too.

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by unsui on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:26PM (#30185756)
The vitriol is well-deserved.

While there is no such thing as a perfectly-ethical company within a Capitalist framework, there are degrees of ethical behavior that rightly influence a company's reputation.

Would I choose to work or support a company that clubs baby seals?

Less hyperbolic, would I choose to support a company that continually seeks to profit from promoting extremism in dialogue, creating self-perpetuating echo-chambers which have real-world consequences (re: the very real danger to American democratic processes), in addition to brainwashing people's parents into believing in utter hogwash and tearing families apart?

Yes, they are making bank. But at what cost? And should that cost influence your interaction with said company?

Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by errcorrectcode on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:49PM (#30186076)
Fendi entered the chat. "We object! We don't use barbaric clubs anymore, we use proper pistols to dispatch baby animals in order to steal their hides to make Predator human trophy garmets from them. Please browse our winter collection."
Re:Meta shares drop 20% on Q4 earnings miss, weak outlook by endisneigh on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:34PM (#30185859)
poor guidance.