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Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by xanaxagoras on Thursday January 06, 2022 @06:48PM (#29832417)
I have this junior engineer DM'ing me right now and I've been ignoring it because I don't want to deal with him and I have my own work to do. I'm reading through your comment here thinking "hey, I'm pretty good at walking that line, bothering the professor when appropriate, not waiting too long and not asking him for help too soon"... and then it occurred to me this guy is probably bothering the professor where I'm the professor. Oops. Need to work on being more charitable with my time.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by dbcurtis on Thursday January 06, 2022 @08:24PM (#29833436)
I have a theory about why it is so difficult for great IC's to make the jump to being a great manager. As an individual contributor, you need two things most of all: 1. quiet uninterrupted time to focus your mind and get into flow, and 2. quick responses to any blockers or questions that you have so that you can get back into the work. As a manager, a key part of your job now requires you to be infinitely interruptable, so that you can get those answers back to your juniors quickly, and also, you must protect your juniors from as many interruptions as you can. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: Make sure you are not that interruption. If you want to ask your junior a question, HOLD IT and batch your questions, if at all possible, so that you are not a source of interruptions.

Beyond that, have clear goals, and communicate them clearly. Most people want to do the right thing. The better they understand the goals, the better able they will be to make decisions on their own that don't need adjustment later.

You need to encourage your juniors to ask questions as soon as they need to get clarification or unblocked. To do that, you need to embrace the interruptions, that is your job now. Both the interruptions from your juniors so that they get unblocked, and the interruptions from pesky people that will distract your crew must be short-circuited by you before they get to your team.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by Nbox9 on Friday January 07, 2022 @01:13AM (#29835617)
> I have a theory about why it is so difficult for great IC's to make the jump to being a great manager

I find it very odd that most ICs take the path of management. This seems like an unnatural transition, like going from being a minister to playing in a death metal band.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by sangnoir on Friday January 07, 2022 @03:00AM (#29836329)
There really isn't a pipeline for for entry-level managers in tech: I've never heard of anyone interning for, or graduating from college and managing ICs as an entry-level job. However, those managers are needed, and have got to come from somewhere, so here we are, looking to start a death metal band at a seminary.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by marcus_holmes on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:14AM (#29836899)
As someone who's done both (dev and dev management), it's more that it's very hard to manage dev teams unless you've been a dev. We have all experienced the clueless non-technical manager who doesn't understand why any of this has to be this way and keeps pushing for "common sense" things like accurate estimates for project development.

There's also nothing stopping a good dev from being a great manager, or vice versa. A good dev learns to listen well, which is also a key skill as a manager. A dev creates working systems out of conceptual components, a manager creates working teams out of actual people. The biggest difference is that there's no Stack Overflow for management - every situation has to be treated as unique and you can't just copy-paste the solution.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by q-big on Friday January 07, 2022 @05:21AM (#29837412)
> We have all experienced the clueless non-technical manager who doesn't understand why any of this has to be this way and keeps pushing for "common sense" things like accurate estimates for project development.

This is in my opinion actually quite easy to explain to managers: asking for time estimates in software development is like asking for time estimates in proving a deep conjecture in mathematics.

Since every economics major has to take some courses in mathematics (which at least in Germany are often there to weed out bad students), this should not be difficult to understand for managers.

The problem rather is that these clueless non-technical managers insist that this perspective is simply wrong and theirs is right.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by marcus_holmes on Friday January 07, 2022 @09:45AM (#29839656)
Having never had a manager with any clue about maths, I found the golf analogy works better:

"Why can't you hit a hole in one with every golf shot? You know exactly where the hole is, you know how much the ball weighs, you know the length of the club, you know how hard you need to hit it and in what direction. So why isn't every golf shot a hole in one? Because, obviously, you may have miscalculated how hard and at what angle you should hit the ball, you may not have the skill to hit the ball exactly right, and any amount of random factors can affect the ball between you hitting it and it arriving at the green. Same for software development"

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by q-big on Friday January 07, 2022 @09:59AM (#29839820)
> Having never had a manager with any clue about maths,

This is exactly my point: at least in Germany, the compulsory "mathematics for economists" courses are there to weed out student and are thus feared among the respective students.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by dusted on Friday January 07, 2022 @02:34AM (#29836151)
Since I'm both an IC and a death metal connoisseur, I'll argue that it's more like going from playing in a death metal band to being a minister ;)
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by 1_player on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:21AM (#29836962)
Indeed, I got promoted to a managerial position, which seemed a nice career opportunity for me, but my productivity and happiness tanked so much that when I had the opportunity two years later to go back to just being an engineer with no one waiting for my input, I just took it. This is how I learned that while I think I can be a decent manager, the skillset of managing people are totally different than being an engineer and it's very hard, at least for me, to context switch effectively between the two. And in that case I'd rather be an engineer.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by jokethrowaway on Friday January 07, 2022 @12:15PM (#29841727)
I'm fairly sure it's done mainly because if you want to make more you need to become a director of something.

In companies when expensive tech only people are allowed you see less techies among managers.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by benhurmarcel on Friday January 07, 2022 @05:32PM (#29845793)
In many industries that’s the fastest and best way to get paid well.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by biermic on Friday January 07, 2022 @03:15AM (#29836421)
Doesn't have time for junior dev, because has so much own work. Then hangs on hackernews :D
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by OnlyMortal on Thursday January 06, 2022 @07:36PM (#29832939)
If your a senior dev it’s part of your role to help the junior ones out. You should cultivate that behaviour as it brings up the quality of your colleagues and builds work relationships.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by pc86 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @08:29PM (#29833477)
I draw a corollary to how graduate medical education works. You go into residency a fresh doctor with zero applicable skills. You may not even be CPR certified, but you're an MD/DO, and you've matched into a residency. You know less about actually helping people than a nurse who's been on the job for a month. You spend the next 3-7 years working 80-100 hours a week learning your chosen specialty. You become an absolute expert at your specific field. If you're in a surgical field you spend thousands of hours practicing and performing the surgeries you'll be responsible for. You may or may not specialize even further with a fellowship for another 1-4 years.

Then, when you graduate and can start making real money (probably), if you work at a hospital that does resident education, you're almost immediately expected to let the residents do as much as they can safely do, so they can learn. You go from working 80 hours a week performing surgery after surgery at a senior resident to working 30 hours a week watching the senior resident perform surgery.

Similarly (and admittedly it isn't a perfect analogy) as a junior and mid-level you're spending all this time learning how to write real software. Most of it's bad and especially at the junior level you're going to spend a couple years being more trouble than you're worth in terms of productivity. But by the time you're a senior, when you theoretically know what you're doing, you're going to have to spend most or a large portion of your time helping out the juniors in your org.

If you don't want to do that, you shouldn't be accepting senior positions. Or at least, go work somewhere where they don't hire juniors.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by thegrimmest on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:28PM (#29834467)
What if you just want to write software and not be responsible for mentorship? Why do capable individual contributors always have to be roped into leadership?
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by indigochill on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:14AM (#29836895)
> What if you just want to write software and not be responsible for mentorship?

At a certain point, you probably know considerably more about the work than the people working around you. You might say you develop "seniority". At that point, the balance of value between your individual contributions and the knowledge you can share with others reaches a tipping point.

If you're limiting the value you're bringing to the company to only individual contributions, you're capping the value you can bring the company and by correlation the compensation you're due.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by BurningFrog on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:45PM (#29834578)
Work at places that don't hire junior devs.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by forty on Friday January 07, 2022 @07:53AM (#29838532)
I think there is a limit of the efficiency of a single person. At some point, helping out others to be more efficient is more efficient than doing it all by yourself.

With that said, I don't see anything wrong with stagnating at your peak IC efficiency if that's what makes you happy.

I agree with sibling which says that mentoring is not leadership. Helping out others is not the same as giving them instructions or evaluating performances for example. However I can understand that someone would like none of that.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by pjerem on Friday January 07, 2022 @04:18AM (#29836934)
As long as you are not your own boss (and even in this case, tbf), you are likely to not do only what you "want", because you are not the one defining what is your job.

Honestly, it's a weird remark. Pretty much all jobs on this planet have aspects you wish you don't have to do. You work for your employer and your employer needs you to train the juniors. If you don't want to do that, change for an employer who only recruit senior engineers, if you can.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by thegrimmest on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:09AM (#29839970)
Employment is a negotiation, always has been. Senior technical staff often negotiate from a position of strength.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by ljm on Friday January 07, 2022 @06:55AM (#29838042)
I'm not sure I see mentoring as leadership as much as I see it as passing the experience along to someone less senior than you. Or did you become a capable IC in a vacuum, without the guidance of more senior engineers?

Beyond that, you could go into contracting. Do the work, point to your contract whenever someone asks something else of you, move on after 3-6 months, rinse and repeat.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by thegrimmest on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:08AM (#29839946)
I mean, actually, mostly yes. I've usually been the last stop for technical help since school. There hasn't been anyone I can go to, so I've had to figure everything out on my own. I guess I'm wanting to work with senior peers more so than constantly dealing with juniors who seem to get lazy because they know I can solve their problems for them, often trivially.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by sylphaenos on Friday January 07, 2022 @07:53PM (#29847292)
Not wanting to help juniors so they're left to struggle the way you did seems incredibly devoid of empathy. I could describe my career the same way you have, but mentoring juniors is now my favorite part of the job. When you were a junior, would you have been satisfied regurgitating a senior's answer without understanding it, or would you have wanted to learn? If you were into learning, why assume nobody else will be?

When pairing with juniors, I avoid directly solving problems for them as much as possible–lessons tend to stick better when you ask leading questions and let them discover solutions for themselves. Perhaps this technique would also work to filter out "lazy" questions.

Working with a mix of super competent developers at all levels has really driven home for me that everyone is better at something, and worse at something, than you are. I've learned lots of new things from developers with less experience than me. I've also worked with many devs with senior titles who were worse off than most juniors.

Ultimately it's okay to find mentoring unenjoyable, but if this describes you, please stick to teams with most/all seniors and don't agree to mentor even if pressured. Attitudes like this can really exacerbate imposter syndrome for juniors, and I've seen it damage several careers.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by thegrimmest on Friday January 07, 2022 @11:13PM (#29848560)
I'm not sure how not wanting to deal with juniors is devoid of empathy, much like not wanting to look after children isn't either. In either case, I don't see how a high degree of empathy is a prerequisite for technical excellence at any level. Leave the feelings at home.

When I was a junior, I would have been greatly satisfied by more time and attention from seniors, as I would be today grateful for more time and attention from people in differing specialities, where I am quite junior. We do however live in the real world, where these people's time is extremely valuable, and I wouldn't dare disrespect it by asking them trivial questions. I would value 10mins of their time and the context switch they pay to help me on the order of days of my own. And if I do resort to bothering them, I do so with an attitude of utmost humility, akin to digital dogeza.

I get frustrated when folks fail to do any of this. I regard is a breach of professional etiquette that unfortunately seems all too common. I've found myself responding "Try harder" or "LMGTFY" to these sorts of inquiries, which is about as polite as I can muster.

> everyone is better at something

It seems that this would be trivially easy to prove false, and very difficult to prove true. I've certainly met developers with nothing uniquely useful to contribute, in spite of best attempts at coaching them.

> imposter syndrome

I'd like to note that I'm actually extremely forgiving of mistakes, even very expensive ones, so long as they're honest. We all make them, and it's really on me to ensure that processes are in place and enforced to prevent the most critical sorts of them. But you don't know what you don't know. It's more the "I'm a baby, please hold my hand" attitude that I'm frankly somewhat disgusted by. If that describes (hypothetical) you, then perhaps some imposter syndrome is in good order.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by alsetmusic on Saturday January 08, 2022 @03:07PM (#29855620)
> I'm frankly somewhat disgusted

I wouldn’t want to work on a team with someone who has such an attitude. I’m very grateful to work in an environment where we all want to help one another. This really reminds me how good I’ve got it.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by thegrimmest on Saturday January 08, 2022 @05:20PM (#29857065)
Do you really work in a team where people are not at all expected to try to help themselves?
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by Nbox9 on Friday January 07, 2022 @01:16AM (#29835641)
> Why do capable individual contributors always have to be roped into leadership?

Training your replacement is how the cogs in the machine reproduce.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by wanderingmind on Thursday January 06, 2022 @10:15PM (#29834394)
And yet a junior dev who LCd for a few months will get paid way more than a MD in residency. It might be interesting to see if the quality of people (measured with IQ) or some other simple metrics who pursue medicine relative to other fields have gone down over the past decade.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by Communitivity on Friday January 07, 2022 @10:52AM (#29840534)
Let's say you are the cryptid 10x engineer/tech lead, supervising a team of 8 junior engineers. You can spend 4 hours, the equivalent of a 40hr week of lesser mortals (this math is almost never true in my experience), or spend a half hour of time on each of your junior engineers. The problem you help each of them solve is solved in 30m as opposed to the 3-4h they might have tried solving it themselves, and they've learned something that maybe saves them an hour a day. You do this twice during the week.

You've 'lost' 80h effectively of productivity for the company (remember, mythical 10x), but you've gained 104h (32h+32h+81h/day5days) from your team, for a net 24h gain.

Of course, numbers are exaggerated, but the point remains the same: if you are a tech lead helping your team succeed is your primary job, not coding/design. You are the person who connects the lines of communication, removes obstacles, mentors the team on coding and design, and gets the team moving in one direction that aligns with the customer needs.

You probably will code, to fill in gaps and help out, but personally I find it's split around 5/2/2/1 - 5 parts are working with your team to guide them and help them overcome obstacles, 2 parts communicating with management and customers, 2 parts coding/design, and 1 part administrivia/training.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by jokethrowaway on Saturday January 08, 2022 @03:07AM (#29849690)
This requires an environment where long term productivity is more important than short term productivity, it doesn't account for juniors who won't get it, no matter how hard they try, it doesn't account for juniors who will leave the company after becoming more proficient because they can't get an adequate payrise.

10x engineers can be a good match for startups where shipping now is essential and for big businesses who need something done quickly (for a change, the bigger the company, the slower everything else).

The only cons of 10x engineers is that they will burn out and that they're incredibly rare. Advising 10x engineers to help out other and collaborate is also nice to give them a bit of down time so they don't burn out and leave for the next startup with a 50% raise.

That said, it's not like HR managers are able to distinguish between senior low productivity engineers and 10x engineers, so it doesn't matter. No company will have a strategy around employees productivity.

I disagree the 10x engineer is a myth, as an hiring manager, I can easily tell you who is a 10x engineer after working with them for a year or so.

Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by quantified on Saturday January 08, 2022 @01:56PM (#29854873)
You may well be right. +1 karma for the adjustment. Mentoring/helping the juniors is part of the un-tracked/unplanned workload of the seniors.
Re:Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to... by _trampeltier on Friday January 07, 2022 @06:45AM (#29837959)
I have no trouble if somebody with less experience ask me anything, but I expect at least one or two ideas how the person thinks she would solve the problem.