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Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by netizen-936824 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:55PM (#29814064)
What does PIP stand for? I haven't run into that acronym before
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by Jemaclus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:00PM (#29814133)
Performance Improvement Plan. On paper, it's a program where management works with you to improve your weak points so you don't get fired. In practice, it's HR protecting the company by documenting reasons to fire you before they fire you.

It's rare (not unheard of, but rare) to work your way out of a PIP. In general, if you get put on a PIP, I would immediately start doing some soul-searching as to why I might be on the PIP and how I can improve AND I would start looking immediately for a new job.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by spaceisballer on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:57PM (#29814841)
I’ve only worked in the public sector and have only had to PIP people a few times. It’s almost always a sign that you need to get out. I’ve only done it when I’m at wits end with a person. They all ended up quitting before we got to the 90 days but yeah as said it’s basically a CYA move. Likely the people are low performing enough by some measure you can fire them but it’s sort of a last chance thing. And it documents where they need to improve and what they need to do, so all that is good for the employee if they want to improve (and I do believe nobody wants to do a bad job).
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ghaff on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:07PM (#29814948)
I have a good friend who manages a fairly large group at a (mostly) government subcontractor. Their description is similar. A PIP comes after someone has been completely unresponsive to requests of various kinds, isn't doing good (if any) work, etc. My sense is that a PIP, in this case, is a reluctant last resort after months of this--and hardly ever works.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by Jemaclus on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:18PM (#29859203)
> and hardly ever works.

Technically, there are two desirable outcomes to a PIP:

1) the employee improves and no longer needs to be on a PIP (rare)

2) the company successfully fires the employee and doesn't get sued because they covered their ass with a PIP

From HR's perspective (and the manager's), it is indeed the reluctant last resort, but it's essentially a win/win for the company. Either the employee improves, or they can fire them while minimizing legal risk.

In other words, it fulfills its intent quite nicely. It just doesn't always end positively for the employee. So I guess in that sense, it depends on which way you look at it.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mgkimsal on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:28PM (#29815194)
I had a friend who was put on a PIP at a smallish company. Company had 200+ people, but this satellite office in a different state had about... 8-10, and was run more or less by a single guy. He put my friend on a PIP - which was just... strange, because they'd sort of built up that office on their own initially just the 2 of them, then it grew a bit more. He PIPs he, then leaves a couple weeks later, and no one had any idea how to handle this dangling PIP. IIRC the company just erased it, and she was there for another couple of years after that, with no issues (other than bad pay and shrinking office size).
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by antihero on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:16PM (#29814337)
I got on a (non-Amazon) PIP once for not turning up on many Mondays to many times, and would have passed it (all I had to do was turn up every day I was scheduled to work for a month) but failed because I didn't turn up on NYE (mate convinced me to "stay for one" at Scala) one day before my PIP was supposedly over in the new year (totally my fault).

I feel it would have been possible to work my way out of it, I think different companies use them in different ways.

Ah well, most of the team got poached by Revolut anyway. I find WFH suits me a lot better because as long as I can go to stand up after a heavy weekend (which is a lot easier if you can do it from home) and then achieve above and beyond the rest of the week, there's a lot less anxiety.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mc32 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:56PM (#29814834)
Good advice.

No matter how much you might try to "ace" it and put in your best effort, more than 9 out of 10 times, the person will not come out of it. Anything and everything no matter how minor is likely to be used as supporting evidence. So interpret it as a notice of eviction of sorts where they pay you some months to find a new job.

Yes, there are exceptions. Thing is do you want to try your luck with HR?

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by taurath on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:30PM (#29816022)
It is the full force of the company saying “we don’t perceive you as being performant anymore”. Even on the individual level changing someone’s perceptions takes double or triple the effort to establish them in the first place.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by peakaboo on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:24PM (#29814441)
Soul searching is easy. The only people who put up with that shit are people who don't feel good enough, so they are begging their master like a dog to please, please like them!!

The cure? Don't allow corporations to set your value, specially not mad and crazy corporations like amazon and space penis.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mattnewton on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:50PM (#29814727)
Some people are genuinely hired above their level or have been coasting so long the don't realize they are coasting, and so there are legitimate uses for PIPs. That being said, I hear it's a perverse shadow of that at companies like Amazon that use quotas to go looking for reasons to fire people.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ghaff on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:45PM (#29815442)
In my experience, some people can be really oblivious. I've seen past situations where a company didn't have a formal PIP process, but it was blatantly obvious to everyone concerned--except apparently the person themselves--that they just couldn't do the job and were a massive time suck on others and weren't improving in spite of all sorts of attempts to help them. And they were totally shocked when they were fired "out of the blue."
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by bogomipz on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @09:23PM (#29818343)
Do you know is there a built-in per year PIP percentage at AWS? Does PIP involve a severance payment?
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by reducesuffering on Thursday January 06, 2022 @07:16PM (#29832729)
10%. They will all be offered about ~3 months salary (depends on tenure). Some will stay and try to work through it, some will succeed, some won't and only get ~1 month salary severance now. Amazon is really aiming for 6% actually fired, by first trying to fire 10%.

Because the rational choice is to take the high severance (being handed the PIP means your manager and manager's manager have already made up their minds against you, I've seen a coworker given an impossible task), that means that being an average Amazon engineer will have a 50% chance of being fired by your 5th year.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by Jemaclus on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:15PM (#29827408)
I have no idea. I don't work at Amazon. Typically in the tech industry, departures tend to have severance included, unless it's for something egregious (eg violence), so I would imagine it does include severance. But again, I don't work for Amazon, so no idea. :)
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by cjaro on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:58PM (#29814102)
Performance Improvement Plan. It's basically the company's way of saying "We want to fire you, but don't have a reason on the books, so here you go. In six months, pack your bags and go."
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by dudus on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:03PM (#29814166)
I respect your view and while that may be true on a lot of cases that's not what the company represents a pip to be.

A PIP is a situation where you are told you are not performing at the desired level and needs to improve. In a respectable company being on a pip can be good for you. In my personal case I was not performing well due to personal issues. Getting on a pip saved my job. It gave me the resources and attention to turn the situation around. You get a clearer plan of what you need to do and closer relationship with mentors to help you on the way.

But again if you don't improve you are fired and you have that hanging over your head.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by _moof on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:21PM (#29814399)
I've put people on PIPs. I genuinely wanted them to do better. They did. Like you said, they are a tool for laser-focusing attention on specific, well-defined issues.

There is no actual ass-covering need to put someone on a PIP. If a company in the U.S. wants to fire you, they generally don't need a reason.

Individual company cultures will, of course, vary. There are a lot of shitty managers out there.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ballenf on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:52PM (#29814772)
> If a company in the U.S. wants to fire you, they generally don't need a reason.

That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). And how do you do that? Have a PIP system in place in which the acceptable reason is documented in detail and all employees are treated consistently.

That's why PIPs are effectively termination at many companies. Even if you survive it will be permanently on your record and your opportunities for advancement will narrow significantly.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by _moof on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:24PM (#29815136)
> That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.).

They don't need to prove anything. In employment discrimination cases the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by lostcolony on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:47PM (#29815472)
It's still a risk. An assertion of discrimination, even without evidence, is going to be a painful court case. After all, "Soandso said he didn't like X people, and then fired me" is impossible to prove or disprove, but it sure can rack up some court time and lawyer fees, with the possibility of a loss in the event of an unsympathetic jury.

But a documented process, that was followed, that set defined goals, and recorded failures, is going to be a much faster and more sure trial.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by garbagecoder on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:48PM (#29815481)
Wrong. Google “Title VII burden shifting framework.” It will cost you tens of thousands to get a frivolous case dismissed. In wage/hour cases, the burden is almost entirely shifted to the employer.

Also with respect to the attorney fee provisions, in California they are almost entirely one way in practice even the ones that are loser pays in reality.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by xtracto on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:28PM (#29815189)
Right, that has also been my experience (granted, in another country where a company can fire you with no reason if they pay you 3 months severance).

For me as a manager, the PIP allowed me to set up an environment where the developer would be able to perform their job in isolation with specific, measurable and concrete tasks that do not depend on any third party.

I've successfully applied this for some devs that were doing really bad for more than 6 months, and it allowed me to find that the person was in the middle of a lot of shit. Once the developer was isolated and given specific tasks, they showed why we have hired them in the first place.

I also have let go a developer for whom the performance plan was more on the people skills side: This person was just not a team player, and was dragging the team along with him. A PIP allowed us to show him exactly why he ended up not being a match for the company.

And then there was another one who was just lazy... didn't do stuff, and after the 2nd month of the PIP he acknowledged that he was just being lazy, and waited for the PIP time to expire so that we fired him (with 3 months severance).

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by lovecg on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:46PM (#29814672)
Legally yes but large companies generally have rules in place that go beyond legal requirements. One of those rules could be “you can’t fire someone for performance reasons without putting them on a PIP first and documenting why it failed”. Middle managers have very little power in bending those rules.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by sushisource on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:44PM (#29814647)
It's not that they need a reason intrinsically, it's that if the person being fired is of a protected class, the company wants to protect against that person suing for discrimination. Those sort of suits are definitely filed without grounds sometimes, and it's expensive to prove it's baseless, so the PIP can be a way to establish cause.

All that said I agree they can be genuine. They also can be ass-covering.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by yourapostasy on Saturday January 08, 2022 @12:59AM (#29849036)
> Individual company cultures will, of course, vary. There are a lot of shitty managers out there.

Which is why I advise anyone who asks me about PIPs who I deem is sufficiently introspective to immediately secure another job and leave if they receive one. The pure game theoretic approach for employees to use is: unless they have overwhelming historical evidence their manager is someone like you, it is safer for them to assume they are in the majority lumped in with sub-optimal management (much less leadership, both activities tough as hell to pull off well), and insta-bail as soon as they can.

The challenge with PIP's is there are no governance controls around their deployment, so they are weaponized for purposes other than their purported staff development role: as budget controls (deliberately hire some people with the intention to PIP them to maintain headcount), as knife fighting, as political machinations, as compensation-busting tool, etc.

There are legitimate employees who need a PIP for the ostensible purpose they were created for. They're more rare in my experience than how many times PIP's are actually used.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by garbagecoder on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:46PM (#29815459)
> they generally don't need a reason.

This is true as far as it goes, but exceptions to the at-will rule include Title VII claims, so if they have an illusion of a dream of a identity-based claim, you need some documentation.

Since most companies don’t want to pay even the minuscule amount required to get a valid release, this is the alternative.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mbfg on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:18PM (#29814347)
the key words here are

"what the company represents"

of course they are not going to represent it as, "we are going to fire you".

Good for you to keep the job (if that's what you wanted) but in general it's a legal process companies do to easily fire people.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ghaff on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:13PM (#29815012)
The one case I have first hand knowledge of someone put on a PIP, they had done some specific things and also clearly weren't interested in their primary job any longer. I'm pretty sure they could have recovered had they found a way to jump into their current (or another) role again. They had been quite respected for a lot of things.

But it was really a time for a parting of the ways at that point.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by rossjudson on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @08:50PM (#29818090)
It's all perspective, and this simplification isn't accurate.

It's "I don't want to fire you, but you need to fix these things. Let's put this in the books so there's no disagreement over whether you're aware, and what you need to do."

In most cases at-will employment means the employer/manager can fire a person, so if that was the only thing going on, it would already be done.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @09:00PM (#29818167)
> In most cases at-will employment means the employer/manager can fire a person

For anyone who is a member of at least one protected class (which everyone who has any [or where this is possible, no] race, sex, ethnicity, religion, or national origin unambiguously is for each that apply, and there's some others that are less universal, and that's just under federal law) there is always a risk that that they will file a claim to have been dismissed for that reason, and under the civil preponderance of the evidence standard, if they have any substantial evidence indicating that might be the case the employer needs to overcome it with superior evidence that it is not.

And that is what a PIP is for, to provide the evidence trail supporting that alternative reason. They also serve as notice to people to get out before they are fired, which (unless bungled bad enough to support a constructive termination claim) also avoids wrongful termination liability, because the departure is voluntary. PIPs have nothing to do with performance improvement and everything to do with liability containment.

For actual performance problems that the employer wants to resolve, regular performance reviews and informal counseling that occurs before a PIP is the means to address it.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by subsaharancoder on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:57PM (#29816364)
Worked at a FAANG in one team for 3.5 years (got promoted and had good reviews), transferred to a new team and got PIP'd by new manager and eventually fired within a year of transferring. One of my workmates clearly told me that my chances of getting out of the PIP were next to zero but by then it was too late.

Best advice I can give someone who gets on a PIP is don't wait or work the process, just make an exit plan and act on it (interview quickly) and own your destiny. Also if you've been a stellar performer and you move to a team where things aren't working out within the first 3 months, transfer quickly (go to HR and claim mental and emotional wellbeing) before your performance reviews get trashed and then it's impossible to transfer.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by bogomipz on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @09:27PM (#29818379)
Wow, so it's basically like you are a new hire when you transfer? Do you mind saying which FAANG or is the experience you had simply norm at all of them?
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by subsaharancoder on Monday January 10, 2022 @07:32PM (#29885342)
> Wow, so it's basically like you are a new hire when you transfer? Do you mind saying which FAANG or is the experience you had simply norm at all of them?

The Big G. Your past performance primarily only influences the decision on whether you have a good track record of delivering, but once you transfer you essentially reset the clock with the new team and manager and the expectations might be completely different for whichever reason, it could be personality or org structures etc. I don't know if my experience is the norm at all of them since I haven't worked at all the FAANGs, but as I said it's important to "read the tea leaves" early, and if the new team doesn't feel right make your opinions known early and plan an exit before you come a statistic.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by kahrl on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:59PM (#29814117)
Performance Improvement Plan: "We're trying to fire you but need to do it by the books as to mitigate liability."
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by prirun on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:41PM (#29814622)
I don't understand why people keep saying this. Every state except Montana in the US is "at will": the employer can fire you at any time with no reason. I suppose you could try to prove discrimination because of age or something else, but just like you can walk out and never come back, the employer can ask you to leave and you're done. Companies have no liability if you are fired other than a discrimination lawsuit.

https://work.chron.com/fire-state-mean-20994.html

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by aidenn0 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:53PM (#29814793)
Legal departments are often fairly conservative. Do you know for a fact that the person you are firing is not a member of a protected class? If they are then they can potentially convince a judge that "fired with no reason" could be code for "fired for being the member of a protected class," at least to the degree that the trial cannot be dismissed.

Once you have reached that point, it's almost moot whether or not the plaintiff will win, as lawsuits are sufficiently headache inducing and expensive that a settlement is likely.

The odds of the above happening might be low, but being made aware of the possibility causes employers to CYA more than you might think in an at-will state.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by garbagecoder on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:52PM (#29815536)
Everyone is in a protected class. It’s a common misconception that white men etc aren’t. Under employment laws, if you suffer adverse employment actions on the basis of a protected class, even if you are a white cishet thin Protestant male with money and an Ivy League degree you are in protected classes.

Lawyers tell management this and get blamed for the law and courts being the way hey are. “Buy them out with a severance and a release” gets “why should I pay for something I’m allowed to do.” A few months later in house counsel gets screamed at “why is outside counsel charging us $50,000 for this summary judgment case?!”

“Well, I told you that——-“

“This is your fault! Why doesn’t EPLI cover it”

“You said it was too expensive, so we got the one with the high deductible.”

Since the defense bar also lines their pockets with these cases, and scare pieces on their blogs “review your employee handbook now or else!” No one fixes anything.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mywittyname on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:27PM (#29815173)
Also, it's a check against management.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by aidenn0 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @01:51PM (#29828034)
That's also a good point. If the manager for the direct report is racist/sexist/agist/whatever then the CYA becomes even more important for the company.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mikestew on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:56PM (#29814829)
the employer can fire you at any time with no reason

And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case). Maybe you fired me because I'm black, maybe you didn't, but without any documentation of what the real reason was, the company stands a good chance of settling to avoid the time in court.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ransom1538 on Thursday January 06, 2022 @08:54AM (#29823520)
"And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case)."

Judges hate this be careful. If you sue for "not enough ham in your subway sandwich" - I would bring overnight clothes and a toothbrush. Contempt of court is a thing. Judges hate time wasters.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by ballenf on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:55PM (#29814821)
Because some of their employees are in one or more protected classes and if you don't have a legit reason documented it's much harder to defend against a claim of illegal discrimination.

And you can't just gather those reasons for employees in protected classes or that itself is discriminatory treatment of employees.

So you have to make a choice as a large company: PIP systems or set aside more money for legal fees and settlements. Most opt for the former.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by garbagecoder on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:51PM (#29815514)
Because that’s true. You think it’s free to get even a frivolous case dismissed under discrimination or wage/hour laws? Lol. Google “title VII burden shifting framework.” For companies in SV, i.e. under CA law, it’s easily tens of thousands to dismiss even a frivolous case.

Better documentation means only increasingly bottom feeding plaintiffs lawyers will take the case.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by jrs235 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:08PM (#29815745)
It's also about making it firing "for/with cause" so the employee can't make a successful unemployment claim. The more unemployment claims against a company, the higher unemployment insurance rates/amounts the company has to pay.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by sgerenser on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @08:48PM (#29818078)
Being fired just because you’re bad at your job (as would normally be the case with a PIP) doesn’t make you ineligible for unemployment. Typically you’d have to be fired for gross negligence or doing something outright illegal.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by taurath on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @05:33PM (#29816067)
When management starts arbitrarily firing people without the perception that it’s a fair process, absolutely nobody sticks around. The process is for the benefit of retention because of employees perceive they can be dropped on a whim they start to act like it.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by lloydatkinson on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:21PM (#29815097)
The internet is bigger than america, it's a shame I need to remind you.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mikestew on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:43PM (#29815425)
Remind me again of the location of the corporate headquarters of the company that this portion of the thread is specifically talking about? Need I remind you of context?
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by UncleMeat on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:00PM (#29814874)
If this were true, why are PIPs not universal across virtually every industry? It isn't like fired employees in software would be uniquely litigious.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by rland on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:08PM (#29814964)
I've worked on employment litigation in several industries (white and blue collar), they are everywhere.

Defense usually wins if they have good documentation of putting employees on a PIP, even if the reason is obviously dubious*.

Maybe I'm cynical because I've only seen it in a lawsuit context, but if you're put on a PIP, start applying. There's no out.

* like, discrimination, company wants to fire long-term employee because of an injury, company wants to fire an employee for union organizing, etc.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by UncleMeat on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @07:02PM (#29817103)
> There's no out.

I'm a manager at Google and have therefore been privy to a bunch of PIPs. I know a bunch of people who have survived them and many of them have later gone on and had successful promos. I've seen exactly one case where everybody involved was resigned to the fact that the PIP would almost certainly fail and that is because the person being fired was a raging asshole. A manager who wrote a PIP designed to be impossible would themselves be given shit performance reviews.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by rossjudson on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @08:56PM (#29818134)
Exactly. A PIP is "I don't want to fire you, but you gotta fix some stuff." Complex environments like Google need to build and retain knowledge. Firing for zero cause is just...well, we have serious things to do, and that's just dumb. I've never seen it.

A PIP isn't just a closed two-way conversation between a report and a manager. In every case I've seen there are multiple eyes on a PIP and revisions to them.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by rurp on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:27PM (#29815177)
I suspect white collar employees are a lot more likely to sue an employer in general, and PIPs are pretty common across white collar industries. Filing a lawsuit is a lot easier for people who have money in the bank, a flexible schedule, familiarity with the law, and personal connections to lawyers; all attributes that correlate with white collar professionals.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by killingtime74 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:52PM (#29814778)
Paid interview preparation (time). Only slightly joking
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by yonig on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:15PM (#29814313)
Replies laid out what it means on paper but what is the employees actual best move? Sounds intentionally impossible to climb out of. Are they given a buyout option to leave or just sit in purgatory for 6 months?
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by BikiniPrince on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:55PM (#29814822)
It depends on the manager who constructs the pip and goals.

The manager might lean towards salvaging or maybe documentation. Usually, an honest manager would give some hints as to the nature. Like, maybe it’s best you look at other opportunities kinda nods. Some people are also just bad as reading the crowd and would ignore a written sign that stated “you will be fired.”

I’ve seen bad managers give a junior work that needed a whole team to resolve. I stepped in during reviews and fixed that train wreck. However, on their second chance with simpler work it didn’t turn out much better. At that point we probably soured the engineer. Later we removed the shitty manager. He took off as soon as he received his PIP.

One of my first batch of directs I took over was in the latter group. He made no connection that this could lead to termination. I would love to have heard the conversation with his previous manager. Also, he might have been feigning ignorance for more time. He quite simply just needed direct coaching on interacting with people. He went from the worst engineer to someone I tried to give the highest rankings. My manager wouldn’t have it, but we did compromise.

A lot goes on in the background, but something I never did was bend to statistics. I didn’t care what HR thought was the expected target. Some people are spineless and just rollover. Drives me mad. What are they going to do? Fire me and send me some place else for more money?

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by User23 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:54PM (#29814811)
It depends on the employee and the organization. If the employee in question really has been under-performing, believes meeting the goals is possible, and wants to stay, then accepting the PIP and trying to succeed is a risky but valid choice.

On the other hand, if the employee in question is fairly certain the PIP conditions can't be satisfied, signing the PIP is a very bad idea. It amounts to written acknowledgement of failing to perform the employee's end of the employment contract and gives the employer justification to fire the employee with cause. If that's the case, declining to sign the PIP and asking about alternative next steps is the way to go. In that case, there's a good chance that the company will offer an exit package in exchange for a general release. One of the upsides of this approach is there's no PIP in the employee file, on the off chance eligibility for re-hire is a concern.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by w0mbat on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:43PM (#29815423)
Exactly. Object to the PIP suggestion, and say it is being imposed without proper cause for a discriminatory reason, e.g. to harass and force out an employee over 40. That totally fucks their attempt to gather fake reasons to fire you, their only option is to offer you money to quit. I ran into this at a company where my good work was documented, but I'd accidentally annoyed someone really high up and strings were being pulled to ditch me.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by mbfg on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:18PM (#29814357)
As soon as you get a PIP, get out when you can.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by notreallyserio on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @04:39PM (#29815357)
Agreed. I can't see any possible upside for staying.

It's like if someone threatens you with a lawsuit. You don't communicate with them ever again, you tell them to contact you via lawyer and hopefully you never hear from them again.

Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by atlasunshrugged on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:58PM (#29814112)
Performance Improvement Plan- it's basically the precursor to firing that companies do to cover themselves from a lawsuit for wrongful termination
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by hvs on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:02PM (#29814162)
Performance Improvement Plan. Basically, a fancy way for a company to say they tried to help you improve before firing you.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by bennysomething on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:57PM (#29814093)
I think it's performance improvement plan, but that's a guess
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by lkschubert8 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:56PM (#29814075)
Performance improvement plan
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by sharkweek on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @02:58PM (#29814105)
This, and it's mostly a death sentence. If you're on a PIP the odds you survive it are low, used mostly to manage people into quitting.
Re:I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months by MattGaiser on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @03:13PM (#29814299)
"You're fired, but I am just waiting on the paperwork."