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Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dundarious on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:12PM (#29606219)
If you're referring to corporations like Google, where employees (until recently at least) were able to form groups and informal committees and have (sometimes) interminable debates, I think you're missing the important point that Google is not a democratic institution -- it has a strict hierarchy decided from the top, so it's pretty resistant to these tactics. It's the powerless, free-association, relatively democratic groups that are antagonistic to the hierarchy that are vulnerable to these tactics, and that are neutralized by them. I agree that representative democracies are definitely easy prey to these tactics though.

I think this manual is most appropriately understood as an early reference for the operations of the FBI in COINTELPRO, etc. State employed agents-provocateur and saboteurs were some of the first to literally use these exact reference manuals domestically, and their targets were the various social and labor movements of the day.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by jt2190 on Saturday December 18, 2021 @01:16PM (#29606915)
> It's the powerless, free-association, relatively democratic groups that are antagonistic to the hierarchy that are vulnerable to these tactics, and that are neutralized by them.

For more clarity on what can happen in organizations that are antagonistic to hierarchy and structure, I can think of no better read than “The Tyranny of structurelessness” by Jo Feeman https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @07:40PM (#29610246)
"The basic problems didn't appear until individual rap groups exhausted the virtues of consciousness-raising and decided they wanted to do something more specific. At this point they usually foundered because most groups were unwilling to change their structure when they changed their tasks."

That happened to Occupy Wall Street, and to Black Lives Matter. Both failed to focus on specific, achievable goals. And so, they never got beyond the consciousness raising stage. If Occupy Wall Street had focused on "Tax the 1%" and "Break up monopoly landlords", and Black Lives Matter had focused on "Every killing by a cop gets investigated by the FBI" and "Fire the bottom 10% of cops", they might have achieved those goals.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:15AM (#29611853)
Basically the same thing happened to the Tea Party.

My impression is that the movement gets co-opted as a generic partisan force, and then having specific goals is a detriment when the unstated goal is merely to elect a particular party.

The best goal for Occupy Wall Street would have been to break up all the Too Big To Fail institutions. The "problem" with that was twofold.

One, if that's the goal, and they manage to turn the election, then they'll expect the people they elected to actually do it. But politicians didn't wanna do it. Both parties are in the pocket of the banks.

And two, if they actually did do it, it would be done. The movement would have succeeded and lost its raison d'etre. If you solve the problem then you can't run on it again.

So you're completely right. The question is how to prevent movements from getting co-opted like this. Because actually solving the problem is the thing we should want.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:23PM (#29610488)
> Black Lives Matter had focused on "Every killing by a cop gets investigated by the FBI" and "Fire the bottom 10% of cops",

BLM wasn't formed in response to police violence, so if it was to limit itself to a narrow tactical policy aim, those would have been odd choices.

Also, BLM has arguably had a broader and more substantial impact already than achieving either one of those narrow goals would have.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:16PM (#29610747)
"#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer."[1]

[1] https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by berdario on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:19PM (#29610768)
> BLM wasn't formed in response to police violence,

???

Do you have references to that?

I understand that BLM prominence started with the Ferguson protests against cop Darren Wilson murdering Michael Brown Jr

(Ps, forgot about Zimmerman murdering Trayvon. But that's also a cop-adjacent figure. What most people would define a vigilante)

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:34PM (#29610839)
> I understand that BLM prominence started with the Ferguson protests against cop Darren Wilson murdering Michael Brown Jr

Yes, it became prominent then because it was already well established with a network of activists, etc.; the principal triggering event (as your PS seems to acknowledge) was the slaying of Trayvon Martin.

> But that's also a cop-adjacent figure.

That may be a valid viewpoint, but it's not the fact that BLM organized around, which was the lack of accountability and the identity of the victim, not anything about the personal characteristics or background of the perpetrator.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by 8note on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:54PM (#29618287)
What's the point of disagreement here? You're both saying that BLM was founded and organized around the lack of police accountability when killing black people
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 19, 2021 @08:21PM (#29620567)
> What's the point of disagreement here?

“Police”.

> You're both saying that BLM was founded and organized around the lack of police accountability when killing black people

No, “police” was not part of the founding focus. Events involving police just happened to be the ones that brought the network to mass attention, after it was founded in response to a non-police (even if some might see it as “police adjacent”) killing with a focus that was not in any way focussed on whether those responsible but not held accountable were police, or “police adjacent”.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by iratewizard on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:47PM (#29610888)
Huh. I don't remember a court of law determining that either Zimmerman or Darren Wilson murdered anyone.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:40AM (#29612405)
> I don't remember a court of law determining that either Zimmerman or Darren Wilson murdered anyone

Courts of law are institutions of government, and surprisingly enough people sometimes disagree with the jobs done by institutions of government.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by iratewizard on Monday December 20, 2021 @02:06AM (#29622202)
A jury isn't a government.
[dead]
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by kybernetyk on Sunday December 19, 2021 @02:46AM (#29612193)
Mostly peaceful.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by culi on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:04PM (#29610373)
Occupy Wall Street was the birth of the left in the US. The US hasn't really had a leftwing since the 1920s. It created a whole class of activists that went around couch-surfing and protesting at major events. A few years later #NoDAPL happened and a huge chunk of the people involved in that were also involved in Occupy. As someone who was really involved in union organizing all the way on the opposite side of the country, I can tell you how much these organizers had an influence. We saw a huge shift in attitudes towards labor organizing after that and a huge influx of energy from people who first got into organizing through Occupy. Occupy also gave us Graeber and so many strains of leftist theory related to eco-socialism, communalism, and many other "hot" leftist theories today.

I'm sorry but I feel like this author is really out of touch here. Perhaps to someone who only interacted with it through the news, it seemed like they didn't get anything done. But that energy didn't just dissipate. It spread to almost every facet of American leftist organizing

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by vegenaise on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:25PM (#29610497)
what about seattle in 99? what about the alf and elf? what about EF!? bookchin, zerzan, cfd, i could go on forever. also, occupy didn't give us graeber, graeber gave us occupy. sounds like occupy was your first exposure to the left in the us.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by culi on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:25AM (#29611606)
Sure of course I'm biased to my own anecdata. Yeah sure you can find examples like ALF and ELF and even demonstrations like the 1990 WTO protests, but it doesn't change the fact that for basically the last 100 years the american "left" has been a pretty niche political movement mostly involving very academic post-marxist debates or sectarian conflicts about ml theorists. It certainly wasn't at the scale it was in the early 20th century and certainly not at the scale it's emerging to be now

Also saying Graeber gave us occupy is giving a lot more credit to him than I think is fair. And I think Occupy introduced a lot more people to Graeber than Graeber introduced to Occupy

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by guerrilla on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:56AM (#29613243)
> Occupy Wall Street was the birth of the left in the US

And did you miss the 60's?

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by 8note on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:59PM (#29618350)
The red scare happened before that. If not about the left in the US, who were they afraid of?
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:18PM (#29610767)
Union, Yes!

I didn't realize that Occupy had helped labor organizing.

Does leftist theory really help when trying to organize a business?

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by tacocataco on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:38PM (#29610850)
I think you'd be interested in Mondragon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by refurb on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:57AM (#29611768)
”The US hasn't really had a leftwing since the 1920s.”

Ummm… the 60’s would like to have a word with you. You’re clearly lack some significant history lessons.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:29PM (#29606397)
> Google is not a democratic institution -- it has a strict hierarchy decided from the top, so it's pretty resistant to these tactics.

Dictatorial control only prevents this for institutions small enough for the dictator to fully understand every part of the organization.

Without that, you get middle managers jockeying for position and playing CYA and the people at the top are too far away from it to put a stop to it.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dundarious on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:37PM (#29606492)
Sure, but at every level of the hierarchy, there is a boss to break the sabotage induced deadlock, and anyone acting up too much can always be fired/demoted by that same boss.

In looser structures like social movements or nascent labor organizations, it's hard for any individual/subset to wield enough authority to do either of those things.

There are parallels with any organization (even families), but I think it's rather weak when applied to modern corporations.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:47PM (#29606597)
> Sure, but at every level of the hierarchy, there is a boss to break the sabotage induced deadlock, and anyone acting up too much can always be fired/demoted by that same boss.

This is why the sabotage relies on organizational politics and by the book pedantry.

You have a corporate policy that was created by lawyers and HR for the solitary purpose of ass covering. It's so that if anyone violates it, they can point to the policy as an excuse to scapegoat them or have an independent pretext to punish wrongthinkers for things they're not legally or politically allowed to punish them for.

If you insist on actually following that policy to the letter to the detriment of the organization, your boss is risking their own ass to put a stop to it, so most of them won't. And the policy itself comes from over their head, so they can't change it.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dundarious on Saturday December 18, 2021 @12:54PM (#29606668)
Who are the saboteurs in this analogy? Who are the people who are consciously (but secretly) trying to sabotage the organization/operations?
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Saturday December 18, 2021 @01:03PM (#29606774)
"Saboteurs" is tongue in cheek. There might be some actual saboteurs in the world, but most people are doing these things out of incompetence or neuroses or personal advantage.

Bob hates to work with X, but Bob's boss's boss got a kickback for signing a contract with X vendor, so now Bob is going to follow every policy to the letter on the X project until it fails or his request for reassignment goes through.

Carol has OCD. You give her a policy book and she's going to read it cover to cover and create her own index to it and make citations to individual provisions whenever she sees anyone violating it, even if they're only violating the letter and not the spirit.

Alice does the same thing but it's because she's an opportunist, so she only looks for policy violations as retaliation for not getting her way and people learn not to cross her.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dundarious on Saturday December 18, 2021 @02:00PM (#29607404)
OK, my understanding is to take your comparison as more of an Office Space style critique of the modern corporation then.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:18AM (#29612324)
> to take your comparison as more of an Office Space style critique of the modern corporation then.

... Scarily accurate? Spot on? A sad but correct reading of how companies actually operate?

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dundarious on Sunday December 19, 2021 @11:22AM (#29615137)
Yes, all of that, but also relatively trivial in comparison to the use of these tactics in operations like COINTELPRO. Almost everyone on HN works in an office (myself included), but I think it's a bit shallow and limiting (and ultimately dangerous) if the primary way we interact with such materials is to strip them of their actual context, and immediately apply them to our mundane individual experience, thinking things like, "yeah that's just like I told my boss, I was like, 'uhhh, this meeting could have been an email?... ;)'". (That's a caricature of their opinion, but it was funny to me, and still expresses what I mean about its relative shallowness).
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by lazide on Saturday December 18, 2021 @04:50PM (#29608875)
In my experience (having worked as a peon then a manager, then a senior manager) at one of the companies talked about here in the past?

These techniques aren’t effective because they’re clearly sabotage. They’re effective because they kill an organizations effectiveness AND often happen naturally, so by turning it up a notch you’ll throw even more wrenches into the works than normal - but fly under the radar.

The whole strict hierarchy and breaking ties thing you’re talking about exists because all the things in this manual happen all the time ANYWAY, just not as often.

And there are a number of ways to point fingers and hide/diffuse blame that happen all day everywhere anyway too, and work.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by mcguire on Saturday December 18, 2021 @05:42PM (#29609323)
In the specific case of the document, "citizen saboteurs" who were opposed to the Nazi regime, but who weren't in a position to, or didn't want to, take more active measures.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by nebula8804 on Saturday December 18, 2021 @07:50PM (#29610295)
How do companies like Tesla, SpaceX and Jobs era Apple perform so well then? These companies are thousands of employees, multiple departments. Everything I have heard seems to indicate that amazing execution ability of these places. Either Elon knows everything that is going on top to bottom or he must be instilling some fear in managers that keeps them in line. I think its the latter. I hear if your name crosses his desk that means you screwed up/underperformed and that you will have severe punishment. I think this method is not performed as seriously in other organizations and it leads to middle management jockeying for power instead and slowly introducing bloat.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:53AM (#29611740)
When Apple was designing the original iPhone, they had about 10% as many employees as they do now. And this cruft accumulates over time and with size; there is less of it in smaller and younger organizations.

Managers are also aware of their company's market position. If the new Camaro didn't sell, GM was still going to exist. If the Model 3 didn't sell, Tesla was toast. A middle manager who bankrupts the company inherently loses their job, so people are less inclined to play stupid games when that's what's on the line.

Companies doing novel things are also able to retain employees who believe in the mission even when the big boss is a fire breathing dragon. You put the same kind of boss in charge of the DMV or the cable company and people are just going to quit, or exert political pressure against the boss.

This points to antitrust as a solution. Constrain mergers and vertical integration. Then companies that become bureaucratically inefficient actually fail and go away, solving the problem. And that possibility was always the primary deterrent to it happening, which is why it happens so much more when that isn't on the table.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by vlovich123 on Saturday December 18, 2021 @11:24PM (#29611299)
There may be things government bureaucracies can learn from industry. It’s a different problem domain though. Government institutions are large. Like DoD is 2.68 million employees and that’s only one branch of the federal executive branch. You’ve still got the judicial, legislative branches and all the hierarchies down to the municipal level. Then there’s the fact that many things a single person might try to do have laws around them. Also the leadership changes every 4 or 8 years and when that happens there usually a drastic idealogical shift in the direction to take the organization.

Apple has 150k employees and runs mostly like a dictatorship with very long ruler at the top that has a lot of power and a generally consistent long-term version they’re executing on. Distributed decision making might be a bit stronger but there’s also no real laws to speak of with lots of forgiveness if things turn out well.

Also the motives are drastically different. Government is about creating the best structure for a bunch of humans to cohabitate with a shared value system. Corporations typically are about amassing power, wealth, and influence over governments.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by nebula8804 on Saturday December 18, 2021 @07:44PM (#29610266)
You know sometimes I think that its amazing we have made any progress at all in this country. I think about the Civil Rights movement and how much resistance it got from both the population as well as internal government sabotage. So many people (including me) are so lucky that the movement managed to overcome all the attempts to kill it and make meaningful progress.

I hate to bring this up but just think how differently things would have played out if the JFK assassination did not happen. I don't believe the conspiracy theories and so I consider it a black swan event. Where are we suffering from government sabotage today? Would BLM have turned out differently? Would we have even needed it in the first place if prior sabotage events didn't happen? Anyway this is leading into conspiracy territory but I just was wondering out loud.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by culi on Saturday December 18, 2021 @07:58PM (#29610342)
> overcome all the attempts to kill it and make meaningful progress

Well it certainly didn't overcome all events. The FBI violently executed the leadership of the Black Panthers through local police that had 0 repercussions for their (very illegal) actions. Cultural groups in the south like the Daughters of the Confederacy really ramped up their culture war and made sure to filter all history textbooks, put up monuments, etc. Cops have been able to kill black folks and totally get away with it for decades now

Imagine where we could be if Huey Newton did actually get elected to local politics. Or if the South didn't ramp up their culture war

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by nebula8804 on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:10PM (#29610719)
Oh yea absolutely. A lot of these things you describe have direct consequences that affect us today. I guess I was mistaken by using the word 'all' as we are still fighting for this cause today.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by rvnx on Sunday December 19, 2021 @02:32AM (#29612132)
Like Wikipedia you mean ?

The processes in this document sound utterly familiar.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by mcguire on Saturday December 18, 2021 @05:38PM (#29609288)
Psst! This document was created by the OSS to train saboteurs in Nazi Germany as part of the economic war. If you can find a stricter hierarchy than that, I'd like to hear of it.