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Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @07:40PM (#29610246)
"The basic problems didn't appear until individual rap groups exhausted the virtues of consciousness-raising and decided they wanted to do something more specific. At this point they usually foundered because most groups were unwilling to change their structure when they changed their tasks."

That happened to Occupy Wall Street, and to Black Lives Matter. Both failed to focus on specific, achievable goals. And so, they never got beyond the consciousness raising stage. If Occupy Wall Street had focused on "Tax the 1%" and "Break up monopoly landlords", and Black Lives Matter had focused on "Every killing by a cop gets investigated by the FBI" and "Fire the bottom 10% of cops", they might have achieved those goals.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 19, 2021 @01:15AM (#29611853)
Basically the same thing happened to the Tea Party.

My impression is that the movement gets co-opted as a generic partisan force, and then having specific goals is a detriment when the unstated goal is merely to elect a particular party.

The best goal for Occupy Wall Street would have been to break up all the Too Big To Fail institutions. The "problem" with that was twofold.

One, if that's the goal, and they manage to turn the election, then they'll expect the people they elected to actually do it. But politicians didn't wanna do it. Both parties are in the pocket of the banks.

And two, if they actually did do it, it would be done. The movement would have succeeded and lost its raison d'etre. If you solve the problem then you can't run on it again.

So you're completely right. The question is how to prevent movements from getting co-opted like this. Because actually solving the problem is the thing we should want.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:23PM (#29610488)
> Black Lives Matter had focused on "Every killing by a cop gets investigated by the FBI" and "Fire the bottom 10% of cops",

BLM wasn't formed in response to police violence, so if it was to limit itself to a narrow tactical policy aim, those would have been odd choices.

Also, BLM has arguably had a broader and more substantial impact already than achieving either one of those narrow goals would have.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:16PM (#29610747)
"#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer."[1]

[1] https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by berdario on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:19PM (#29610768)
> BLM wasn't formed in response to police violence,

???

Do you have references to that?

I understand that BLM prominence started with the Ferguson protests against cop Darren Wilson murdering Michael Brown Jr

(Ps, forgot about Zimmerman murdering Trayvon. But that's also a cop-adjacent figure. What most people would define a vigilante)

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:34PM (#29610839)
> I understand that BLM prominence started with the Ferguson protests against cop Darren Wilson murdering Michael Brown Jr

Yes, it became prominent then because it was already well established with a network of activists, etc.; the principal triggering event (as your PS seems to acknowledge) was the slaying of Trayvon Martin.

> But that's also a cop-adjacent figure.

That may be a valid viewpoint, but it's not the fact that BLM organized around, which was the lack of accountability and the identity of the victim, not anything about the personal characteristics or background of the perpetrator.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by 8note on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:54PM (#29618287)
What's the point of disagreement here? You're both saying that BLM was founded and organized around the lack of police accountability when killing black people
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 19, 2021 @08:21PM (#29620567)
> What's the point of disagreement here?

“Police”.

> You're both saying that BLM was founded and organized around the lack of police accountability when killing black people

No, “police” was not part of the founding focus. Events involving police just happened to be the ones that brought the network to mass attention, after it was founded in response to a non-police (even if some might see it as “police adjacent”) killing with a focus that was not in any way focussed on whether those responsible but not held accountable were police, or “police adjacent”.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by iratewizard on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:47PM (#29610888)
Huh. I don't remember a court of law determining that either Zimmerman or Darren Wilson murdered anyone.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:40AM (#29612405)
> I don't remember a court of law determining that either Zimmerman or Darren Wilson murdered anyone

Courts of law are institutions of government, and surprisingly enough people sometimes disagree with the jobs done by institutions of government.

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by iratewizard on Monday December 20, 2021 @02:06AM (#29622202)
A jury isn't a government.
[dead]
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by kybernetyk on Sunday December 19, 2021 @02:46AM (#29612193)
Mostly peaceful.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by culi on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:04PM (#29610373)
Occupy Wall Street was the birth of the left in the US. The US hasn't really had a leftwing since the 1920s. It created a whole class of activists that went around couch-surfing and protesting at major events. A few years later #NoDAPL happened and a huge chunk of the people involved in that were also involved in Occupy. As someone who was really involved in union organizing all the way on the opposite side of the country, I can tell you how much these organizers had an influence. We saw a huge shift in attitudes towards labor organizing after that and a huge influx of energy from people who first got into organizing through Occupy. Occupy also gave us Graeber and so many strains of leftist theory related to eco-socialism, communalism, and many other "hot" leftist theories today.

I'm sorry but I feel like this author is really out of touch here. Perhaps to someone who only interacted with it through the news, it seemed like they didn't get anything done. But that energy didn't just dissipate. It spread to almost every facet of American leftist organizing

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by vegenaise on Saturday December 18, 2021 @08:25PM (#29610497)
what about seattle in 99? what about the alf and elf? what about EF!? bookchin, zerzan, cfd, i could go on forever. also, occupy didn't give us graeber, graeber gave us occupy. sounds like occupy was your first exposure to the left in the us.
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by culi on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:25AM (#29611606)
Sure of course I'm biased to my own anecdata. Yeah sure you can find examples like ALF and ELF and even demonstrations like the 1990 WTO protests, but it doesn't change the fact that for basically the last 100 years the american "left" has been a pretty niche political movement mostly involving very academic post-marxist debates or sectarian conflicts about ml theorists. It certainly wasn't at the scale it was in the early 20th century and certainly not at the scale it's emerging to be now

Also saying Graeber gave us occupy is giving a lot more credit to him than I think is fair. And I think Occupy introduced a lot more people to Graeber than Graeber introduced to Occupy

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by guerrilla on Sunday December 19, 2021 @06:56AM (#29613243)
> Occupy Wall Street was the birth of the left in the US

And did you miss the 60's?

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by 8note on Sunday December 19, 2021 @03:59PM (#29618350)
The red scare happened before that. If not about the left in the US, who were they afraid of?
Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by Animats on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:18PM (#29610767)
Union, Yes!

I didn't realize that Occupy had helped labor organizing.

Does leftist theory really help when trying to organize a business?

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by tacocataco on Saturday December 18, 2021 @09:38PM (#29610850)
I think you'd be interested in Mondragon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

Re:Excerpt from CIA's Simple Sabotage Field Manual (1944) by refurb on Sunday December 19, 2021 @12:57AM (#29611768)
”The US hasn't really had a leftwing since the 1920s.”

Ummm… the 60’s would like to have a word with you. You’re clearly lack some significant history lessons.