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Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:07PM (#29493326)
I'm not a huge fan of how deadweight loss is defined in the article:

> virtually all economists agree that land value tax has zero "deadweight loss"–a fancy word for a drag on the economy that makes certain activities no longer profitable

Property taxes tax the land + the building. Building taxes are complicated to assess. They require tax assessments, appraisers, tax code, accountants to compute depreciation schedules, etc. The deadweight loss of property taxes is the economic loss of having resources devoted to filling out property tax filings. Appraisers and accountants would do other productive economic activities if they didn't spend all their time filling out tax forms.

Property taxes also distort incentives. If you improve your property, then you pay more tax. Property taxes can discourage you from using your land to its highest and best use.

Land taxes offer the opposite incentives. They encourage you to make your property better.

Land taxes would arguably help a lot of the housing crises. Landowners have to pay a lot more taxes if they want to convert a lot with a single family home to a 4-plex. A land tax wouldn't impose an additional tax to the landowner for improving the value of their land.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnthonyMouse on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:45AM (#29494867)
> The deadweight loss of property taxes is the economic loss of having resources devoted to filling out property tax filings.

This is true, but it's minor. The main one is this:

> Property taxes also distort incentives. If you improve your property, then you pay more tax. Property taxes can discourage you from using your land to its highest and best use.

In particular, it's what happens after the incentives are distorted. It becomes unprofitable to increase the housing stock, so housing becomes more expensive, so people have to pay more for it. This can be a huge amount of money and it's deadweight loss.

> Land taxes offer the opposite incentives. They encourage you to make your property better.

It's not that they encourage it so much as that they stop discouraging it. You don't pay any less LVT if you develop your land, but you also don't pay any more.

> Land taxes would arguably help a lot of the housing crises.

This still depends on zoning. It doesn't matter how profitable it would be to have a 4-plex on your lot when building one is prohibited by zoning. And fixing the zoning would have the larger benefit, because in the places that matter, that's already the constraint, which LVT on its own can't get you out of.

Of course, we could do both.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dragonwriter on Thursday December 09, 2021 @04:09AM (#29495319)
> It becomes unprofitable to increase the housing stock, so housing becomes more expensive

There's no way that this occurs with actual property taxes at the levels they are in the US. Sure, an improvement may result in higher property taxes which go into effect before the value of the improvement begins being realized, but overall effective property tax rates in the US range between 0.37% and 2.22% per year; this plausibly could make uses where the value would be realized entirely in direct-use by the owner unviable, but there is no way it makes any use where the value is realized through commercial exploitation (whether productive or rent) unviable, even with something of a delay in realization. Including things like densifying housing for rent or sale.

Yes, abstractly it might be a problem with property taxes, if you had a system where property taxes were the principal tax in society. Of course, the only people who even propose real estate taxes as the primary tax are…Georgists arguing for a heavy LVT replacing other taxes.

> It’s not that they encourage it so much as that they stop discouraging it

No, especially if they are heavy (as LVT proponents often propose), they don’t merely “stop discouraging” improvements, they make them necessary, because land uses that don’t provide a substantial fraction of the income potential of the land become unviable. In fact, land ownership by people who don’t have capital for both improvements and to stay afloat until those improvements bear fruit becomes unviable; a heavy LVT is an efficient way to assure acceleration of the concentration of land ownership.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnthonyMouse on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:50PM (#29501321)
> Sure, an improvement may result in higher property taxes which go into effect before the value of the improvement begins being realized, but overall effective property tax rates in the US range between 0.37% and 2.22% per year; this plausibly could make uses where the value would be realized entirely in direct-use by the owner unviable, but there is no way it makes any use where the value is realized through commercial exploitation (whether productive or rent) unviable, even with something of a delay in realization.

Why not?

Suppose you could invest $100,000 to create housing in an area where that would have a 5.5% ROI, compared to a 5% ROI for some non-housing alternative investment with equivalent risk. Then you're going to build housing. Add a 1% property tax and you're going to invest the money in the other thing instead until local rents increase to raise the housing ROI.

> No, especially if they are heavy (as LVT proponents often propose), they don’t merely “stop discouraging” improvements, they make them necessary, because land uses that don’t provide a substantial fraction of the income potential of the land become unviable.

That doesn't actually change the math.

Suppose you could spend $100,000 to construct more housing on your property and then, in the local housing market, the additional housing would have a net present value of $90,000, e.g. because local rents are already low. Then you're not going to do it, because you'd just lose $10,000.

If you suddenly owe a lot of land value tax, you're still not going to do it, because losing $10,000 more doesn't help you pay the extra tax.

Whereas if you could spend $100,000 to produce something with a net present value of $200,000, you were going to do that either way.

The weirdest thing about LVT is that if you got rid of the disincentive to build from property tax (and, of course, restrictive zoning) then the "land value" would crash because if rents were higher than construction costs then construction would happen until they weren't. At which point housing scarcity would be low and collectable rents would be predominantly attributable to construction costs, and only higher in cities to the extent that higher density structures have a higher construction cost per unit area.

But the same thing happens just by getting rid of property tax and restrictive zoning, doesn't it?

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by someguydave on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:56AM (#29497332)
Yeah it is likely with heavy LVT there would be huge funds that would purchase land and let it out for a small profit (“ground rent”).
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by midasuni on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:46AM (#29495219)
Encourages in the sense that leaving land empty while it gains value is easy and free. Once you are paying for that land you have to do something with it otherwise it costs more than the inflation of the value.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by Kaotique on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:22AM (#29496553)
I was recently in Egypt and they have a tax on finished buildings. So naturally no building is ever finished. It is a very weird sight that 90% of the buildings don't have windows and uncompleted roofs.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by CRConrad on Monday December 13, 2021 @01:45AM (#29537351)
Used to be the same in Greece, AFAIK.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:11PM (#29493732)
IMO the biggest issue with property taxes, land taxes, or any other similar idea, is that they arbitrarily tax one kind of wealth over others. Why should a person who owns a house worth $500k (and perhaps has a mortgage on it) pay not only the exact same tax rate, but also the amount of tax as a person who owns a house worth $500k (and doesn't have a mortgage on it), but also has $5 million in other assets? (This isn't even getting into the fact that the wealthier you are, the less of your total wealth is likely to consist of land/property/etc.)
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lmm on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:48PM (#29493929)
Owning huge amounts of land is uniquely antisocial in a way that owning huge amounts of other stuff isn't. If Mr Moneybags buys ten thousand paintings, we can always produce more paintings (and the rising price of paintings will push more people to take up careers in art). But if Moneybags buys ten thousand acres, the rest of us are ten thousand acres worse off in a way that we can't really fix.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:28AM (#29494476)
So why not tax gold or bitcoin or the Mona Lisa if the main difference between taxable assets and non-taxable assets is scarcity?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mmdoda on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:47AM (#29494577)
This isn't connect to just the scarcity of the land. People can live without bitcoin and the Mona Lisa, but you can't live without land. If you want to take this to the extreme imagine if somebody owns the whole country. Housing is a human right.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by wrycoder on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:17AM (#29497565)
It is? It’s “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, not life, <deleted> and purported happiness under socialism, where you are assigned housing and a job.

Housing was guaranteed in the old Soviet Union, but if you didn’t cooperate, the housing was in the gulag.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by PickledHotdog on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:25AM (#29497651)
Your daily reminder that not everyone on the internet lives in the United States
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by wrycoder on Monday December 13, 2021 @12:01PM (#29541464)
Yes, those values are universal, unless the powers that be manage to convince people otherwise.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by roenxi on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:04AM (#29494973)
The post didn't use the word scarcity. Land isn't even scarce, most land is effectively uninhabited compared to the population densities most people live at. Humanity at large is not short of land.

Land is quite unique. It is the resource with the weakest argument that humans produce it. Gold, for example, requires human labour to be dug up. Bitcoin requires humans to run machines. The Mona Lisa requires humans to paint. Land behaves differently.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by kesselvon on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:47AM (#29498698)
Land isn't scarce, but economically viable and productive land is scarce. Economic viability is a moving target, but for the most part pretty steady.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:04PM (#29505245)
The post I was responding to makes the distinction between things we can't create more of (land) and things we can (paintings). I used scarcity as an (erroneous) proxy for this distinction, even though obviously there are scarce things that we can create more of.

> Land is quite unique. It is the resource with the weakest argument that humans produce it.

I mean, not really. What about water or oxygen? What about carbon taxes insofar as they're related to the inherent value of the earth's climate? There are plenty of resources that don't require any human effort to produce, but that doesn't make them better suited to taxation. It just seems like an entirely arbitrary distinction to make.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by epistasis on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:31AM (#29499428)
I agree 100%. Originally land taxes were conceived as a correction for a more subtle bit of economic inequality: productivity of fields.

In today's world, where access to a city can dramatically change one's earning potential far far more, they are even more relevant.

The issue is both about the scarcity of access to a resource, such as the economy of a city, but also about where that resource comes from. With urban land, that resource is not the product of the individual land owner, but rather all the other land owners that made the city so prosperous and with so much opportunity.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by amablue on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:09AM (#29498161)
For what it's worth, it's not uncommon for Georgists to also favor extraction taxes for natural resources like gold.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dragonwriter on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:00PM (#29499861)
> Land isn't even scarce

Yes, it is (or, at least important subsets of land are.) If it wasn't, it would have zero value. Nonzero market value requires, and therefore proves, scarcity.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lmm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:41AM (#29494537)
The value of gold is mostly the cost of labour etc. to extract it; to the extent that it's just the value of the land that it was dug out of, sure, I'd support taxing it. Most Georgists support extending the land value tax to other kinds of economic land e.g. slices of radio spectrum. But physical land is the big one that affects society (particularly because everyone needs some land to live on), so it's the most important one to tax.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mcny on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:15AM (#29496494)
» Most Georgists support extending the land value tax to other kinds of economic land e.g. slices of radio spectrum.

This makes me wonder, do roads pay land tax? I think railway tracks do but I'm not sure about roads.

Personally I think more of the spectrum should be like 2.4GHz, 5 GHz (and soon 6GHz?). No auctions. No owners.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by amablue on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:11AM (#29498181)
If we are going full Georgist, yes, even the government would pay taxes on its own land, which includes the land for roads and railways.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by epistasis on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:32AM (#29499453)
But it's important to note that this is a different question than if the roads have tolls on them. (Not that you implied that in any way, but it is a confusion that happens!)

Rather, the tax on the land of the roads is an accounting mechanism to ensure that the land is being used for greater economic efficiency, rather than, say, a way forward wealthy people who live far away to get the public to subsidize the transport to their large mansions.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ac29 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:40AM (#29494530)
Everyone needs a certain number of square meters to live, work, and grow food in (or indirectly, for others to grow food for them). The same isn't true for the assets you mentioned.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by wrycoder on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:27AM (#29497677)
Fly over the US and observe that the place is mostly empty. Land is not the problem. Lack of economic opportunity and initiative are the problems.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by i_haz_rabies on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:50AM (#29497924)
It's almost entirely "used." The places that look "empty" are pasture, fields, private timberland and national parks, and the few remaining pockets of actual nature should probably be left the hell alone.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by wrycoder on Monday December 13, 2021 @11:59AM (#29541434)
There are ten thousand small towns (like, say, Bird Island) whose population has been declining for decades, due to lack of economic opportunity. You don’t have to choose between a city and an isolated home.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by nickff on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:54PM (#29493954)
Those are ten thousand paintings which the public cannot experience or enjoy! In many ways, the paintings are more precious, as they could go on worldwide tours, and be experienced by millions of people; most land has virtually no uniqueness, and cannot be shared.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lmm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:46AM (#29494569)
Most paintings sit in museum storage and are hardly ever seen by anyone (maybe the occasional grad student specialising in that particular artist).

Obviously I'm assuming an equal monetary value of paintings vs land; my point is not about how many acres equal how many paintings but about the impact on other people that taking $1M of paintings vs $1M of land out of circulation has.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by nickff on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:21AM (#29494758)
I completely agree with you regarding museums holding large collections which they do not exhibit; in fact, I think it highlights how a sort of 'George-ish' tax on paintings might be helpful!

With respect to your second point, I think that taking each out of circulation has different effects. I would guess that most assets have a value of about what they're worth (i.e. the price mechanism works). I think Georgism is at least a valuable paradigm, and would be in favour of at least some pseudo-Georgist measures, such as only taxing land, to encourage higher-value uses rather than land+structures, and taxing all sorts of land at the same rate.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lmm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:28PM (#29505768)
> I completely agree with you regarding museums holding large collections which they do not exhibit; in fact, I think it highlights how a sort of 'George-ish' tax on paintings might be helpful!

I'm not convinced; after all these collections are often already in public ownership. If there was something more beneficial to the public to be done with them, one would hope that would already be happening.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by derekjdanserl on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:05AM (#29494024)
See: Owning huge amounts of land is uniquely antisocial.

The point here is to maintain a society and some things must come first, namely material things which paintings are not. Of course, art history shows us time and time again the vital importance of material sustenance in creating and preserving works of art. If you really care about art, you have to care about the material foundations that make rich and meaningful social livelihoods possible.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by nickff on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:43AM (#29494236)
You emphasize "antisocial", and I am not sure why. I looked it up to double-check, and the main definition is "contrary to the laws and customs of society; devoid of or antagonistic to sociable instincts or practices." Could you please explain what you mean by "uniquely antisocial"?

>"If you really care about art, you have to care about the material foundations that make rich and meaningful social livelihoods possible."

I care about all the tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and I think that many paintings are worth a lot more than most 10k acres. The paintings also have the benefits of being able to contribute to shared experiences all over the world, and fulfilling more challenging needs.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by i_haz_rabies on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:53AM (#29497964)
I'll take the 10k acres, wherever it may be: meadow, forest, desert, wherever, and enjoy not only the ability to sustain myself, but the beauty and meaning that one can only find in nature. The same beauty and meaning that every artist from the first ape to feel artistry to now has tried, and failed, to fully capture.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by zzzzzzzza on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:18AM (#29496514)
the thing that is scarce is, depending on the country, not even really land itself but really proximity, connectedness in the graph of resources. price of land goes very high where there are lots of jobs and good schools....
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by adgjlsfhk1 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:26PM (#29493830)
One good reason to tax land is that its one of the few resources that we can't expand production of. Until traveling to other planets is cheap, land is a very limited resource so it is a major benefit to prevent the rich from hoarding it. For much of early Roman history, it was illegal for anyone to own more than a certain amount of land.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by youngtaff on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:23AM (#29495093)
It also doesn't move!

Income tax can be shifted to capital gains, of corporation tax can be shifted to other domiciles etc.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by yaacov on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:15PM (#29493764)
Georgism makes a distinction between Capital (value produced by labor) and Land (value that existed before humans showed up). Rewarding owners of capital incentives people to make more, but rewarding owners of land benefits nobody other than the landowner.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by Natsu on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:50AM (#29494265)
> value that existed before humans showed up

I'm not sure that meshes with the way it's actually described in the article. They give examples of a small piece of land worth $2M and then another plot in a different location that's worth far less, purely due to proximity to other improvements on the land (i.e. being prime real estate in a city) rather than something inherent to the land itself (e.g. fertility/use for growing crops).

And even then, something like fertility isn't really all natural any longer, given how it's impacted by so many farming practices (fertilization, tilling/no-till, crop rotation/nitrogen fixing crops, etc.).

Resource extraction (e.g. oil) seems a lot closer, though the actual labor of it vs. the resources of it are another thing. I do see more reason there why the benefit ought to be largely public--and to some extent it is in, e.g., Alaska via the Alaska Permanent Fund.

But I think that labor, improvements and whatever the intrinsic value might be are a lot more tied together than seems to be accounted for by the theory. Otherwise why is the intrinsic value of Manhattan's land not measured in some number of beads, with everything else being due to improvements (including those made by neighbors)? And yes, I do realize that beads actually were money for a time due to a lack of actual currency, but still.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by yonran on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:13AM (#29494395)
You’re right. When Henry George introduced the land value tax, he made it clear that in urban areas he wished to capture the value which is created by the community while the landowner sits and collects increasing rents, not value that existed naturally (https://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp19.htm):

> All these advantages attach to the land. On this land — and no other — they can be utilized. For here is the center of population: the focus of exchange, the marketplace, the workshop of industry. Density of population has given this land productive power equivalent to multiplying its original fertility a thousandfold.… The most valuable lands on earth, those with the highest rent, are not those with the highest natural fertility. Rather, they are lands given a greater usefulness by population density.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:39PM (#29493882)
That seems like a bit of a murky distinction, though, right? Taxing land disincentives economic activity a large component of which is in the land value (running a parking garage or hotel in downtown Manhattan, or a farm in a fertile region, etc.) but incentivizes other types of economic activity.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by abathur on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:12AM (#29494058)
This is roughly the point, though.

It doesn't _absolutely_ disincentivize these things unless they are operating at a loss. It certainly disincentivizes "economic activity" like opening an at-grade parking lot in a bustling city-center in order to minimize the property tax you pay while the land appreciates in value more than it disincentivizes opening a parking garage there (assuming there's actually enough parking demand to pay to build and maintain).

(I don't entirely disagree with you--it seems like this would shunt some investment away from investments that need expensive land. It's less clear to me whether that is good, neutral, or bad.)

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sooheon on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:09AM (#29494046)
Read this to understand the distinction: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...

George goes to great lengths to distinguish these factors of production. They are fundamentally different.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by awakeasleep on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:03AM (#29494009)
Do you think its murkier than things in life are, usually? Or are you comparing it to an abstraction in code.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:16PM (#29493768)
This is a great question.

Land taxes are great because there is less of a deadweight loss. Governments need money to operate. All else equal, we should get governments the money they need without wasting people's time to comply with complicated tax laws.

Humans also generally agree that progressive taxation is a good idea. Rich people should pay more to fund the government. Rich people own a lot of land, so they'd pay a lot of land tax. Poor people generally don't own any land and wouldn't be subject to this tax. Land taxes align well with what a lot of people think is fair.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by gbhn on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:50AM (#29494266)
Another key factor is enforcement cost. Enforcing a land tax is really easy for a government. You just... Go there and get it. There's no moving the land offshore or having complex relationships or offsets. If someone won't pay the government just assigns the ownership to someone who will and goes on.

Compliance costs with many other taxes are quite high.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:02AM (#29498060)
>the government just assigns the ownership to someone who will

...and physically evicts the previous tenant.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mrep on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:34AM (#29494500)
Wouldn't a land value taxes be regressive for condos as the more expensive ones are on higher floors and would pay the same rate as people on lower cheaper floors?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by pydry on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:52AM (#29496003)
This question is out of the scope of land value taxation. The overall tax burden would fall on the institution running the condo (HOA/company/whatever). How they decide whom to charge and how much, etc. would be a separate question government by different rules and laws.

Which is not to say that the outcome would be fair, but whether it is or not would depend upon how these organizations are regulated and run.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mrep on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:22PM (#29503794)
I don't think it is out of scope though because wether the government or your HOA/whatever is deciding how to appropriate the LVT is at the whims of someone else. I'm mostly for LVT but it gets supper messy with multiple ownership properties on land.

Also, LVT don't fix zoning as the value of your land is based on what you can make from it. If your land is zoned for only single floor parking, nobody is going to buy it for more than they can earn through single floor parking so the land won't be that valuable thus it won't have a high land value tax.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ShroudedNight on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:00AM (#29494653)
Why would they pay the same rate? From my understanding, the condo corporation would receive the tax bill. It would then be up to them to determine how they should charge the individual units.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by midasuni on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:51AM (#29495233)
Do people on the lower floors pay for lift maintenance?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by skt5 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:41AM (#29497811)
Generally speaking no. When there needs to be major maintenance, each condo unit owner pays N% of the cost where N% is defined as your ownership stake (also your voting weight) in the condo. N is roughly your unit's square footage / the sum of every unit's square footage.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sjwalter on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:29AM (#29494154)
> Humans also generally agree that progressive taxation is a good idea.

Fairly bold assertion. I'd say most humans don't even really know what progressive taxation means.

> Rich people should pay more to fund the government.

A static tax regime (i.e., taxes calculated by a simple fixed percentage of wealth or income) leads to the same outcome. E.g., in a 10% fixed tax regime, someone making $10k/a pays $1k in tax and another person making $1mm pays $100k in tax, meeting your desire to have the rich pay more--no progressive taxation required.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by d3ckard on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:33AM (#29496626)
I’d like to add here that the biggest fallacy is assuming rich pay income tax at all, which leftists across the world all seem to universally believe.

I would argue that in 21st century the definition of rich is actually „achieves most of his income through sources which are not subject to income tax”.

Progressive income tax mostly hurts well qualified proffessionals nowadays (people actually working for that income) and as such is detrimental to economy at large.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:15PM (#29505322)
This isn't true. If you define "income" as the sum of an individual's income from capital plus income from labor, it is only in the top 0.1% of the distribution that capital income dominates labor income. (This percentile threshold changes slightly based on country; in countries such as the United States it'll be a bit higher.)
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by d3ckard on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:01AM (#29507895)
And? Due to power-law distribution that 0.1 % holds disproportional amount of riches.

I really don’t get that people talk about rising income inequality all the time, but actually noticing it (i.e. very strong minority holding many assets) suddenly doesn’t make sense.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Friday December 10, 2021 @10:20AM (#29510890)
No one is denying that income and wealth are distributed very unequally. But my point is that well more than 99.9% of individuals primarily earn money via labor and are therefore subject to an income tax, and so it isn't correct to assert that income taxes don't hurt the rich. They don't hurt the absolute richest individuals - but most people aren't defining "the rich" as only the top 0.05%.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by d3ckard on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:39PM (#29515778)
Then I’d like to hear alternative definition of rich and see whether it is sound.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Friday December 10, 2021 @08:42PM (#29517599)
"Rich" is an ambiguous term; there clearly isn't a single definition. That being said, I think most people would agree that an individual who earns a salary of $500k a year (~99th percentile in the United States) is clearly "rich."

The question I'd put back to you is why it's useful to have a single, universally agreed-upon definition of "rich"?

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sethammons on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:06AM (#29498118)
It comes down to the purchasing power. If you tKe $100 from someone with only $1000, it affects their ability to live more than taking $100M from a billionaire
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ineptech on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:25PM (#29493821)
eh, what? The tax on $500K worth of stock or gold is zero. Also, home ownership is disincentivized by property taxes but also incentivized by the mortgage interest deduction, one of the largest non-corporate tax subsidies in America. And rental property is taxed very differently from property you live on.

I think it's better to say that land is sort of a one-off that is treated differently from every other asset than to try to compare it to other kinds of wealth.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by truculent on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:44AM (#29497222)
Taxes aren't an objective truth handed down from on high; so, in some sense, all taxes could be considered arbitrary. In this case, taxing one kind of wealth more than another is a lever the state has to (dis)incentivise certain behaviours and thus create a better society (although in some cases, you may fairly ask - better for whom?).
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by parineum on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:41AM (#29494539)
>IMO the biggest issue with property taxes, land taxes, or any other similar idea, is that they arbitrarily tax one kind of wealth over others.

In theory. IMO the practical biggest issue with property tax is that it is usually spent locally, keeping rich neighborhoods well funded and poor neighborhoods poor.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by FeepingCreature on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:43AM (#29494555)
That sounds like you want a tax on communities, not a tax on land. Inasmuch as this is due to a location/group-based "neighbourhood value-add", it seems better to tax the neighbourhood as an organization than to tax the ground they happen to be on.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by parineum on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:37PM (#29500399)
Not at all. I'd just prefer more redistribution.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by pydry on Thursday December 09, 2021 @05:47AM (#29495974)
>IMO the biggest issue with property taxes, land taxes, or any other similar idea, is that they arbitrarily tax one kind of wealth over others.

Exactly. They tax wealth created by nature and/or the community rather than wealth created by individuals. The land Trump Tower sits on isn't valuable because Trump owns it. It's valuable because all of New York surrounds it.

A $5 million fleet of cars is wealth (mostly) created by human hands. Those human hands ought to decide what happens to them. Right?

There's also raw materials, but they would be subjected to a georgist tax too.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by whakim on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:14PM (#29505688)
> Exactly. They tax wealth created by nature and/or the community rather than wealth created by individuals. The land Trump Tower sits on isn't valuable because Trump owns it. It's valuable because all of New York surrounds it.

Yeah, but pretty much all private wealth is built on top of thousands of years' worth of accumulated community knowledge. The startup you founded wouldn't be worth anything if not for electricity, computers, and the internet.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by chrismcb on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:22PM (#29493800)
If I buy a hamburger should the sales tax depend on my wealth? The property tax should be based on the value of the property, period. If you want to tax mythical wealth do it via some other means. And whether the person owns the property outright or borrowed money shouldn't have any bearing on the value of the tax.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by hellbannedguy on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:35PM (#29493870)
I have felt for awhile societal fees/fines should be tied to income.

A wealthy man gets a $270 red light ticket. (This is the one where turning right on a red light is illegial. It seems like they arbitrarily decide which intersection to enforce?). The wealthy man casually mentions it over din din. Goes to sleep, and has the help drive his spawn to private schools. Yea--I live in a county filled with rich people, and they are obnoxious on so many levels.

To the poor man it might be part of his rent.

So yes--if I ran things; The wealthy would pay more at DMV, bail, patent fees, incorporation fees, etc., and especially property taxes. You want a third mansion so you don't have to look at your neighbors---get ready to pay Zuck.

I would love to see Jay Leno pay a $100,000 speeding ticket.

(I believe they are trying this in Sweden?)

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by CRConrad on Monday December 13, 2021 @02:36AM (#29537584)
> I believe they are trying this in Sweden?)

No... They aren't "trying" anything; it's been standard practice for decades, probably over half a century. Not just for speeding tickets, but many fines in general. And not just Sweden, but most of the Nordic countries, plus Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by bradleyjg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:35PM (#29493528)
Land taxes are far far more difficult to calculate than property taxes. Impossible to do well in some cases. To know what land and the buildings on it are worth you can look to what people are willing to pay to buy them. There’s no similarly straightforward way to value the separate parts. So you’ll end up with a lot more wasted expert time for a less accurate result.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:38PM (#29493537)
Nah, it's really easy to calculate the value of the land. Once you calculate the value of the land, then it's pretty much applicable to the whole neighborhood too. It's a one-and-done analysis. This isn't my opinion. There's lots of economic research to back this up.

EDIT: some support: https://www.progress.org/articles/the-implementation-of-land...

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by aeternum on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:10PM (#29493728)
This really doesn't make sense. Views matter for example, land with a blocked view should be worth less than land without the blocked view.

Land immediately adjacent to a golf course or park is often valued higher. Land immediately next to railroad tracks or industry, not so much while the discount drops off steeply just a few blocks away.

Water rights, drainage, soil quality, contamination, roadway access all matter a great deal for more commercial land.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:22PM (#29493802)
I agree that different factors cause some land to be more valuable than others.

I'd argue that the factors you've listed are relatively easy to factor into an appraisal.

Property taxes, in comparison, are really hard to compute. Each jurisdiction has different rules. There are different valuation methodologies. If you add a 2 car garage, what the useful life. What depreciation schedule should be used. How should inflation be accounted for.

I agree with your comment generally and am not sure what part of the original comment doesn't make sense to you.

EDIT: Reread my original comment and see your point now. I phrased the "easy" part too strongly. I mean "easy" in relative terms... compared to what's being done currently, but agree the wording wasn't great.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dsizzle on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:31PM (#29493852)
Yeah, and these features are easier to track than the interior of the house.

As an aside, I've often been surprised how little some of these features get valued. For instance, I've looked at neighborhoods where one side of the street backs to other houses and the other side backs to parkland. The nicer side is generally more expensive, but it's not a huge effect, and often homes on the bad side go for more money (because of the building itself).

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by gbhn on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:53AM (#29494284)
Ultimately wouldn't these rates be set politically? As in, there'd be one politician who says "raise the tax and do this" and another who says "lower the tax and stop doing that" and voters just pick what they want to happen.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dsizzle on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:07AM (#29494365)
Aren’t all tax rates set politically?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dnautics on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:42AM (#29497200)
> Property taxes, in comparison, are really hard to compute

Mark to market. If you sell your home, then that value is the fixed price of the home until the next sale event.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by cool_dude85 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:32AM (#29497720)
I bought my home from my pal for a dollar, and sold him my old house for a dollar too.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by _dain_ on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:39AM (#29497797)
Then you end up with preposterous situations like California boomers hanging onto property where the value (and thus the property tax) was last assessed in the 70s.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dnautics on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:50PM (#29501317)
this is a far better situation than rich neighbors moving in next to a lower-middle-class family and driving them out of the neighborhood by bringing up the assessed value.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by _dain_ on Thursday December 09, 2021 @03:50PM (#29502756)
Since rich people are rare, by definition this wouldn't happen very often. Unlike with the current situation in California where it happens _everywhere_. And such a lower middle class family would still be selling their house at a higher value than for which they bought it, so it's hard to see how they are being robbed.

And don't you think it's funny: we can't have rich people moving here because that would drive up land taxes, and we can't have poor people moving here because that would drive down the total resale value. I guess people should only be allowed to live among their exact socioeconomic equals ...

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dnautics on Thursday December 09, 2021 @07:39PM (#29505086)
you're neglecting the important asymmetry. If we fail to tax a rich person, it doesn't actively hurt someone, it may passively prevent some people (who would have wanted to move in) from having an easier time with certain life-paths. If you eject a middle class person from their home, you are actively forcing them to find a new life-path. Suppose that lower-middle class person is a mobility-challenged elderly person on a fixed income that is already being eaten away by inflation. Yes, sure, they get to sell their house at a high mark to market, but they have to suffer the hassle of finding a new place, which at best is equivalent quality minus income tax on LTCG, on an eroding deadline. That is a really shitty situation to be in.

> this wouldn't happen very often

Then, I suppose we would have no reason for the term "gentrification", if it's that damn rare.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by pdonis on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:35PM (#29493869)
> it's really easy to calculate the value of the land.

No, it's really easy to wave your hands and come up with a number that you claim is "the value of the land". But since that number is not based on actual sales of the land in question, it's just hand-waving. Not to mention that if you ask five different economists to do the estimating, you'll get more than five different answers. Much of the article that prompted this thread is trying to deal with this problem: there are so many widely varying estimates of land value, and no compelling reason to believe any one more than the others, because none of them are based on actual sales of the land whose value they're trying to estimate.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:42PM (#29493896)
I'm not sure I agree with this:

> since that number is not based on actual sales of the land in question, it's just hand-waving

Actual land is sold in a lot of markets. That sets a great benchmark for "comparable transaction" types of valuation analyses which tend to be the most reliable.

If one acre of land is sold, there is a great baseline for the whole surrounding area.

I passed all 3 CFA exams and agree it's not an exact science, but as far a valuation analyses go, this one is pretty easy. Valuing something like intellectual property, goodwill impairment analyses, 409a valuations are much harder.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by pdonis on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:44PM (#29493900)
> Actual land is sold in a lot of markets.

But much more land with improvements on it is also sold, and that's the land that all these hand-waving formulas claim to be determining the "value" of--not the total value of land + improvements, but just the value of the land itself.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by theluketaylor on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:11AM (#29498180)
The local cost of construction per sq ft to replace an improvement is reasonably easy to arrive at. So is the annual cost to maintain an improvement. Then simply subtract from purchase price. The toughest part is making sure the process isn't corrupted and some people get an assessed land value far less or more than it is actually worth.

It likely wouldn't work with real estate, but low cost motorsports has a simple solution to this problem. If there is a $1000 limit on the value of the car before all the standard safety additions, then the owner has to accept $1000 from any other competitor for the car. This massively disincentives anyone from undervaluing their race car as it will simply be purchased for way less than it's worth. In real estate this would just result in wealthy people snapping up anything they thought was even slightly undervalued. Maybe value purchases can only happen when challenging a valuation with strong court-backed protection for the owner to ensure the valuation has been applied justly.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by pdonis on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:53PM (#29501342)
> The local cost of construction per sq ft to replace an improvement is reasonably easy to arrive at. So is the annual cost to maintain an improvement.

I'm not sure I agree with this, since construction costs are subject to a lot of government interventions that distort the market.

> The toughest part is making sure the process isn't corrupted

Exactly.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dsizzle on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:21PM (#29493791)
This quote from your link contradicts a "one-and-done" whole neighborhood analysis:

>There would be an annual value assessment for each plot of land

It seems the OP has better examples of how it would be done than that link.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:41PM (#29493564)
Some evidence would be more convincing than a glib "nah, I'm right"...
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by epistasis on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:11PM (#29493743)
Oddly enough there was no evidence provided for the original claim, either. This despite there being many sources of this estimattioj laid out directly in the original article. The comment didn't mention why the original articles' various methods do not work.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnimalMuppet on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:03AM (#29494010)
Fair point. But to me, I hold the reply to a higher standard. Why? Because a claim can be interesting (in the HN sense), even without evidence. A "no it's not" is less interesting, even though it's also a claim.

Maybe that's just me...

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by TulliusCicero on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:39PM (#29493551)
Property taxes are already commonly broken down into the value of the land vs buildings, IIRC.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dsizzle on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:01PM (#29493680)
FWIW, I just looked up my own property tax records and there's no breakdown, so not sure how common that is.

That said, it is done for property insurance, so I think your point that it's already done stands.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lelanthran on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:07AM (#29494360)
> FWIW, I just looked up my own property tax records and there's no breakdown, so not sure how common that is.

>

> That said, it is done for property insurance, so I think your point that it's already done stands.

I dunno how useful that will be - my insurance is based on how much it would cost to rebuild the house if it burned down.

This lead to the comedic result that what I paid for the house at the time was about half what the insured value was. My property tax is calculated on the selling price, though.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:08AM (#29498150)
That comedic situation is exactly the reason your insurance works like that. The insurance company knows it's in your interest to burn it down and sell the empty plot so they only insure it in a way that prevents that.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by entangledqubit on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:25PM (#29493819)
At least for Seattle, the assessor's office has a breakdown but it turns out to be fairly bogus unless there's been a remodel or new building -- resulting in a new assessment. Quite a few cities also seem to have pretty bogus values on the books.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by skt5 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:45AM (#29497854)
The building value by the county assessor's office is considered a standard for depreciation schedules. While it might not be useful for selling the property or building it - it does have value for accounting purposes.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ukoki on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:15AM (#29497547)
What if you had a system where anyone can bid any amount on any piece of land. Whether the owner refuses the bid or not, the land is now valued at the price of the bid for tax purposes.

To avoid frivolous bids, bidders must place funds in escrow before making a bid which is then returned to the bidder if the owner refuses the bid or fails to respond within some number of days.

All bids are reported to the public although bidders can be anonymous.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by bradleyjg on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:19AM (#29497577)
Buying land that has buildings on it but not the buildings is an awkward situation that requires a further negotiation of a lease transaction to the building owner. Even if you could set something super complicated up with this bidding system I don’t think it would accurately value what the land would be worth empty.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by larsiusprime on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:26PM (#29493828)
Part III, concerning assessments, will post in a few days. Interested in your thoughts when that one goes up.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dsizzle on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:03PM (#29493694)
Isn't this already done as part of property insurance?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ineptech on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:29PM (#29493845)
Inaccuracy isn't a very big component of this; assessing the value of land and structures isn't perfect but there's no obvious reason to think we're way better at one or the other. The point of this is that taxing the land only would lead to land being used differently, which would benefit society.

Suppose there is a plot of land which (from some omniscient point of view) would offer maximal benefit to society if a four-plex were developed on it. The point of a LVT is that, under a LVT, a four-plex would be developed on it, not because anyone forces it but just because that's what's in the landowner's best interest; whereas under the current system (in which the structure is also taxed) the landowner might find it more profitable to build a duplex instead. The deadweight loss is the loss to society when the landowner builds something that's in their best interests but not society's.

That's hard to prove for any specific piece of land, since we don't know what the omniscient-view "right" use of the land is. But if you accept the idea that there is an optimal use, and you you trust the whole idea of free market price discovery, it's reasonable.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by dnautics on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:45AM (#29497227)
Inaccuracy in the end is a HUGE component of this. If you can't have an accurate value for the land, the long-run incentives converge to a system where the land value assessors have a lot of power, and could use that power to screw you over.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by bradleyjg on Thursday December 09, 2021 @09:16AM (#29497551)
> but there's no obvious reason to think we're way better at one or the other.

There’s a very good reason. Sales of buildings plus land happen all the time, whereas sales of just land are virtually non-existent in a lot of the places with the most valuable property (e.g. Manhattan). Without real sales to tether the analysis you are just guessing.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by ineptech on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:30PM (#29500303)
a) You're implying that we use sale prices to set the assessed value of property today; I believe that's often not true. I happen to have the tax slip for a property in front of me, the assessed value is about 80% of what I paid for it five years ago. Assessments are already inaccurate, because they're more a product of politics than science; a LVT wouldn't magically fix that, but AFAICS it wouldn't necessarily make it worse.

b) You may not be confident in your ability to distinguish the value of the land from the value of the structure, but your insurer is. If you want to know e.g. how much your home's value would improve if you finished out the basement or built a garage, they will go through it with you on the phone. Sure, it's something of a guess, but a very educated one.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:14AM (#29498219)
Buildings are demolished in Manhattan on a regular basis, granted not that often. There are real sales of empty plots.

Also if you know a building would cost $X to replace, but the plot with it sells for $X+$Y, you have some real information, not just guesses!

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by bradleyjg on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:01PM (#29499875)
How much would it cost to replace the Empire State Building?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:47PM (#29501285)
I don't know. I do know that 99 Church Street sold for $170 million, and was demolished, so that that figure is the land price (before adding back the cost of demolition).
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:04AM (#29498103)
Actually there are empty plots bought and sold all the time.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:36PM (#29493533)
> Property taxes can discourage you from using your land to its highest and best use

I agree.

> Land taxes offer the opposite incentives. They encourage you to make your property better.

But it doesn't make the converse true. At most, you can say that high enough land value taxes encourage making real estate generate more revenue, to pay the tax. But given the current economy's tendency to optimize everything legible and whisk away the surplus upwards, it's dubious whether being pushed harder into the economic grindstone is "better".

For a rural example, well separated houses on a few acres are much nicer than ticky-tack suburban panopticon developments (or even worse an HOA). It's hard to prevent the latter from occurring over time due to the economic gradient (eg parents die and kids want the most money possible, so they subdivide), but we shouldn't be pushing it through policy.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by TulliusCicero on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:53PM (#29493631)
> But it doesn't make the converse true.

It does work that way, though. Except it's not exactly 'better', but rather 'more economically productive', which may or may not be better depending on your value system and the specific cases that arise.

> For a rural example, a single house on several acres is much nicer than a ticky-tack suburban panopticon (or even worse a HOA).

Arguably nicer, yes, but the suburban hellscape is definitely a lot more economically productive.

> Economically it's hard to prevent the latter from occurring over time (eg parents die and kids want the most money possible, so they subdivide), but we shouldn't be encouraging it through policy.

This feels like an orthogonal issue to me, that US-style suburbia is bad. Though honestly the rural living you describe is probably no better. Oh sure, it's nice in some ways, but there's problems a plenty there too: it's more destructive for the environment per capita, and it causes problems with the intersection of the social contract and social services.

For an example of that last bit, look at the struggle with rural high speed internet. Arguably necessary for economic activity as well as educational purposes, but it's much more expensive to wire up and service super low density areas, and yet people in those areas have less money, not more. So you end up with either a) left to the free market, they have shit internet access, or b) people in urban and suburban areas subsidize them getting better internet, even though for most people there it's an explicit choice to have that lifestyle (as opposed to, say, the urban poor).

And it's not just internet: most infrastructure and services are harder to deliver in rural areas, and you can end up in shitty situations because of that. Even if you accept that it's fine for adults consenting to it, what about kids who grow up with fewer opportunities?

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:11PM (#29493741)
> the suburban hellscape is definitely a lot more economically productive

Neither dense suburbs nor rural suburbs are defined by economic productivity, because they're residences. If this shifts with work from home, their focus will still be on quality of life rather than packing people in as close as possible for more "specific revenue".

> the rural living you describe is probably no better

If you have to drive everywhere anyway, do you also want to be looking through your neighbor's windows? I do miss being able to walk many places (city living), but that isn't the density tradeoff I'm talking about here.

In general your arguments seem to be extrapolating from comparing urban to rural/suburban. Comparing rural and suburban directly, I don't find your points compelling. Going from houses on 1/2 acre lots to houses on two acre lots is one half the linear density. The costs of transportation and utilities increase a little, but aren't going to double - once you're rolling or trenching, going a little further is easy.

Furthermore I'm currently in a quasi-rural area with gigabit muni fiber, so I don't buy that argument either. Whether there is the political will to build out modern Internet access or suffer the extractive oligopoly depends entirely on the politics of an area.

> what about kids who grow up with fewer opportunities?

IMO kids in suburbia are the most caged in. Having to be driven anywhere sucks, but that's a given for both areas under comparison. Once you get past the nadir of suburbia, the increased space helps - kids in rural areas can go play outside, wander in the woods, build stuff, fly drones, etc.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mech422 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:19AM (#29494424)
>>Furthermore I'm currently in a quasi-rural area with gigabit muni fiber, so I don't buy that argument either. Whether there is the political will to build out modern Internet access or suffer the extractive oligopoly depends entirely on the politics of an area.

Our experiences color our views. I grew up in rural towns (<800 people) to cities of 15K people(! :-) ). Lack of services, lack of opportunities (library? yeah - 1 room of books from 1950), wandering in the woods was cool until about 12ish? then it was "yeah, I saw that tree yesterday..", not to mention I'm not sure how many parents these days would be comfortable letting their kids wander around - especially in 'desolate' areas ... Also, these were 'mill towns' so one employer basically employed everyone.

I ran as fast as I could when I was 18.

oh - and btw, pulling utilities can be quite expensive - 'going a little further' isn't always easy (or even possible).

So while a 'quasi-rural' (suburb with larger yards? :-) ) might be your idea of heaven, it doesn't necessarily translate well across the board.

In short, what people want/like or what is 'better' is pretty hard to get a consensus on.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:54AM (#29499764)
I ran too, from a suburban area calling itself a city to an actual city. And I loved the walk/bike/lightrail restaurant/concert/etc lifestyle. But ultimately if you want to get some relief from the rent treadmill (which includes "buying" shared walls with unreasonably high valuations), you inevitably end up back in less dense areas.

Suburbs are certainly not my ideal of "heaven". I feel like I'm being argued with by younger people still in the phase where they're in love with the city, extrapolating my points into general indictments of density. They're most certainly not. All I'm pointing out is that once you're already past needing to drive everywhere, having the space to actually do things and be left alone is much nicer than being packed up on your neighbors.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mech422 on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:38PM (#29500415)
>>I feel like I'm being argued with by younger people still in the phase where they're in love with the city, extrapolating my points into general indictments of density.

I'm actually an empty nester, and I took my car off the road like 2 years ago cuz I never use it. I put in a server room, electronics workstation, basic woodworking, and a bunch of 3d printers. Couple that with being in a small 'city' now (500K people) and I really like the balance. Plenty of space in the house (1700 sq ft), no huge yard to maintain, can get pretty much anything delivered, no septic/well to deal with. I'm very happy with how its working out for me. On the other hand, I think I only have a 7500sq ft lot (1700 of it covered by the house), so others would probably consider it small - especially if you want a pool in the backyard.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by throwaway6734 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:16PM (#29493769)
Who pays for the roads, water, electricity, internet, and postage that connects rural regions?
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:29PM (#29493839)
Well either way they're paid with real estate taxes. So the question is should someone on two acres be paying four times as much as someone on a half acre. Or the same as a 16 unit apartment building?

Cost proportional to area doesn't even make sense for utilities or roads (average distance only goes up as the square root), never mind straightforward per-resident costs such as public school or trash disposal.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sagarm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:51AM (#29494600)
Density increases the costs of public schools and trash disposal as well due to transportation.

The rural lifestyle is heavily subsidized by productive urban Americans -- telecom, housing, hospitals, roads, electric networks, and on and on.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/rural-subsi...

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:23AM (#29498331)
I said "trash disposal" for a reason. Rather than handwave that things cost "more" with area, the sane way to analyze it is in terms of their growth. Rather than talking in terms of lot area, it's clearer to discuss in terms of single dimension distance between houses (lot area ~= L^2), holding population constant.

Schools/hospitals/trash disposal/wastewater treatment - heavily proportional to population, with a negligible increase per area due to convenience - O(1).

Distribution (telecom, electric, trash hauling, water, sewer) - Picture a square town with a single N-S route and one E-W route per row of lots - O(L)

General transportation - The average distance between any two points also goes up linearly - O(L)

Roads themselves - probably the closest thing proportional to area, but that's not even true as in less dense areas it's easier to drive further in the wrong direction (say further east before being able to cut north). O(L^1.5) ? In the absolute worse this is O(L^2), but what else is?

Note that based on lot sizes I'm basically talking about denser or less dense suburbs here. Suburbs are their own hellhole regardless of density, but I've seen many developments with neighbors right on top of one another in areas that are otherwise more spread out. Despite the increased density, those developments are straight residential (no stores, restaurants, or even parks to walk to), and thus gain little from the increased density besides the developer packing in the maximum number of economic rent streams.

And tying this back to Georgism - what does that look like if you're a neighbor to one of these developments? The town increases their valuation to pay for the per-resident cost. Then it declares that your land is worth a similar amount. So you're either stuck paying the same real estate taxes as a multiple family development, or selling your house so another development can be built.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sagarm on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:47AM (#29499641)
Your argument about costs ignores the key fact that rural areas are far less productive than urban areas, and so cannot afford even the same per-capita rates as urban areas.

As for the land value economics of multi-family development in rural areas: it just isn't that important IMO.

However your described scenario seems like a great way for the rural area to become economically relevant by gradually building up a functional amount of density.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:14PM (#29500099)
I don't see how this "productivity" you're talking about is relevant to my point. The page you link is talking about the large scale urban-rural balance, not analyzing the gradient in a given region.

Cities themselves are obviously centers of commerce and concentrations of wealth - but it's nonsensical to extrapolate this feature as applying to slightly denser suburbs. If someone lives in the suburbs and commutes into the city to work, then all their "productivity" happens in the city. And obviously the more workers you can fit into a given area, the more work gets done (cf factory housing).

Furthermore, cities are inherently more interconnected and thus the activities there are more legible to the system, whereas rural work is less so - eg a couple working full time plus and hiring maids/contractors/etc to take care of their home creates a lot more cashflow than a rural couple DIYing.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by presentation on Thursday December 09, 2021 @02:03AM (#29494665)
In rural areas though the whole point is that the land isn't very valuable, so the land tax will correspondingly be very low, so feel free to do economically inefficient things like having a giant house in those areas - the cost of your building will probably be far more than the cost of your land, so in practice you're not paying 4x more.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by mindslight on Thursday December 09, 2021 @11:02AM (#29498949)
All the services still have to be paid for though. So unless tax districts get much larger such that each one includes a regional city, the rural/suburban taxes would still have to be significant.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by nicoburns on Thursday December 09, 2021 @08:38AM (#29497163)
> Well either way they're paid with real estate taxes.

Not necessarily. They could well be paid for by any other taxes. Income taxes, etc. There's no rule to state that certain taxes have to pay for certain expenses.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by lalaithion on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:45PM (#29493597)
That's not quite what deadweight loss is; deadweight loss is when you can produce apples for $1, but a tax induces you to have to sell them for $1.10, preventing everyone who would be able to buy them at $1.05 from getting apples.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by MrPowers on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#29493606)
I'm using the textbook definition of deadweight loss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:40PM (#29493558)
But if we go to a land tax, don't you have similar problems? Can you really say that land that has a 20-story highrise condo on it has the same value as the same land with a house on it? Because if you're going to buy the land - no matter what you intend to do with it - you get the land with the existing building.

So, if you want to disentangle the price of the land from the price of the building, then you're back to appraisers and accountants... and deadweight loss.

And:

> A land tax wouldn't impose an additional tax to the landowner for improving the value of their land.

How would it not? Do you just keep the land price from 1874 as the "value"? Or do you use the current price of raw land? What's the current price of raw land in Manhattan?

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by TulliusCicero on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @10:46PM (#29493602)
> But if we go to a land tax, don't you have similar problems? Can you really say that land that has a 20-story highrise condo on it has the same value as the same land with a house on it?

Yes, because we're talking about the land -- really, more like the geographic space than the literal land -- and not the buildings.

> Because if you're going to buy the land - no matter what you intend to do with it - you get the land with the existing building.

Okay. And?

> So, if you want to disentangle the price of the land from the price of the building

For property tax purposes I think it's already common to value both the land and the buildings and then sum them up for the total property value.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:43PM (#29493899)
Yes, they do that, or at least they claim to. Out where I live, they can probably come close, because there is still some vacant land out here. When it sells, you get an idea of what nearby land would sell for if it were vacant.

But here's a building across the street from Central Park in Manhattan. What's the land price? When was the last time that a vacant lot sold in Manhattan?

I mean, I guess you can go by the cost of the last place that sold with a building on it, and the buyer tore down the building. (Subtracting out the cost of the teardown.) When was the last time that happened across the street from Central Park?

So in the places that the land is already heavily used, this is not all that easy to do.

Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by larsiusprime on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:46PM (#29493915)
Part III goes into assessments in detail.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by DarylZero on Thursday December 09, 2021 @10:19AM (#29498280)
They demolish buildings in Manhattan regularly, then build new ones.
Re:Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal? by sokoloff on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @11:07PM (#29493710)
The last paragraph is how it appears on the property tax statement, but I think the assessment isn’t created ground-up, but rather more from a market price down, starting with a likely sale price as an input rather than an output and deriving land and improvements prices so as to sum the input figure.