News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by gerash on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:30PM (#29477115)
The most important factor is that on the internet local news media lose their geographical monopoly. So everyone can subscribe to NYT or WSJ no matter where they live. This effectively creates a winner takes all situation like in many other industries which get closer to a free market.

Add to that the fact that classified ads have been taken over by likes of ebay, LinkedIn, craigslist, etc. Basically the business model of the old newspapers have been disrupted and trying to blame it on popular targets like Google and FB is pointless.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by alex_young on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:25PM (#29477749)
> ...local news media lose their geographical monopoly

I realize what you're saying, but really, local news will always have a geographical monopoly.

Can the NYTimes or WSJ even think about covering local issues? How will investigative reporting function for say a local office holder or a local environmental problem?

To my knowledge the real problem is that the traditional business model supporting reporting has dried up. Running classified ads or selling marketing inserts is an obsolete practice. This doesn't really change the need for local reporting though.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by dralley on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:29PM (#29477797)
And the shift from local news to national news (cable and the internet), and news conglomerates created by private equity buying up local papers and gutting their staff, has largely not broken down any geographical monopolies, it has for the most part simply removed local news from existence.

And no, Twitter and Facebook are not suitable replacements.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by mfer on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:15PM (#29478322)
> removed local news from existence

Removing local news has created a hyper focus on national news. People forget about their local communities where a ton is happening.

This isn't good for local communities.

We need more focus on the local. Not everything is national.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by charcircuit on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:34PM (#29478509)
In the age of the internet local doesn't matter anymore. I'm now part of a community that spans the globe.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by edgyquant on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:53PM (#29478681)
This is completely untrue. You still live next a community and their politics effect you in ways they don’t people living hundreds of miles away. The problem is the internet convinces people they are apart of a global community and it’s all that matters. We need ways for communities to connect with each other that are modern and up to date other than following a local Facebook page.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by charcircuit on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:03AM (#29481738)
>and their politics effect you in ways they don’t people living hundreds of miles away

They don't effect me very much because the government mainly effects the real world and not the internet world.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by edgyquant on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:27PM (#29493099)
What? I’m saying the local government does effect you in every way while it doesn’t effect people in your online community
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by CydeWeys on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @06:07PM (#29479326)
High housing prices (and resultant inequality and homelessness) is one example of a big problem that is caused primarily by local politics. There are no nationwide or statewide laws preventing the construction of sufficient housing to meet demand -- this is all city-level zoning problems caused by local NIMBYs.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by charcircuit on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:02AM (#29481731)
If I buy a house I don't have to worry about housing costs.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by DangitBobby on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:49AM (#29482232)
Only if you don't give a shit about anyone else.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by foobarian on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:45PM (#29478603)
Yeah tell that to the mob when they block roads out of your town and come knocking to raid your house
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by charcircuit on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:02AM (#29481728)
Why would they do that though? As long as I have internet I don't need roads.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by egypturnash on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @07:25PM (#29479990)
I just wanna know where the hell local ads are any more, lately it really strikes me how much a megacorporate desert the ads on streaming services are are - where's the low-budget ads for the local mattress discount outlet with the owner dressing up in a goofy costume, where's the furniture chain with a jingle the owner's daughter (who is now the current owner) sang when she was six, where's the spots for local events, where's the local SPCA showing me cute shelter cats, all of that stuff? Those used to be scattered amongst the spots for global corporations. Now they're gone.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by gaws on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @10:17PM (#29480912)
> Now they're gone.

No. They all go to Facebook and Google.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by egypturnash on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @11:33PM (#29481284)
Aren’t those all text ads? Images at best? It’s a very different energy from Crazy Joe dressing up like the Statue of Liberty to invite you to the midsummer sale at Spatula City.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by londons_explore on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:50AM (#29481659)
Most online ad platforms allow anyone to start a video ad campaign with just a few bucks.

Not sure why smaller businesses don't do so. I suspect the targeting options aren't good enough to get "spatula city" good ROI.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by rootsudo on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:42AM (#29482202)
That's why Google offers free "certificates" and "Courses" in adwords, analytics and using their services.

It's more because small businesses do not know how to market or cater online, still. Sure there are a handful of successful ecomm shops that work in niche markets that work on word of mouth, and then there's the enmasse scale giants like Amazon that have their own marking departments.

tl;dr Tools exist, people don't know. Most common small business solution is to engage their web developer to do marketing on fb/ig and SEO.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by londons_explore on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:50AM (#29482841)
Most small businesses also don't do well with online advertising. For example, if a kebab shop near me paid $50 on adwords, they would probably only get $10 of extra sales.

Whereas if they print $50 worth of signs and tape them to every nearby street pole, they'll sell $500 more.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by KarlKemp on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:38PM (#29477899)
Sure, the few remaining quality papers can (and do) introduce local editions for markets other than their "traditional" home base. Unfortunately, the economics aren't much different than they are for the regional paper that previously covered the area.

I say "not much" because there might be a chance that people would appreciate the combination of local news combined with the national and international coverage that would be shared among all these editions. But that, also, isn't exactly new: it's what these "newspaper chains" have been doing for at least 20 years.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by varenc on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:32PM (#29478489)
My interpretation is people just care about local news far less than they used to? I’m in a semi-major city and the local news is only a small part of my news consumption.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by indigochill on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @05:36PM (#29479110)
Which is kind of weird, right? In theory if there are local issues, maybe you can get involved. You can't directly get involved in most of what you hear about at the national/global level (even though a national stock market means you can invest at the national level and thus you have an interest there, though your investment doesn't move the needle).
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by gerash on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @06:18PM (#29479417)
To be clear, I'm suggesting what disrupted the local media revenue wasn't all Google / FB.

And I do like local news. In fact I care more about city level issues close to home rather than following the bad soap opera that is the national politics.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by pkaler on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @06:41PM (#29479615)
> Can the NYTimes or WSJ even think about covering local issues?

Yes.

The NYTimes has a Canadian desk. Eventually they'll have a Vancouver desk. Eventually they'll have an East Van desk. Eventually they'll have a Main St desk.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by MR4D on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:19PM (#29478353)
> local news will always...

"local news" and "local news media" are not the same. I may pay attention to local news through google, facebook, etc, but never read the local paper or watch local TV news.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by netcan on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:11PM (#29477591)
I agree with most of this, but I suggest a 2nd look at the concept of free market. Free from what? Geographic locality? It's notable that Adam Smith's free market seems to have been free also of monopolies and cartels.

In any case, whether an open internet would have resulted in newspapers' bankruptcy is speculative... even though I share your speculation. What actually happened was that FB & google achieved control over who sees what on the internet, who earns ad revenue and how much. That is how their business models actually died. It makes sense to sue, lobby, beg or otherwise try to get what you can from them. There is no market, just them.

Maybe it would have happened anyway in a free market, but it didn't happen that way. What happened was that big tech took over content delivery and online advertising.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by giarc on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:40PM (#29477229)
Hasn't that always been the case? Even before the internet, I remember seeing copies of the NYT or WSJ on newsstands everywhere. I believe you could subscribe and it would get delivered to your door.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by athenot on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:56PM (#29477402)
I receive the NYT on my doorstep on weekends and my copies say "Printed in Georgia". The content does not vary, though.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by reaperducer on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:25PM (#29477748)
It does vary, depending on your region. My observation is that not all regions get extra content.

NYT papers in New Jersey used to have different content. I'm not sure if that's still the case.

West coast editions printed in Los Angeles used to have an entire extra section. The last time I checked, that section is no longer there, but there are other subtle changes. Like the weather forecast in the upper right corner of the front page.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by athenot on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @07:13PM (#29479899)
Ah yes the weather is specific to the South East. But I don't recall seeing ads for local businesses nor articles about local affairs.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by reaperducer on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:26PM (#29477765)
The most important factor is that on the internet local news media lose their geographical monopoly.

The other side of that coin, however, is that everybody knows the national news, but the vast majority of people know nothing about what's happening in their own backyard.

I'd estimate that at least 80% of Americans don't even know what days their city council meets.

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by Abishek_Muthian on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:04AM (#29482287)
> So everyone can subscribe to NYT or WSJ no matter where they live. This effectively creates a winner takes all situation like in many other industries which get closer to a free market.

Only that the winner alleged here is neither NYT or WSJ but Google and Facebook; So is it really a free market when horizontal monopolies eat others lunch?

Total gross ad revenue of Google & FB for FY21 in India: 23,213 Crores (~ 3 Mil USD).

Total gross ad revenue of Top 10 listed media companies for FY21 in India: 8,396 Crores (~ 1.12 Mil USD).

At the end of the day it's the consumer's loss, Traditional print media had strict editorial guidelines and journalistic principles. Now the digitized versions of them are in pressure to roll out content at an ever increasing rate as dictated by Google & FB for those ad revenue and So there's no need for journalists but just content-writers rehashing the title into short articles which are not even proof-read nowadays.

[1]: https://indianexpress.com/article/business/ad-revenue-facebo...

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by bsedlm on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:12PM (#29477598)
It's as close as they can get to suing the internet
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by gumby on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:56PM (#29478707)
If more than a metaphor then that is a good case for antitrust.
Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by onenightnine on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @07:42PM (#29480068)
old school media feels like its on its way out. which happens right? new ways of consuming content will almost always take a longer mind share than previous technology if the newer technology offers added value.

like radio is big, but before tv ad def before streaming it was king, now it is just something you listen to when you don't have internet access or are trying to listen to a certain show that is only found on the radio (very rare this days considering most radio broadcast can be streamed these days anyways).

a smart move would be to eventually move all broadcast online, like have backup communications (analog) for emergency situations but at this point it is almost a waste of bandwidth broadcasting local tv and radio channels. if that spectrum was reclaimed by internet providers we could fix the remote areas where internet is scarce, something we has seen is a must considering how many people are still doing remote learning because of the pandemic.

anyways that was a bunny trail, newspapers are great but realistically they waste a lot of paper and online is good enough, most people do not flip through newspapers anymore, it just a waste of resources in all actuality. i get why big media is kicking and screaming, but one could argue that its better to evolve than do business as usual.

if you are like me, we knew this was coming, we were the geeky people into technology when others were saying "what's the internet gonna be good for anyways?" we were in chat rooms building bots and talking to people from new york to people in uni in amsterdam, tokyo, auckland etc. they had an opportunity to listen and evolve with the times, not sticking up for google and facebook but there was def an opportunity for old school media to embrace a new model and they dragged their feet.

"stop slipping on pimpin'" is a street term similar to, "you snooze, you loose"

Re:Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, ... by KarlKemp on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @03:41PM (#29477935)
The NYT and WSJ were always available outside of their respective home markets. You would maybe get each day's issue a day late. But that still meant you got the same stories on the day the local paper reported on them.