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Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by yosito on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:22AM (#29172698)
Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property. As someone who has spent the last 8 months religiously degoogling my life, I've found that Google Maps features are incredibly hard to replace, while at the same time, giving Google direct abilities to influence behavior in the physical world. People see it as "just a map", but it's so much more. OSM-based map tools are pretty good as maps, but they utterly fail at being real-world information directories and functional tools for coordinating physical activities.

I do have hope. It seems that there has been a lot of new enthusiasm for these tools lately, and some of them have key features in development.

Two low hanging fruits: 1) location bookmarking features that can be synced between mobile/desktop with third party sync tools. 2) Link conversion features that can take Google Maps (or other map links) as input and open the location in OSM tools, and vice-versa.

The real-world information directory is a much bigger challenge, but if the low hanging fruit features are developed enough that the average person could easily use open source / OSM tools for everything except a modern phone book, while still coordinating with peers who use Google Maps, then we'd have a much better foundation for tackling the issue.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by m4rtink on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:37AM (#29172824)
The data directory part of OSM is being improved by an interesting way:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete

Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and onther important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :)

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by commoner on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:17AM (#29173454)
StreetComplete is a very user-friendly way to start contributing to OSM without needing to know anything about how OSM stores data. Looking up OSM keys/values for data entry can be tedious, and it's incredible how StreetComplete bypasses that completely. Most OSM editors work best on a large screen, but StreetComplete makes it quick and easy to contribute on mobile.

Another great tool for contributing to OSM is MapWithAI. It uses computer vision to identify the shapes of buildings and roads in satellite imagery, so that you can add them to the map with one click. The AI assistance considerably speeds up the process of adding items to the map, saving you from drawing them by hand.

MapWithAI is integrated with a fork of the online OSM editor (RapiD), which can also be used without learning about the technical details of OSM. If your area is missing a lot of buildings or roads in OSM, and you'd like to improve the maps, I encourage you to give it a try:

https://mapwith.ai

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by mfru on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:59AM (#29172966)
Thank you for this!

I try to use OSM as much as possible and this is perfect for me to contribute info on the go from now on.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by tablespoon on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:51AM (#29175186)
> Basicaly a gamified editor that makes it easy and fun to fill in opening hours and [other] important metadata while on the go. Frankly its almost addictive. :)

When I read your description, I thought that maybe it was an app that prompted you to take a picture of the operating hours sign at a store when you visit, then sends the picture to a queue for someone to do the actual entry. The actual app is entirely different, but my idea might allow even more casual users, like me, to contribute. I don't have time to play an AR game like that, but I could easily snap a few pictures or answer some simple questions when I'm on the go.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by m4rtink on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @11:47AM (#29176844)
The Street Complete supports that as well - you can add a note with an (optional) picture and many of the "quests" have that option as well.

In the past I have created a few of those ("gate is no longer there"/"way is blocked by trees", "there is a new ATM at this spot") and some of them have already been addressed (you get an email when it happens).

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by GekkePrutser on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:39AM (#29173218)
I think OSM is amazing. Way better at mapping than Google. When I hike I'm just walking in a green square in Google maps. OSM has every trail and hillslope etc.

But what OSM lacks is real-time integration with public transport. If my bus is slow or redirected Google will tell me. I don't think this can be improved by the users. It really needs a data feed from the transport operators :'(

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by yosito on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:05AM (#29173754)
Transportr is a decent Android app for getting public transport directions with OSM. https://f-droid.org/packages/de.grobox.liberario

Missing real-time service updates, but otherwise good.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by KronisLV on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:47AM (#29173266)
I've found that overall, for public transport, HERE maps is a feasible alternative in most cases, here's a quick example of how a route might look (though there is a mobile app available as well, IMO the performance is much better than Google Maps'): https://wego.here.com/directions/publicTransport/Riga-Intern...

Now, of course, Google probably still has more real time data in this regard, especially since it's possible for them to aggregate it due to a large amount of users and so on.

It would be nice to have more FOSS projects pop up that would deal with providing company listings and reviews on the map like Google does, as well as would provide more real time transport information as well. But hey, at least OSM gives us a really good starting point, the rest is a matter of building it and getting the data!

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by commoner on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:02AM (#29173352)
HERE WeGo is a great alternative to Google Maps. It works on Android, iOS, and web. Business data is pulled from TripAdvisor.

(The app store ratings for HERE WeGo are a bit low because they recently rewrote the app and the first few versions were unstable. The rewrite added lane guidance, which is a useful feature to have for driving directions.)

- HERE WeGo (web): https://wego.here.com

- HERE WeGo (Android): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.m...

- HERE WeGo (iOS): https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-maps-navigation/id95...

If the quality of the OSM data in your area is good, the best OSM-based apps are:

- Organic Maps (FOSS, simple interface): https://organicmaps.app

- OsmAnd (FOSS, loaded with features): https://osmand.net

- Magic Earth (proprietary, uses a non-OSM data source for address locations): https://www.magicearth.com

All 3 of these apps support both Android and iOS.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by Nextgrid on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:49AM (#29174072)
Watch out - it has Facebook malware in it. The app constantly pings Facebook in the background and includes device data (and potentially location data?).
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by commoner on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:53AM (#29174614)
Are you referring to HERE WeGo? I just did a network monitoring test run and I do see that it connects to 157.240.19.19 (Facebook) when the app is opened, but it doesn't seem to make any more connections after that. That is interesting and something I haven't noticed before. Thanks for mentioning it.

Exodus says that HERE WeGo has 1 tracker (Facebook Login):

- Exodus report for HERE WeGo: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.here.ap...

Organic Maps, OsmAnd, and Magic Earth have no trackers:

- Exodus report for Organic Maps: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/app.omaps/l...

- Exodus report for OsmAnd: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/net.osmand/...

- Exodus report for Magic Earth: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.general...

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by Nextgrid on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:10AM (#29174792)
I have captured traffic from the iOS app a couple years ago or so and saw frequent contacts to Facebook domains; this is indeed due to the Facebook SDK which contacts FB regardless of whether you use Facebook features or not (I definitely did not).

It may have changed since then and if so that's great!

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by commoner on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:17AM (#29174857)
I had missed some information on my network monitoring app (RethinkDNS[1]) and updated my last comment before seeing your reply! You're right about the connections to a Facebook server, though I'm only seeing the connections when the app is cold-started on Android. I haven't had the chance to test on iOS.

The Facebook Android[2] and iOS[3] SDKs are source-available.

From a privacy perspective, when someone compares Google Maps to HERE WeGo, the question is whether using Google or HERE (plus the Facebook SDK) would be more of a privacy violation. I don't have a good answer to this question.

But from a market share perspective, HERE WeGo is a minor player compared to Google and using it instead of Google Maps would help curb Google's market dominance in mapping.

Of course, if a free and open source OSM-based app is viable for your area, I would go for that instead.

[1] https://f-droid.org/it/packages/com.celzero.bravedns/

[2] https://github.com/facebook/facebook-android-sdk

[3] https://github.com/facebook/facebook-ios-sdk

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by Nextgrid on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:29AM (#29174970)
> the question is whether using Google or HERE (plus the Facebook SDK) would be more of a privacy violation

Well unless you absolutely never use Google (which is hard), you're better off using Maps (as they track you anyway from occasional usage), where as it's easier to never use Facebook (in fact all Facebook IPs are outright blocked on my networks) so it's better to not provide any data to them at all.

So for me if I had to choose I'd prefer Google (who probably track me anyways during occasional usage of their services) over Facebook which aren't supposed to track me at all since I never use their services (and since I avoid all apps with FB malware in them, I don't think they can track me).

In my case I use Apple Maps which works well enough for me. I wish OSM-based alternatives were as good when it comes to POI searching but in London I found that OSM is even worse than Apple.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by commoner on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:36AM (#29175042)
Apple incorporates OSM data into its maps for some regions, and Apple is also the most prolific corporate data contributor to OSM,* so I agree that Apple Maps is a great alternative to Google Maps. Unfortunately, it's not available on Android or as a web app.

* https://joemorrison.medium.com/openstreetmap-is-having-a-mom...

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by habi on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @02:58PM (#29179798)
DuckDuckGo implements Apple Maps on the web; e.g. see https://duckduckgo.com/?q=london&ia=web&iaxm=maps
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by thinkingemote on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:32AM (#29174997)
Apple uses (and contributes back to) OSM in many places.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by Le_Dook on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:21AM (#29174887)
Organic Maps has been my go to maps since it came out. Fantastic navigation features, and felt no different than using Google Maps. The best part? It doesn't any internet connection to work!
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by KronisLV on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:03AM (#29173361)
Thanks for the additional links, it's nice to have that many options!
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by weeblewobble on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @02:51PM (#29179679)
In Seattle at least, Google Maps real time public transport support was way behind an app called OneBusAway which was built as a graduate project by students at the University of Washington (https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org/overview/history/)

I had this app for at least a year before Google Maps released similar functionality. I still use it occasionally as the UX is better if you already know what bus stop you want to use.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by simonh on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:53AM (#29172936)
I’ve tried to switch to Apple maps a few times. Most recently was last weekend I used it for navigation directions. The problem this time was on Google maps your route in the display is annotated with small white arrows at the point where you turn off your current road on to a turning or slip road. On Apple maps you don’t get that, you just see a continuous blue curve with no visual indication where the turns are. Back to Google!
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by dkdbejwi383 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:23AM (#29173131)
The problem with Apple Maps is that it's just monumentally stupid, for lack of a better term.

I live in east London, and the other day I searched for directions to "Barbican", which is both a tube station and landmark in central London. My transport preference in the app is set to public transport.

Apple Maps gave me driving directions to an island called "Barbican" in the middle of the sea somewhere.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by ernesth on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:28AM (#29173518)
To be fair, Google Maps is also stupid:

I once planned in advance and saved a trip with intermediary steps ending at what it calls "Domicile" (its way of saying Home in french). The next day I open the trip and the destination is no longer my home but a place doing home cleaning close to my start...

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by gambiting on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:38AM (#29173213)
It's beyond stupid. It does the same thing for me, I'm in the UK, I search for something and it gives me a location somewhere in the US.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by janekm on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:03AM (#29173367)
I just tried and it came up with Barbican centre and Barbican tube, might be worth updating to the latest version as there seem to have been a lot of improvement on the London map. Walking guidance also works better in Apple maps for me (especially with the watch). Still I also do find myself using Google Maps a lot of the time despite preferring the Apple one on privacy / design grounds.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by runj__ on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:04AM (#29173371)
So, how was the island?

I've experienced similar things, seems like one of the simpler problems to solve.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by mrfusion on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @06:58AM (#29173701)
The worst part of Apple Maps is bizarre Yelp integration. I have to install an app and register just to see photos and read reviews?

Other than that it works pretty well for me.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by hef19898 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:20AM (#29173106)
I got rid of Google maps as well, the things I am missing are:

1) Search, Goolge maps is simply best in class here. Looking for whatever, Google maps finds the location or address

2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints

Have to agree, Google Maps for everyday navigation is just the best. Even if routing used to be better, IMHO.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by claudex on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:31AM (#29173168)
>2) Route planning, either I am too stupid but most other solutions make it hard to chnage the starting point or add waypoints

OpenRouteService work great for that, but there is no traffic prevision/live information. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/#/

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by gambiting on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:54AM (#29173301)
I think we'll have to have regulators step in at some point in another area - nowadays more and more cars are shipping with Android Automotive where Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav. So no matter how you feel about Google - you have to use their product to operate the car fully.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by smt88 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:42AM (#29174006)
> Google Maps are the main(and only) map provider for the satnav

Source? I've never heard of this. Maps has no relationship to the car's built-in navigation anyway.

Every car I've used with Google Maps has both, but you have to pay a fee to use the built-in navigation app.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by gambiting on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:27AM (#29174369)
As an example- new Volvos come with Android Automotive as the main OS, and the satnav is just Google Maps. There is no alternative built in. If you don't want google services then you have no satnav at all. Since the main instrument cluster also shows Google Maps if you disable it it just stays completely empty(only displaying basic information like speed and gear you're in).

Source: I drove one.

Second source: https://youtu.be/d8RJsXePE2M?t=28

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by smt88 on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @09:37AM (#29175051)
That's a car with "Android OS" -- it's not just some random car.

Complaining about Google Maps on that car is like complaining about Google Maps on your Google Home screen. If you buy a car that is advertised as having Google software, you're going to get Google software.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by gambiting on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:07AM (#29175368)
Yes, but my point is that more and more cars are scheduled to have this as default. So going forward it will be harder and harder to escape the total and complete domination of Google Maps everywhere. That's why I said regulators will have to get involved at some point.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by 555513 on Friday November 12, 2021 @05:52AM (#29198026)
Except that's also an issue with Volvo and Polestar being late at implementing CarPlay.

Renault & GM, both of which demoed their AAOS version, enabled both CarPlay and Android Auto, so you could use another nav "app" with Android Automotive via projection.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by amelius on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:32AM (#29173172)
> Google Maps may silently be Alphabet's most powerful property.

Except it's easy for a competitor to scrape Maps and build their own using OSM.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by y4mi on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @05:52AM (#29173294)
Except it's not. Apple has basically unlimited resources and tried. While it's a decent navigation option at this point, it continues to fall short wrt everything else if compared to Google maps.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by amelius on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @07:18AM (#29173847)
If you have unlimited resources, you can try to contact all business owners and ask them if they would like a presence on Apple Maps.

They didn't do that, so my conclusion is either they don't have unlimited resources or they simply didn't really try hard enough.

Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by mpalmer on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:27AM (#29174366)
If Google Maps was little more than a glorified business directory, you might have a point. But nothing else comes close in terms of features and user experience, certainly not Apple Maps.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by yosito on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:28AM (#29174380)
You missed the entire point of my comment, which is that Google Maps is far more than a maps app, and until competitors realize that, they're bound to fail.
Re:Google sends anti-regulation propaganda to small business... by blinding-streak on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @08:06AM (#29174213)
"Easy"